ChiDragon

Exactly, suppose we interpret it both ways, then we have two interpretations. My question is which one do you think is more close to the idea of 同出而异名....???

Rainy_Day... Have you ever thought of 無 and 有 are the two different apparent states of Tao as defined in Chapter 1 of the DDJ...??? 「無」與「有」都是道, 只不過是同出而异名. Chapter 1 1. 道可道，非常道。 2. 名可名，非常名。 3. 無,名天地之始。 4. 有,名萬物之母。 5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。 6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。 7. 此兩者同出而異名， 8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄， 9. 眾妙之門。 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name. 3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things. 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale. 6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary. 7. These two come from one origin but differ in name, 8. Both are regarded as fathomless; the most mysterious of the mysterious; 9. The gate of all changes.

Yes...!!!

Have you seen this: http://www.360doc.com/content/11/1226/19/202674_175164206.shtml

You are being modest.... It you can get a hold of the Book: 老子註譯及評介, 陳鼓應著, it would be a very helpful reference source to understand the DDJ. I had it posted somewhere here in the forum. I need to go find it again for you. Maybe someone can help me too. Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, 洪上公 was an legendary figure as a Taoist Priest. He had revised some portion of the DDJ in his favor for the Taoist religion. Also, he interpret the DDJ to fit his needs. IMMHO Any definition by a Taoist(道士) are so esoteric, thus it doesn't have to be make sense to others. In your case, I will have to disregard his definition from a logical and philosophical point of view.

Answered: "Li Quan said: 'the significance of returning the elixir, it's based upon the Sacred Water in the Splendid Pool.' The Taoist priest 紫华 said: 'Letting the Lead enter the Mercury was called the Sacred Water, letting the Mercury dive toss into the Lead was called the Splendid Pool. Taoist priest 海蟾 said: 'It was known that the sacred water comes from the higher source.' Taoist priest 紫清 said: 'The Splendid Pool is at the 气海(Chi Hai).'" Note: 气海(chi hai) is an acupuncture point in the "lower dan tian" below the navel . Please note that the contents in this thread are defining all the definitions of the Taoist terms. Once ever in doubt, it's good to return here for the true definitions.

EXACTLY...How come I never thought of that.....

Guo Shu Gai Lun: 國術概論 <--- No translation yet Tai Ji Gong: 太極功 <---- Nei Jia Quan: 內冢拳 <--- http://www.pro-holistic.co.uk/Definitions/what-is-neijia-quan.aspx Xuan Xuan Dao: 玄玄刀 <--- No translation for the following books: History of Chinese Martial Arts by Xi Yun Tai 1985 Wudang Martial Arts by Masters: Pei Xi Rong and Li Chun Sheng 1984 The Secret of Training the internal Elixir in the Taiji Art by Zhang San Feng preserved by TaiyiShanren

First of all, I still don't know how do you interpret the DDJ. Secondly, in reality, there are Taoist religious practitioners do appeasing or seem to be communicating with these spirits which cannot be ignored in this discussion.

Rainy_Day... What I'm getting at is that the people who study the DDJ as a philosophy do not worship any god as the Taoist religion practitioners do.

It is in plain English. You can either interpret the DDJ as a philosophy OR Use it to interpret as dogma or canon for a religion as in the Taoist religion. However, as soon one was used it for religion purposes, the one is in the religion category forever. What I'm saying was that I'm in the philosophy category and you are in the Shamanism category but not both.....!!!!! Do you see the conflicts in thinking between us...???

Thank you for your compliment. Without going into a big argument, I do see some bias in your written statements. However, when you say Taoism, I don't know if you have 道家 or 道教 in mind. You see most westerners are mixing them up by using just one term "Taoism". To explain Taoism, it would be more explicit to express in Chinese. I remember, I had asked you to translate Chapter 1 in your own words. If you had done so, then it would give me an opportunity to see how you view the DDJ. People have to decide either using the DDJ to study the Tao philosophy or use it as dogma to create a Tao religion. It has to be one way or the other but not both.

I'm glad that wasn't witchcraft....

Sorry..... I tried to avoid this from happening; but it just can't be stopped....

Please don't forget, the five elements apply to something else, too, not just just the internal organs.

I don't think you have the fundamental understanding of the five basic elements. Did you know that the five elements were assigned to the internal organs in the TCM system...??? How are the organs interacting with each other were based on the five elements system. Do you know how the five elements are aiding and opposing theory. As I said, it seems to me you are applying all your TCM knowledge to everything. You just can't stay away from it. Can you...???

This paragraph is the most difficult to be translated by a non-Chinese speaker. 南伯子葵又问：“你偏偏是怎么得‘道’的呢？”女偊又回答说：“我从副墨（文字）的儿子那里听到的，副墨的儿子从洛诵（背诵）的孙子那里听到的，洛诵的孙子从瞻明（目视明晰）那里听到的，瞻明从聂许（附耳私语）那里听到的，聂许从需役（勤行不怠）那里听到的，需役从於讴（吟咏领会）那里听到的，於讴从玄冥（深远虚寂）那里听到的，玄冥从参寥（高旷寥远）那里听到的，参寥从疑始（迷茫而无所本）那里听到的。” 南伯子葵 asked again: "How did you obtained Tao?" 女偊 then answered again:" I heard from 副墨(the son of the written literature). The son of the written literature heard from the grandson of 洛诵(the recital). The grandson of the recital heard from 瞻明(the clear vision). The clear vision heard from 聂许(the ears drop). The ears drop heard from 需役(the diligence). The diligence heard from 於讴(the intuition). The intuition heard from 玄冥(the abyssal stillness). The abyssal stillness heard from 参寥(the high broad and far out). The high broad and far out heard from 疑始(the obscure and using Wu(无) as the principle foundation). Note: Most people treated the compound characters in bold as proper nouns but they are not. The true meanings are shown in (). Footnote: (13)“副墨”、“洛诵”、“瞻明”、“聂许”、“需役”、“於（ｗū）讴（ōｕ）”、“玄冥”、“参寥”、“疑始”等，均为假托的寓言人物之名。曾有人就这些人名的用字作过推敲，揣度其间还含有某些特殊的寓意，但均不能确考。大体是，“副墨”指文字，“洛诵”指背诵，“瞻明”指目视明晰，“聂许”指附耳私语，“需役”指勤行不怠，“於讴”指吟咏领会，“玄冥”指深远虚寂，“参寥”指高旷寥远，“疑始”指迷茫而无所本。

Modern Interpretation 【译文】 南伯子葵向女偊问道：“你的岁数已经很大了，可是你的容颜却像孩童，这是什么缘故呢？” 南伯子葵 asked 女偊: "How old are you, why are you look still look like a child, what is the reason for that? " 女偊回答：“我得‘道’了。” 南伯子葵说：“‘道’可以学习吗？” 女偊 answered: "I have obtained 'Tao'. 南伯子葵 said: "'Tao', can it be learned?" 女偊回答说：“不！怎么可以呢！你不是可以学习‘道’的人。 卜梁倚有圣人明敏的才气却没有圣人虚淡的心境， 我有圣人虚淡的心境却没有圣人明敏的才气， 我想用虚淡的心境来教导他，恐怕他果真能成为圣人哩！ 然而却不是这样，把圣人虚淡的心境传告具有圣人才气的人，应是很容易的。 我还是持守着并告诉他，三天之后便能遗忘天下，既已遗忘天下，我又凝寂持守，七天之后能遗忘万物；既已遗忘外物，我又凝寂持守，九天之后便能遗忘自身的存在；既已遗忘存在的生命，而后心境便能如朝阳一般清新明彻；能够心境如朝阳般清新明彻，而后就能够感受那绝无所待的‘道’了；既已感受了‘道’，而后就能超越古今的时限；既已能够超越古今的时限，而后便进入无所谓生、无所谓死的境界。摒除了生也就没有死，留恋于生也就不存在生。作为事物，‘道’无不有所送，也无不有所迎；无不有所毁，也无不有所成，这就叫做‘撄宁’。撄宁，意思就是不受外界事物的纷扰，而后保持心境的宁静。” 女偊 answered back: No, how can you? You are not the one that can learn about 'Tao". 卜梁 has the sagacious intelligence but he doesn't have the empty-lighted heart for it. I have the sagacious empty-lighted heart but not the sagacious intelligence. I want to use my empty-lighted heart to teach him; but I am afraid that he cannot become a sage. However, then is not so. If I use the sagacious empty-lighted heart and tell the one with the sagacious intelligence, it ought to be alot easier. I was still insisted to let him know then, I'll forget about the world in three days. I became silent and waited, after seven days, I forgot about the world, then I will forget everything else. I became silent and waited, after nine days, then I can forget about my own existence. Since I forgot the existence of my life, therefore, my heart can be felt like refreshing and brilliant as facing the sun. Since my heart was able to feel like refreshing and brilliant as facing the sun, then I can sensed the "without desire" Tao. Since I sensed Tao, then I can transcend beyond the past and present time limit; and I can enter the level of no life and no death. Since I eliminated life, then there will be no death; I can't stay with life because life does not exist. To think of it as a matter but Tao has nothing to offer nor to receive. There was nothing can be destroyed nor created. This is called the "Suppressing disturbance". Suppressing disturbance means it was not disturbed by external influence, then, one can maintain peace and quietness within the heart.

1. 候(hou) is a unit that the ancients used to designate five days which is analogous the seven days a week in our time. 2. 日有十二时: There are twelve time units in a day: 子、丑、寅、卯、辰、巳、午、未、申、酉、戌、亥 Each time unit is equal to two hours. 3. 五日六十时: There are sixty time units in a "hou(five says)". 4. 终一甲子也: At the end of the sixty time units or any units was considered as a "甲子(jia zi) cycle". 5. 以起火之际，顷刻而一周天也: 離卦(li gua, Fire) is the trigram on top of the Ba Gua. There are thirty days in a Chinese month, 12 X 30 = 360 days in one year(theoretically). Since they were using lunar year, there were few leap months in the Chinese calendar, thus it was not very accurate. Anyway, after one revolution around the BA Gua was considered one day(一周天). Note: all these terminologies are the thinking or believes in the Chinese Taoist religion. Some of the esoteric terms may not be understood by an ordinary person.

Rainy_Day... Thank you for your interest to have my collaboration. I do interested in cooperating with your translation. However, due to the time consumption involve per your request, it is utterly impossible for me to put my time elsewhere. If you don't mind, I would like to just jump right into where ever I see some discrepancies and discuss it with you. How is that sound...???...

Yes, they came from the same family WuDang(武當).............

You welcome, zerotao... I play Tai Ji. It is same as good as the baguazhang and any other...