ChiDragon

Lao Tzu.... What your your definition of 無為（Wu Wei)....??? I would like to hear it from a native in mainland China....

Steve... Thank you for your humbleness. I have done some research last night. Since these are Chinese characters, I hope you don't mind that I go to its origin to find an answer. Let me consult with my electronic Chinese-English dictionary. Here are my findings: 1. 禪 a. 泛指與佛教有關之事物 a. Everything pertaining to Buddhism b. 指集中心志,思考真理的一種修行方法 b. It means to concentrate a thought in the heart; it is a cultivating method to investigate the truth mentally. 2. 坐: to sit (we have no problem with that.) 3. 打 a. 表示動作的詞（打掃）: the word was used to describe an action（to sweep) b. 互相爭鬥(打架): to fight each other（fighting). c. 敲擊(打鼓）: to beat on something, e.g. to beat on a drum d. 揰擊: to strike on something e. 振作: to encourage　e.g., 打起精神（to peak up one's spirit) 4. 打坐(dazuo) a. 閉目盤膝而坐，調整氣息出入 a. To sit in a lotus position with the eyes closed; and modulating the breathing pattern in and out. 5. 禪坐(chanzuo), by definition 1, above, it's a term used by Buddhists describing their method of meditation while in the 打坐(dazuo) position. 6. 坐禪(zuochan) the Chinese used this term to describe the action in progress while 禪坐(chanzuo) was being performed. Note: 1. The Japanese revered 禪坐(chanzuo) as 坐禪(zuochan) used as a verb description to mean the same thing. 2. 坐禪, the Japanese pronounced as "zazen", Since "zazen" was introduced to the west first, later the Chinese borrowed it back and used. Also, the term 打坐(dazuo) is very confusion in other languages, therefore, the Chinese used "zazen" to mean as 打坐(dazuo) for easy understanding. It was because, after all, 打坐(dazuo) does relate to 坐禪"zazen". 3. To make my point more clear, I would like to point out the difference between 打坐(dazuo) and 禪坐(chanzuo). 打坐(dazuo) requires breathing while 禪坐(chanzuo) requires both breathing and thinking(do real meditation). These are the original Chinese thoughts about 打坐(dazuo) and 禪坐(chanzuo). The Taoists only perform 打坐(dazuo) and while the Buddhist monks do 禪坐(chanzuo).

Steve... I only give you 50% credit for your comprehension in Chinese. I do have my reason for doing so. You did not understand the difference between 禪坐 and 坐禪. 禪坐(a noun) was the name given to the 禪(zen) process. While one is sitting down performing 禪, it was said to be 坐禪(a verb). 禪 was originated from India as you had indicated. The meaning was altered a little bit in the Chinese Buddhism philosophy. I don't have time to go into the actual meaning right now. Maybe I'll going into it in the future. BTW It is not wise to mix the Japanese term with the Chinese. The Japanese borrowed the Chinese characters to be used in their language. Sometimes, they altered the Chinese meaning to fit their culture. The characters in the Chinese terms sometime are reversed by the Japanese. If you want to be consistent, please stay within one language to avoid confusing yourself and others. Shall we conduct this discussion in a friendly manner, instead of accusing each other "you don't know this but I know that."

The man and Huai-jang do not know what meditation is. Definition from another thread: 2. Zen requires the sitting position as in Zazen. Zen was to be performed by a high ranked monk which goes into deep thoughts about Buddhism philosophy or other unresolved intellectual issues for enlightenment. After the issue has been resolved mentally from Zen, one had discovered a new idea or philosophy. Then, he was considered that he had been enlightened for a particular highest thought. If a high ranked monk became enlightened, then he may be promoted to become a Buddha. It is because he had attain to have the wisdom to qualify himself as a Buddha. PS..... Please don't jump on my case, I am only talking about the Chinese Buddhism philosophy.

How about ask "what" first before asking "how".....???

Yes, based on the consensus of this forum, it's better to talk to all the GOOD teachers there are. Then get down to the right definition that fits your need and start practicing. You will get lots of recommendation of books for you to read but do don't do it. If you do just don't tell anyone what you had learned. Otherwise, your definition is incorrect if it does meet the opinions of the majority.

What is meditation....??? Can somebody tell me in words...???

Thanks...!!! I thought somebody was really linguistic proof...

That's what you get for not getting into any argument....

bubbles... I am just realized I knew nothing at all... You all won.

hehehhe..... I am glad you have found a good teacher and had given you good information...

1. Yes, no harm done. Yes, but it is not tolerable in a Taoist environment if we were considered it is such an environment. 2. It is true. I do agree with you 100%. However, if we say what it is to begin with then we would have been saved lots of arguments. Anyway, I think this happening was due to a linguistic dilemma.

I grant you all for knowing the meaning of the Chinese characters. However, going by the superficial meaning of the character is not the way to go with conceptual matters. What it counts is the concept behind terms were used. FYI each character has its unique meaning, but in application when they were compounded with each other to form a term. The term forms a definition or a concept behind it. If one just by translating the characters without knowing their concepts in application, it would be just like practicing blindly and cultivating fanatically. Like Marblehead says we are talking about concepts here but not learning the basic meaning of the characters. I have no objection for your continuation of understanding the meaning of the characters without conceptual knowledge. PS... Can somebody help me to define what is "skeleton meditation" or "testicle breathing"...??? I believe I had seen thess terms somewhere in the forum.

Thank you... 沉寂如死的人是否也失去一切信心....？？？ A person with a dead heart, isn't it like one is without an confidence at all. 有時翻译只能翻意不能翻字. 不知您意下如何..!!! Sometimes, translation only can be done with the conceptual meanings but not the character itself. What do you think....??? PS... I knew it was coming, Aaron...

Since Buddhism and Taoism have different names, thus there must be a difference between them. From a Chinese point of view, here is how I had been introduced and understood throughout my life. I will borrow the word "meditation" for easy distinction and explanation. 1. Meditation in Taoism is called Zazen(打坐). 2. Meditation in Buddhism is called Zen(禪坐). 1. Zazen in Taoism was to do breathing exercise(Chi Kung) in a sitting position to absorb Chi for health reason and longevity. 2. Zen requires the sitting position as in Zazen. Zen was to be performed by a high ranked monk which goes into deep thoughts about Buddhism philosophy or other unresolved intellectual issues for enlightenment. After the issue has been resolved mentally from Zen, one had discovered a new idea or philosophy. Then, he was considered that he had been enlightened for a particular highest thought.

I see................

I knew I would have opened a can of worms............... But not just that, also meditation and zazen....

I can see that Lao Tzu is newly stepped into the western world. Please give him a little tolerance and bear with him. Let him learn and endure the western public. Thanks....

Perhaps another translation: 不可执以无为， It cannot be just carried out without accomplishment, 不可行于有作， It cannot be executed with intent, 不可泥于存想， It cannot just bury the thoughts in the mud, 不可着于持守， It cannot be just conservative, 不可枯坐灰心， It cannot be just sitting and discouraged, 不可盲修瞎炼。 It cannot be blindly practiced and fanatically cultivated.

May I suggest that everyone say something briefly, the way one understands it, instead of use somebody else's lengthy words. This is only a suggestion. Please forgive the unsolicited request....

You reminded me of an old saying: 隔岸觀火: watching the fire burn across the water bed. I thought you were enjoying that....!!! hehehehehe..............

What it bothers are these two statements: 1. The Tao Te Ching is not a book of philosophy. It is only the western people who view it such. 2. The Tao Te Ching is a treatise of shamanism, simply this if you understand the original Chinese as I have been given.

................................... Edited to add: Daojiao 道教 and Daojia 道家 were then, but it is now. And now-now it is a difference between east and west. A new notion: "Daoism, for me, is about becoming an authentic human being." Ok...I'll agree to stop all OUR BS to have 天下太平 ... Tian Xia Tai Ping "Great Peace Under Heaven" PS... However, I do regret a term such as BS was used in a Taoist discussion environment before a mutual agreement was reached....!!!

Chinese has no such term as "Taoism". It is either a religion or philosophy. I would like to invent tho words for the study of Tao philosophy(道學) like "Taology" and "Taoligion" for the Tao religion(道教). Of course, I'm only day dreaming.......