ChiDragon

Ok you won on this one. But Loatze still did not use any poetic style writing for the TTC as you had claimed. You may see some lines as quatrains but it was just a coincidence.

I don't mind taken your challenge of "the mission impossible." Do you know how much I went through in a book with the Chinese interpretation of each phrase in the TTC line by line. Each line was interpreted in the native language with lots of annotation. Even the term Wu Wei had a lot of explaining to do. Do you think just by saying "do nothing," you will accept that it is the principle of Wu Wei. It is because you understood the English translation of "do nothing" is the principle of Wu Wei. Come on, my friend Steve.

Yes, when we say "the sky is falling" doesn't mean "heaven is falling.

Wu Wei is the name of the principle. We don't judge the book by its jacket. You know! Do you know 無为 is elusive? Do you know why nobody understand it? It is because nobody in the world writes like Loatze. His style was so elusive, even nowadays, no ordinary person could understand it. Do you think that the people who translated the TTC really understand them. You think in one sentence will explain it all without any tedious annotation. The whole concept in the TTC was all about Wu Wei, 無为. It was Laorze's philosopher advocating all along. I don't see any translator had figure it out to mention it. It was because they were too busy translating the individual characters to write a book for sale. There are few Chapters emphasized on Wu Wei. Instead of translating by saying "do nothing," "non doing," or "non action," there were no place that anyone of the translators have explained what Wu Wei was. What have you learn from them about the concept of Wu Wei? Did you learn anything from their translation about the true meaning of Wu Wei?

As I recall, my argument was that Laotze did not use any special poetic style of writing.

Wasn't that after Laozte's time?

@steve 長得長, 長長, 長長, 長長 長1(zhabg): to grow 長2(chang): long in length 長3(chang): long in time 長1得長2(zhang de chang): It grows long 長3長2(chang chang): always long 長3長1(chang zhang): always growing 長3長2: always long 一行行, 行行行 Yi hang xing, hang hang xing 行1(hang): occupation 行2(xing): successful; OK If one occupation is successful, then all occupations will be successful.

Even you think so too. That was what the Taoist used for the Taoist cannon.

However, for a non-native English speaker, I had to read it five times to figure it out. Do you think that I got it figured out? It wasn't easy!

Yes, finally, with the help of AI I have found two. 1. 長得長長長長長長長 2. 一行行行行行 @DynamicEquilibrium Please help me to translate these two lines. Thanks!

Accurate has to satisfy both sides, since it is not, I would say it's acceptable. I would put it this way "heaven/sky" in the sentence.

Yes, my original translation was Therefore, when it is always not there(常無), one would observe its subtlety. Then, I had changed to read: 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale. Does the logic change? Yes, there is a difference between "always not there" and "always invisible". "Always not there" could imply that it has never ever been existed. Where "always invisible" implies that it exists but just not visible. Do you follow the logic? Don't you think that the mystery in line 5 falls into the mystery in Lines 7 to 8? 7. 此兩者同出而異名，8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，9. 眾妙之門。 7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,8. Both are regarded as unfathomable, the most occult and profound;9. The gate of all subtleties.

Chapter 21 Manifestation of the virtue of Tao 1. 孔德之容 2. 惟道是從。 3. 道之為物 4. 惟恍惟惚。 5. 惚兮恍兮 6. 其中有象。 7. 恍兮惚兮 8. 其中有物。 9. 窈兮冥兮 10. 其中有精。 11.其精甚真。 12.其中有信。 13.自古及今， 14.其名不去。 15.以閱眾甫。 16.吾何以知眾甫之狀哉！ 17.以此。 1. The appearance of great virtue; 2. Only trails Tao. 3. This thing, Tao, 4. It's dull and hazy. 5. It’s dullness and haziness, 6. It has images. 7. It’s haziness and dullness, 8. It has things. 9. It’s profusion and dimness, 10. It has the essence. 11. Its essence is real, 12. And promising. 13. From present to ancient, 14. Its name does not vanish. 15. Using it to observe the origin of all things. 16. I can recognize the original state of all things! 17. From it(Tao).

Chapter 14 The invisible Tao 1. 視之不見,名曰夷。 2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。 3. 摶之不得,名曰微。 4. 此三者不可致詰， 5. 故混而為一。­ 6. 其上不皦， 7. 其下不昧， 8. 繩繩不可名， 9. 復歸於無物。 10.是謂無狀之狀， 11.無物之象， 12.是謂惚恍。 13.迎之不見其首， 14.隨之不見其後。 15.執古之道以御今之有。 16.能知古始， 17.是謂道紀。 Translated in terse English... 1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless. 2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless. 3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless. 4. These three are inseparable 5. These three objects blended in one. 6. Its top is not brilliant. 7. Its bottom is not dim. 8. Its continuance is unnameable. 9. Returned to being formless(state of invisibility), 10. Is called a form of no form. 11. An image of formless, 12. Is called obscure. 13. Greet it cannot see its head. 14. Follow it cannot see its back. 15. Grasp the presence of Tao to see all existing things, 16. Able to understand the ancient origin, 17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

Chapter 1 is only an introduction of Tao. There is no use of playing a guessing game. Loatze used Chapters 14, 21, and 35 to back up the logic in line 5 of Chapter 1.

Okay! Let's evaluate your idea. The lines have a nice contrast, but it did not fit the logic of the first line. 5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary. The second line is the exact translation of the original text. The first line does not have an indication it was sensed. It only says when you cannot see it. However, the first line we can only observes its mystery, but not its inner. There was no inner or outer mystery to be observed. Hence, we can only grok its quale is because it's invisible. PS This is the close translation I can get. Unless, someone else can come up with another logical translation with substantiation are welcome. If anyone intended with an hostile attitude, then please don't bother.

The words of your choice are very ambiguous to me. However, for a non-native English speaker, I had to read it five times to figure it out. That you have understood of what the translation was saying. May I ask you am I right about that?

What does it mean to let nature take its course? I thought you are having trouble with Chinese, please don't tell me you are having trouble with English too? "To let nature take its course" simply means don't interrupt the course of nature. For example, the high way was built by blowing up the foothill loosen the support of the hill. As result, it was causing landslide, mudslide and the falling of bolder. That was considered the course of nature was interrupted. The TTC has four entities, human. earth, sky(heaven), and Tao. According to Laotze, human was an observer of the universe(天地) and follow the principle of the universe. First he lifted human out side of nature to observe what is happening in nature. Then, he threw human back into nature to cope with it. 人法地; human follows earth 地法天: earth follows sky(heaven) 天法道 Sky(heaven) follows Tao 道法自然 Tao follows itself(自然, ziren) Special note: In reading the TTC, we must do away with the self-center and broaden our vision and look deep into the TTC. We are just a spectator of Laotze and listen to what he has to say. It is not up to us to determine what we want him to say. Peace!

To translate these terms, one must have the cultural background of understanding. 天子 : son of sky(heaven); emperor To an English speaker properly would translated as "the son of heaven". To a native speaker would be understood as "the son of the sky", Of course, this would sound awkward to an English speaker. The idea is more important than what is called. The direct translation of 天子 is the son of heaven(sky). The actual implication was directed to the emperor. In the ancient Chinese thinking, earth was ruled by the sky(heaven). The emperor rules on earth, therefore, the emperor was sent down from heaven(sky) to rule on earth. 天師: Astrologer 天命: Fate; destiny 天問: Ask the sky(heaven); question to the sky 天地: Sky and earth; universe 理天: Principle of Sky(Heaven); Absolute reality 氣天: Spiritual world 象天: Material world

Yes, I grok your quale. I see that you learn fast in using the words. To tell you the truth, these English translations had missed the whole point of what TTC was advocating. The first time I saw the term 無为(Wu Wei), the translation was "non-action", "non-doing." The interpretation was do nothing to accomplish something. I saw the English speakers accepted it for granted. Even the natives didn't understand the term and thought do nothing was correct. I had done an investigation to find out the actual meaning of Wu Wei means "let nature take its course, do not interrupt the course of nature."

天 is sky not heaven. 地 is earth. PS What is the TTC all about?

People should understand the whole book before do the translation. You don't just jump into one chapter and translate each character. I would link all thoughts of all the chapters in my meditation! Thank you for your suggestion! Peace!

Something new that one understand. Why not learn it and add them into your memory? Why run away from it? A translation must be done as close as possible. It should not be done to please everyone. I am not making a book for sale. BTW The cultivation of mind is to increase and obtain more knowledge. Learn to accept things as they are rather than change them and move forward. There are lot of new things are coming in the future. Are we going to avoid them? Don't you think we should have some mental updates to do?

It wasn't a challenge. Loatze was only suggesting how to observe Tao objectively. Special note: We must observe the rule of Wu Wei. Loatze advocated everything to be conducted objectively. It is the principle of TTC.

Thank you for your thought! Good idea, but Tao is observable at this time, therefore there is no need to grok now.