ChiDragon

Before we get carried away. Let me clarify something. What I mean by 'negative sense in every aspect' was how LaoTze view things. 1. In chapter 11, he puts emphasis on the space of the cup rather than the wall of a cup. He looks at the space of the window instead of the solid portion of the window. He looks at the space of a room was actually useful rather than the room itself. 2. He puts emphasis on "Wu Wei" rather than its complement "You Wei". "You Wei" is the doing and the Wu Wei is the not doing. Wu Wei was being negative of not doing, but in his philosophy he had changed it to positive by saying: Take no abusive action to interfere with Nature. This is what I meant. The negative aspect was being the opposite of what people ordinary referred. Thus LoaTze has a tendency to look at the opposite view of the normal people.

I don't know what to say. If it doesn't apply to some, does it mean it doesn't apply to all...???

Ok... Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course". Actually, it was saying not to harm interfere with Nature which was self explanatory. Marblehead summarized the secondary part very clearly. At least to me. BTW Marblehead and I are in resonance with the concept of Wu Wei. PS.... "Can you explain but also a chapter example or two would be helpful. I know that some suggest DDJ." I think I know what you are asking, but can you be little more explicit about this....??? So, I'll know what exactly that you are asking...!!!

If I understand you correctly, yes, it does apply to all in all applications. Nature was not excluded. However, nature is above all. Man should not harm Nature as primary and man is secondary. If Nature was harmed, consequently, harm will come the man.

Well, I think in LoaTze's thinking, he was more concern with the abusive action rather than the enhanced action. The enhancement does no harm but the abusive action does. Adversely, LaoTze likes to place his emphasis on the negative sense in every aspect.

This does deal or explain it in relation to man. The whole idea about Wu Wei was written for man to be natural. Wu Wei for being "let Nature take its course" is a principle for man to follow. It was LaoTze's way of saying to the rulers not to interfere with the people's life. He was suggesting rule with Wu Wei which means do not use excessive force or high taxation to burden the people. That was the hidden code in the Tao Te Ching.

只是静坐意守？那麼氣功如何介入？你始終都沒有給人們一個詳細完滿的解釋！ You still have not given me the overall and complete extensive explanation of "meditation". How about for once , put something in one paragraph or two.

由你的個人意見, 是否可以給人們對 meditation 一個完滿和貼切的解釋？人們已對你的那種「一無兩可」的答覆已非常反感了！ By your own definition, what is meditation comprise of...??? In Chinese or English, but please don't make it too general. General statement does not get the point across and it is very annoying to the people here.

The whole confusion of Wu Wei was started with the direct translation of the two characters as "non-doing" or "no action". The original translator did not know the philosophy behind the term Wu Wei(無為). So, one translated the meanings of the characters instead of interpreting it as a philosophy. Its translation as "non doing" or "no action" has been spread like a disease in the West and started to spread the "no action" philosophy on its own and multiplied out of control. Now, the "no action" philosophy is everybody's mind. When ever people have a chance to use it, they tend to build a story to tailor for their needs. To be honest, I did not know what Wu Wei(無為) at first. In modern Chinese definition, it means doing nothing or accomplished nothing. It makes no sense to me. So, I had bought few native books written by native scholars in interpreting the Tao Te Ching. I finally realized what it means: Take no abusive action to interfere with Nature. That was my last and best understanding of Wu Wei. Wu Wei is a patented term by LaoTze was being a neutralist, so the speak. Having the meaning as: Let Nature take it course.

Snap out of it. Go find Tao. Tao will tell you about being neutral about things.

在西方, "Energy work" 的意思是我們中國的「氣功」。　 "My practice is to apply the theory of Daoism into my daily life." 在這裡你的意思是什麼？　是個人哲學，還是氣功或是 "meditation"...??? 希望以後你在言論上有更清楚和令人容易接受的交代。

There was a big gap in communication between the East and the West. In the West energy work is the same thing as Chi Kung in the East. Lao Tzu, your don't speak the same language in this forum. Why wasting your time arguing here...??? Your practice is to apply the theory of Daoism into your daily life. Are you implying philosophy wise or Chi Kung or meditation....??? BTW From what I have gathered, meditation and Chi Kung have a big difference in thinking between the East and the West. Hense, it is pointless continuing with the argument. Continuous empty talks, 空口講白話, leads no where. Edited to add: PS... I don't speak the same language here neither...

There was this old saying: 邪不勝正 "Fallacies cannot defeat the Truth." Implication: The truth always prevails itself at the end. It is very easy to detect a fake Qigong master. If a so-called Qigong master says breathing has nothing to do with Chi Kung or Tai Ji, don't learn it from this one. If someone says Tao is the key to Chi Kung, don't argue with this one.

Just from a pure philosophical point of view: First we must have to consider what was being natural(Wu Wei). By LaoTze's definition, Wu Wei has no intent of any kind for being natural(let Nature take its course). In items 1 and 2, were there any intent....??? No, there was no intent. Therefore, Nature took its course which was natural. 3. It was not a matter of "Does the stream or boulder care or discriminate?" However, it was the intent of someone to push the boulder interrupting the stream flow which caused Nature to go off course. Thus it was not Wu Wei.

Not critical at all, my friend. I am glad that I have something captures your interest in.... I am glad to answer all these questions in a "Wu Wei" attitude, in a natural way without bias. 1. By observation, a river flows from the west to the east without interruption was considered "let Nature take its course". 2. If a dam was built on a river interfering the water to flow was considered that Nature is off course. 3. Item number 2 is one of your answers. All animals and plants are part of nature. If one kills animals and chopped the trees down or set fires to burn down the forest, these are the tings that will cause Nature to go off course. E.g., if a rattle snake was killed will effect the infestation of rodents in that region. 4. According to the point of view of LaoTze, you are something other than Nature. It is because you have to deal with Nature. You have to deal with the cold weather of Nature by wearing more clothes; and you have to wear less clothes in the summer. Human is a dependent on Nature to survive. However, Nature can survive without humans. Human has no contribution to Nature but destroying it. 5. The line is "Wu Wei" as LaoTze had defined. 6. All of the above. 7. Yes, as soon you took some kind of action toward Nature, you are interfering with Nature in some way, regardless of the outcome. I don't know does this help any or not....

I was always wondering about translating the character "善" as "good" or "kind"...??? To my understanding about LoaTze thinking, he would be more concerned about one who is "kind" rather than "good". Confucius would be the one who will have more concern about one who is "good" or not.

There is a difference in philosophy between LaoTze and ZhuangTze. LaoTze like to see things microscopically; and ZhuangTze is macroscopically. The good examples are illustrated in Chapter 1 in both of their written texts. LaoTze says: "Wu engendered by you"; from the invisible to the visible(microscopic). ZhuangTze say: "Big Kun fish tunred into a gigantic Peng bird flying 90 thousand sino-miles up; and flew from extreme north to extreme south. Hence, from high above and across looking down, it sees the panorama of the earth. Now it had seen the whole picture; the things are how tiny down below(macroscopic)!" LaoTze's writing style, first thing, is telling the principle. In the other hand, ZhuangTze instead telling the principle he tells a story. He uses a comparison from big to small to point out the big contrast of matters. Something gigantic for his big vision as compared to something small showing a narrow vision, e.g. the dialog between the cicada and the young turtledove. ZhuangTze used the cicada and the young turtledove laughing at the Peng bird in his example is for the above reason. The cicada only lives in the summer and disappeared in autumn; and it never live long enough to see the four seasons on earth. In addition, the young turtledove is only learning how to fly up and down the tree and have a worm for its meal once a day. Thus, it's very contented with the simple daily routine. In the contrary, the peng bird wants to fly high and go across from on side to the other to get a broad view of things. In this illustration, reveals ZhuangTze's broad vision of wisdom. The principle here is suggesting that we should open up our minds and have a broader vision in seeing things instead of just stay in little tiny area with a little knowledge and thinking knew it all.

The wu wei difference between LaoTze and ZhuangTze LaoTze: Don't interfere with Nature; and let Nature take its own course. ZhuangTze: Don't let Nature interfere with the course of my life; and let me live freely.

This may be one of the characteristics of a sage which was suggested by Zhuang Tze. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/21954-meditation-is-not-a-good-way-for-practising/page__st__400#entry316897

Meditation is only part of the cultivation of the mind. Cultivating the mind is, also, to find all the legitimate reasons to substantiate all the principles to avoid any confusion and free of any disturbance. So, the mind shall be cleared in the first place in order to be silenced. If the mind was perturbed, blurry, foggy, indistinct, or uncertain, then it needs more cultivation then meditation... Besides the logical reasoning, in addition, cultivation of the mind is to suppress one's temperamental nature to a state of tranquility.

運氣 Yun Chi(Yunqi) When I hear people talking about Chi Kung here, I was hoping someone will mention the term "Yun Chi". Anyway, Yun Chi is the key to Chi Kung. If someone can explain what it is, then one really knows what Chi Kung is all about. All Chi Kung practitioners should know what that is. Anybody would like to give it a try...???

Of course, without your presence, things won't be as relax as it should be....

Oh, I see what you did. You broke the character into radicals. That was how you make the interpretation. Now, I understand where you were coming from. OK....let's settle at that. I rest my case.

1. That is something new to me. It is not true. Yi is not a thing that was came from another thing. Yi is only a description like the "intent of the mind". Yi is only can be manifested by one's action. If you want to breathe, so, you breathe. Breathing is the action of your Yi. If you want to raise your hands; your Yi(intent) is to raise your hands. Even though you may not have raised your hands, but you have the intent to. The intent is your Yi. 2. It is very true but not originated from 1 as the way you have described. 3. Yi can be expressed as from our heart/mind/intention. Yes, but not Being. I don't want to brag that how much I know about my own language. I am not saying who is right or wrong. However, my presentation may have come out that way. I had spoken the language for more than sixty years, I do have the ability to distinguish any discrepancy in the meanings. Use your own discretion, if my comment contradicts what you had learned from your respectable teacher. IMHO If I read something that was different than what I learned before. I would review the contents with an open mind and determine which has more weights. In your case, I think you did. So, let it be and have it your way. Peace.

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