ChiDragon

hehehe... Qui! That's EXACTLY what should have been taken place. What I meant was a Chinese character is a Chinese word. A Chinese word is a Chinese character; instead of a Chinese character is an English word nor an English word is a Chinese character. Is this Confusing enough for you.....??? Edited for clarification: The symbol 字 means a Chinese word in Chinese thinking. For example, To express an: 1. English word: 英文 字 2. Chinese word: 中文 字 PS... What I am saying was that there is no such thing as a "character" in Chinese thinking.

oops.........You beat me to it. In Chinese thinking, a character(字) is a word. Xie Jia was thinking in Chinese and did not make the English conversion in his mind. I knew why he wrote the "word" for character. ZhuangTze said: What does matter if we knew what it means and why was said it that way...??? I think ZZ Chapter 2, Section C says all. BTW I just finished the translation on it...

Talking and breathing are really two different things. The words in a speech has meanings, but only the meaning of a specific expression is different; and it is also uncertain. Are the words within the speech really have meaning or basically ever have any specific meanings at all? Someone reckon that there is a difference between the human speech and the bird call; is there any objection to this concept or not? Is it because that Tao is always hidden, then, is that why there are "real" and "unreal". The meanings in speeches are hidden too. Hence, that is why there are "right" and "wrong". Tao comes and goes, therefore, is it not able to describe it at the present? The meanings of the words were hidden in the sayings, is that why one cannot tell the difference between right and wrong? Tao is hidden within each little achievement; the meaning of the saying was hidden in the beautiful words. The conflict between the Confucians and Mohist was for this reason. One thought that a fallacy which was reckoned by others is correct. Also, one thought that the fact which was reckoned by others is incorrect. If one wants to prove that the fact which was reckoned by others is incorrect or the fallacy which was reckoned by others is correct. It's best not going into too deep in understanding its reasons. All matters have their external "that"; also they are having themselves "this". In using one's own point of view, really, there is no way to understand the counterpart. One must understand oneself in order to understand the other. Hence, that is why it was said "that" was from "this"; and "this" was also because of having "that" then it is "this". "This" and "that" are relative and mutually making each other to exist. All matters are so! One side is alive and the other is death, life and death mutually follow each other; one time they attract each other; and another time they repel each other. They were mutually aiding and opposing each other. It was because we have "yes" then we can have "no". In the contrary, it was also because we have "no" then we have "yes". For the same reason, sage conducts matter not according to his own wish but inquire the wish of Heaven and acted upon. Hence, "this" here is also "that" there; and in the same token, "that" there is the same as "this" here.

I believe, in Tia Chi, is how one applies the Yin-Yang concept. Yin is when the whole body doesn't move. Yang is when the whole body moves to support the movement of any body part. My basic understand was from the old saying and it applies to all Tai Chi practitioners. 靜如山，動如海 Still like a mountain, move like a sea. "You don't move I don't move; but when you move I move first like the ocean waves." I think it says all. Do we see anything that doesn't move when the ocean waves are moving...??? The concept of Tai Chi practice to have body coordination to support every move that the body moves to stay in balance. If the upper body moves and the lower doesn't, then the whole body is vulnerable to be off balanced. In push hand, the opponent definitely will take advantage of that.

What I meant was one cannot be anymore blinded than one already is....

Yes, another good use for it is to put it, upside down, over one's head.....

More monkey business... ZhuangTze was using the monkey story to suggest that one should look at a matter in all aspects instead of just one way. e.g. At first, the keeper told the greedy monkey to have three cups of chestnut in the morning and four in the afternoon. Unfortunately, the monkey only knew that the number four is greater than three. By its one way thinking, the monkey gets upset. However, its keeper look at it both ways, by reversing the order in giving the monkey four cups of chestnut in the morning and three in the afternoon, Then, the monkey was happy. The theme of the simple story was to advise one to be more flexibly in one's thinking. One should be start looking into matters from the same focal point to get a broad view of things. The monkey has a narrow vision which is very deceiving by itself or others. It is true that the monkey story is about "tao(道)". However, this "tao" is different from this "Tao". The character 道 is the same for both "tao" and "Tao". The Tao is the unspeakable eternal Tao of LaoTze; and the tao is the reasonable tao of ZhuangTze. Hence, Tao is the principles of Tao while "tao" is the reasons(道理) for the principles of Tao. ZuhangTze's tao was concerning with reasons, reasons within reason. As I indicated before, I had no idea what ZZ was all about. I am learning from scratch as I had done in the past with the Tao Te Ching. That was why I'm so slow going into the discussions here. I know I must get a good grasp of the concepts in Chapters 1 and 2 before I go into other chapters. I will follow the concepts of Chapters 1 and 2. The advices are to have a broad vision and look at both sides of the story from a distant perspective. By just looking at the characters and names to learn each chapter, indeed, it would be just like the narrow visions of the cicada and the little dove.

Good Luck......

One need to interpret ZZ by the story in each parable metaphorically. It's no longer interpreted by the superficial meanings of the characters as it was done with the Tao Te Ching. It is a brand new ball game with ZZ. If one still wants to play the pronouns and the characters, then one is not really reading into ZZ.

劉一明: Liu Yiming 劉翼嗚: Liu I-ming These two are two different persons. I cannot find Liu HuaYang

Here is my counter offer by adding one more sabre.

----- Personal feeling filter ON ------ ------ Personal feeling filter OFF ------ What was ZhuangTze suggesting in this parable...?? ZhuangTze used this parable to point out the irony about the ignorance of the monkeys. The monkeys are only having an one track mind. They were just concerning about a partial fact without realizing the final result was the same. Hence, that was why a sage always tried to avoid an argument, especially something is real minor, because he knew there is a way to compromise both sides.

If I understand you correctly, learning the proper names is only a point of interest. IMO, I don't see that has anything to do with the concepts as someone had suggested. Thus I would not make a big issue out of it.

Can Taoism change the world...??? LaoTze tried. It only worked for a short while in the Han Dynasty. Unfortunately, it cannot even change a country. Can it change the whole wide world....???!!!

Tai Chi Sabre

Tai Chi Sword is an advanced class for Tai Chi practitioner after the completion of the basic movements.

What was ZZ saying in this parable? I think he was saying that everything are the same to begin with. Things are united as one by saying that the wind is the commonality for all the sounds came from Human and Earth. If the sounds were combined, then it becomes the sounds of Nature(Heaven). ZZ's idea here different from LaoTze. LaoTze treated Human, Earth, Heaven and Tao are four entities. Indeed, ZhuangTze had Human, Earth and Heaven blended in as one Unity but Tao is a different entity. There was no difference between Human, Earth and Heaven, holistically, because their actions are started from the same origin. ZhuangTze was saying that all the actions are predominated by the invisible wind. Thus the wind is analogous to the invisible Tao. ZhuangTze was also suggesting that the human body is predominated by an invisible soul or the spirit of the body. The Human behaves differently from each other was because each person has an individual character as suggested by ZZ about the size of the orifices. As in concepts, the basic ideas are the same but people just look at them differently then argue about. In ZhuangTze's philosophy, if we start giving names to all things to differentiate them, then individual will be insisted on one idea and try to convince others beyond reasons. e.g. All flowers have a fragrance. There is no argument there as long people called a flower as a flower. However, if a name "rose" was given to a flower, then people will start arguing when someone said a rose is not a rose.

徐渠 and 田鳩 are proper nouns. There is no need to translate them.

How do you know that you are a butterfly...??? Perhaps the butterfly may be you today....!!!

The best place for meditation is where there are abundance of greens which are full of fresh air. Normally, there has an abundance of Chi.

Zi-Qi said: "You have heard of the flute sound produced by human? You might have heard of the Earth's flute sound. Perhaps you might not have heard of the natural sound of Heaven." Then, Zi-You asked Zi-Qi: "May I ask what is the difference between the sounds of Human, Earth and Heaven?" Zi-Qi said: "The sound produced by the Earth is called the Wind. If this wind was not blowing, it is still. However, whenever it blows, it's a big hurricane; then all things will be roaring. Have you heard of the whistling sound of a hurricane? The whole forest become astounded. That gigantic tree which cannot even embraced by hundred persons, it has all shapes of orifice, some like a nose, an ear, a square hole, a round hole, a pounding hole, a deep pool, and a shallow pond. When these thousands of openings and gaps were blown by the wind, the sounds seem like the flowing of the raging water. Some seem like shooting arrows; some seem like a scolding sound; some seem like a breathing sound; some like a yelling sound; some like a crying sound; some seem like the sounds of a valley; some seem like the grinding teeth sound. After the wind blow in the front, then it was trailed by the wind in the rear. Thus the little winds produce the tiny sounds; and the gigantic wind produced the big sounds. After the big winds are gone, then all the orifices become silent, again, in still quietness. Hence, one can only see the grasses are still swinging non stop. Zi-You said: "The sound of Earth was the sounds that produced by the orifices in all things. The human sound came from the tones of a man made flute. Then may I ask what was the sound of Heaven?" Zi-Qi Said: "This so called the sound of Heaven, it was nothing but the various sounds produced by the wind blowing the difference size of orifices. The tremendous different in these sounds was due to each individual natural environment, but who has the predominance to produce all these sounds?"

Original text: Interpretation in Chinese: Interpretation in English: Nan-Guo Zi-Qi was sitting down by leaning against a table. He looked up the sky and exhaling slowing. It seems like his soul and conscience were really left his body. His disciple, Zi-You, stood beside him and said: "What is happening? Is it possible to let a physical body to be like a withered tree,; and also the spiritual soul and thinking can be like dead ashes? Today, you sit by the table seems like it is not the same scenery as before in the past." Zi-Qi answered and said: "Indeed, wasn't the question that you asked is a good one? Today, I had forgotten myself, did you know that? If you have heard the human sound, then you may not have heard the Earth sound. Even then, you have heard the Earth sound, you may not have heard the Heaven sound, alas?" Annotation: If one have heard of one thing or another but might not hear them all. Hence, there is always a possibility out there that one may not have heard of to draw to a final conclusion.

A brief summary for this chapter. This chapter is about freeing one's mind with no attachment, with no desire but just follow the natural course of Nature. One should go beyond the difference in size, not attracted by materialistic means, detached from any expectation, but recognize the existence of Tao, attain to a state of unfettered. The state of unfettered is not a physical phenomenon, it is a matter of spiritual stratification. One should forget all the the following: merit, fame, benefit, and rich. One should withdraw the thinking about the contrast in sizes. There is no big or small, no life or death. Therefore, it can fulfill one's life with complacent, detached from all the trammels, and enter to the untrammeled state. The untrammeled state is an absolute freedom in the heart but not an external image. If one can detect the movement of all things and united with them, then, one can be accompanied with Tao all the way in the life journey. Hence, the feeling of harmony and comfort is considered to be having a true free heart as untrammeled.

This is only a pin in a hay stack. I have no idea what this chapter is all about, yet, without going into deeper reading.

I rest my case.