ChiDragon

This thread is about the history of Taijiquan. BTW 'Taiji' is also short for Taijiquan. There is no distinction between Taiji and Taijiquan here. Unless, one is thinking the 'Taiji' in the Yijing, then Taiji is different from Taijiquan; but it is in the complementary relationship with 'Wuji'.

Why worry about its nomenclature of the style...??? It was only a name and description. The effects of the practice do not change in any way....

"sacrifice your life" definitely was not ZZ's philosophy. He wants to be free of all obstacles in his life. That's what he meant by his own definition of "Wu Wei". English translation: Yet, let's follow the natural movements of all things. If it was not reliable, then let's cultivate the jing chi(精氣) within our hearts. That was the best we can do! Why should one purposely pay royalty to the ruler?! Perhaps we should, honestly and faithfully, just follow the destiny; thus this is a most difficult task already.

I thinking one is looking down, from 90,000 miles high above the sky, it seems nothing to be moving. Besides, it took the Peng bird to fly six months to get to the other border. You didn't wait long enough to see a change...

My personal translation: Chien Wu asked Lien Shu for help: "I had heard the talking from Chieh Yi. It was all lies without boundary. When he start talking, he goes off on a tangent and never return to the main point. I was very frightened about his words, it seems like boundless as the Milky Way Galaxy; and it was extraordinary and so remote from others. In reality, it was so unreasonable." Lien Shu asked: "What did he say?" Chien Wu explained: "On the top of Gu Ye hill far way from here, there is an immortal lived there, his skin is clear white seems like icy snow, the body is so soft seems like a virgin, he does not eat the five grains, he breathes the clean wind and drinks the sweet dew, he rides on the clouds seems like a fling dragon, he travels outside the four seas. His appearance was so devoted, he can free all things in the world from diseases and make every year to have a great harvest of the five grains. I reckon that was all empty talks and everything was unbelievable." After Lien Shu heard then said: "Yes! In regarding to the blinds, It's impossible to appreciate the decorative design and colors with them; and to the mutes, it was impossible to share the musical sounds of the bells and drums with them. Could it be said that only a physical body has mute and blindness? Our thinking also could be muted and blinded. This seems was addressing to you, Chien Wu. That immortal(神人), his virtue status was like so. He has blended in with all things together. With that, it was able him to take care the whole world. Then who would consider that involving with the busy world affairs was nothing to it. With this kind of person, there was no external matter that can harm him; the great floods cannot drown him; he would not feel the heat an eruption of a volcano. With any scraps of dust and crumbs of bread and grain as wastes like that, he can produce the kind of sagacious rulers like Yao and Xun, how would he be considering in caring for all things as his obligation."

Sorry that you have to rely on somebody's mistranslation. If you understand what it was said in the cartoon, then you wouldn't have such problem.

Hi Todd... Thanks for introducing the four basic characters for the spiritual descriptions of "spirits". May I add some descriptions in a non-medical field but just for the daily usage in the Chinese language in expressing some kinds of spirits...??? There are other meanings for the following characters. Since this thread is about spirit, therefore, I will restrict myself to the definitions pertaining to spirits to avoid confusion. Thus I hope others and lienshan will do the same... 1. 靈(hun2): a spirit like a ghost or god in general. 2. 靈魂(ling2 hun2): a free spirit roaming outside of a body. 3. 魂魄(hun2 po4): a soul of the body. 4. 鬼魂(gui3 hun2): a spirit of a ghost 5. 鬼(gui3): a ghost 6. 神(shen2): a deity or spiritual god. 靈(ling): In General, the character by itself, it is just a spirit. It was used as compound with the character 魂. 靈魂(ling2 hun2) is a free roaming spirit. When the 魂魄(soul) left the body, it becomes a 靈魂(ling2 hun2) as a free roaming spirit without a body shell. A 靈魂(ling2 hun2) is a ghost(鬼); a spirit of a ghost(鬼魂). However, 神(shen2) was not classified as a spirit because it is a deity which governs over the spirits. Normally, the term 神(shen2) was used more often by the Taoist religion while a Buddhist called his god as a Buddha. A Taoist may be cultivated to be an immortal then become a 神人(shen2 ren2). IMO a 神人 is a Taoist immortal who is in between god and human.

Kung fish turned into a Peng Bird: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/p/l1809135i10338818.html

A skilled cook was slicing an ox but not chopping it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBX7ZmmRtx8&feature=related

仲尼曰：「譆，若殆往而刑耳！夫道不欲雜，雜則多，多則擾，擾則憂，憂而不救。 "Alas," said Confucius, "I'm afraid you'll end up in trouble if you go there. The Way should not be adulterated. Adulteration leads to multiplicity, multiplicity to confusion, confusion to worry. When one is worried, one cannot be saved. 古之至人，先存諸己而后存諸人。所存於己者未定，何暇至於暴人之所行！ The ultimate men of the past first sought to preserve it in themselves and only after that to preserve it in others. Before one has settled what one seeks to preserve in oneself, where is there any leisure to attend to the behavior of a tyrant? 且若亦知夫德之所蕩而知之所為出乎哉？德蕩乎名，知出乎爭。名也者，相軋也﹔知也者，爭之器也。二者凶器， 非所以盡行也。 "Furthermore, do you know wherein integrity is dissipated and wherein knowledge is elicited? Integrity is dissipated through fame and knowledge is elicited by contention. Fame implies mutual conflict; knowledge is an instrument of conten- tion. Both are instruments of evil and not something for which one should strive. 且德厚信矼，未達人氣﹔名聞不爭，未達人心。而強以仁義繩墨之言衒暴人之前者，是以人惡有其美也，命之曰菑人。菑人者，人必反菑之。若殆為 人菑夫。 Besides, a person of substantial integrity and solid trust may still not gain the approval of others; a person who does not contend for name and fame may still not gain the acquiescence of others. In such circumstances, forcibly to flaunt talk about humaneness, righteousness, and codes of conduct before a tyrant would be to glorify oneself at the expense of another's failings. This is called 'hurting others.' Those who hurt others will certainly be hurt by others in return. I'm afraid that you'll be hurt by others! 且苟為人悅賢而惡不肖，惡用而求有以異？若唯無詔，王公必將乘人而鬥其捷。而目將熒之，而色將平之，口將營之，容將形之，心且成之。是以火救火， 以水救水，名之曰益多。順始無窮，若殆以不信厚言，必死於暴人之前矣！ "What's more, if the lord appreciates the worthy and de- spises the unworthy, what need is there for you to try to be different? If you do not offer your views, the prince will certainly take advantage to display his own eloquence. Your eyes will be dazzled, your face fall flat, your mouth mutter diffidently, your expression embody your submissiveness, and your mind will confirm it. This is to fight fire with fire, drain water with water. We may call it excess: If you are compliant from the start, there will be no end to it. But I fear that if you speak honestly to someone who does not trust you, you will certainly die at the hands of the tyrant 且昔者桀殺關龍逢，紂殺王子比干，是皆修其身以下傴拊人之民，以下拂其上者也，故其 君因其修以擠之。是好名者也。昔者堯攻叢、枝、胥、敖，禹攻有扈。國為虛厲，身為刑戮。其用兵不止，其求實無已，是皆求名實者也，而獨不聞之乎？名實者， 聖人之所不能勝也，而況若乎！雖然，若必有以也，嘗以語我來。」 "Of old, Kuan Lungp'ang was executed by Chieh and Prince Pikan was executed by Chow. Both had cultivated themselves as inferiors out of solicitude for their rulers' subjects. As inferiors, they ran afoul of their superiors, consequently their lords pushed them aside. This was due to their love of fame. Also, of old, Yao attacked Ts'ungchih and Hsii'ao, and Yu attacked the freehold at Hu. These countries were reduced to haunted wastelands and their rulers put to death. They were constantly engaged in war and always on the lookout for gain. These are all examples of individuals who sought fame or gain. Haven't you heard of them? Even the sage could not conquer the attractions of fame and gain. Can you? Nonetheless you must have a plan in mind. Let us hear what it is."

lienshan........No, no, no..... 姬 can be both an ancestral name and a first name. It happens to be the first name of 麓姬(Li Ji). Her first name has nothing to do with the ancestral name of another man. FYI Her maiden name was 麓姬. PS... I love you very much. Please don't do this to me again.

It seems to me that Victor Mair's translation is close and simple. I would like to use it just to point out some minor discrepancies. "Yen Hui went to see Confucius and requested permission to take a trip." Actually, Yen Hui went to see Confucius for his farewell for his departure to the State of Wei. The theme of the parable: If one is young and with power, mostly lightly he didn't know better nor how to handle matters in his present environment. Thus it's advisable not to give too much power to a young person in the vigour of his years.

Classic Text Modern interpretation. 麓之姬: A girl named 麗姬(Li Ji) is a daughter of a feudal king of the State of 麗戎(Li Rong). She was a captive of the Jin State. At the beginning she was crying and wetting her dress; but later the King of Jin treated her well by given her good foods and comfortable living quarter. Then, she was regretted that was crying so sad at first. This is an irony showing how people change their feelings and have different sentimental values in different situations. The confusing part was that the name of the girl 麗姬(Li Ji) has the same character, 麗, in the state 麗戎(Li Rong). 麓之姬: 麗戎 之 麗姬; Li Ji of Li Rong. <<--- The sentence structure in English and Chinese are reverse as in this case. Analogous to: 1. lienshan of Sweden 2. Charles of Wales.

麗之姬，艾封人之子也。晉國之始得之也， OK. It was the way that the phrase was worded. Yes, 麗姬 is a girl.... Sometimes, I see that the "之子" was referred as "the child of" instead of "the son of" . It was rare though. I hope we are clear on this, now, from our meaningful dialogue....

All translators ... Legge, Craham, Correa, Chen, Watson ... translates 'daughter of'. I don't know who was copying whom. IMO They are in error. 子: son 女: daughter. Please don't let these blind men lead you. Sorry, I do regret that he is not thoroughly familiar with the language. FYI... 王來: The king is coming. 王之來: The coming of the king; the purpose for the king's arrival.....was.....

ZhuangTze says: "Do not use your point of view to perceive the point of view of others." It was advisable to understand the person before making a judgment...

1. After Li Ji eating all the good foods on a comfortable bed in the palace, then she was wondering how silly she was crying so bad on the way to the palace. 2. Chang Wu Zi understood the bird language, he heard the birds said: "let's go eat the dead body under the tree by the river." Then Chang Wu Zi heard an old lady was crying while looking for her son. He told her that there is a body by the river. It was her son, but Chang Wu Zi was arrested for murdering her son. Later, he was exonerated because he proved himself to the officials that he heard that from the birds to locate the dead body. Confucius knew he was not guilty and a gentleman, thus Confucius was honored to have him as a son-in-law. 3. Zhuangzi was used the little story as an analogy for his next illustration: Everybody is afraid of death, ZZ was wondering is there someone ever regret for what he had lived for after his death.

Thank you for reminding me(a stupid native) how to read pre-Qin text. ....

1. I cannot confirm that Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is the same person as Gongye Chang 公冶長 form the ref-site. 2. Yes, 夫子 was used short for Confucius(孔夫子). 3. 丘 is Confucius original name. The character 也 was used to emphasize that we are talking about him particularly. It was not used to relate him to a family member. 4. Sorry, this is not the way we do it in the Chinese language....

Classic text Modern interpretation English translation of the above interpretation Ju Que Zi asked Chang Wu Zi and said: "I have heard this from Confucius's dialogue: A sage doesn't do anything that was trivial, he doesn't pursue personal gains; he doesn't evade adversity; he is not greedy; he doesn't make a habit become a rule; by not saying anything but it seems something has been said; by saying something but it seems like nothing has been said. Because of taking a journey outside of this world, Confucius thought these are flippant discourse, but I reckon that was the subtle practice and embodying. And Mr. what do you think...???" Chang Wu Zi(長梧子) said: "These kind of thoughts even Huang Di was doubtful, then, how could Confucius know about this! And you are worrying about it too soon; it seems like when you see an egg and then immediately you want to go to inform the rooster; and when you see a spark of the fire then immediately you want to reach for the barbecued turtledove.

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰： 「吾聞諸夫子，.....」 Ju Que Zi was asking Chang Wu Zi by saying: "I have heard it from the great teacher......" 1. I am not sure about that: using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship. 2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 was a disciple of Confucius. I am not sure about the son-in-law part...!!! 是黃帝之所聽熒也: Even Huang Di heard it and became vague, 而丘也何足以知之: Then how could Confucius be understood that.

I have heard it from the Master that he regarded as wild and excessive teachings that hold that the Sage does not strive towards any goal, does not pursue benefit or evade harm, takes no pleasure is seeking for things and does not stick to the Dao; that when he is silent he is speaking and when he is speaking he is silent, and that he roams beyond the world of dust. But I regard these as the practice of the marvelous Dao. 瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」 吾聞諸夫子: 吾聞諸: I heard from 夫子: a teacher, a nickname for Confucius because he was a great teacher. "I have heard it from the great teacher that he regarded a sage was not very serious in conducting his affairs, does not pursue benefit or causing harm, does not eager for pleasure, does not associate with Tao; ...." The reason that a sage wasn't serious in conducting his affairs is because he has gained his sagacious status. Thus everything he does, without additional effort, was already in the sagacious level.

天人合一 : Heaven and human are united as One.