ChiDragon

Be the TTC definition, any intention to cause harm to Nature or anybody(mentally or physically) was considered to be a violent action. The emphasis was placed on the intention rather than the action itself.

The answer to your question is no, not by a Taoist philosophy anyway. "Emptiness" is more like a Buddhist term. By LaoTze's definition of Wu Wei, it has something to do with an nonviolent action.

Hi, all It's about time someone ask this intelligent question...!!! "Wu Wei" means "doing nothing and accomplish nothing". That is the direction translation from this compound characters 無為. Again, by LaoTze's definition with his stand alone thinking and wisdom, Wu Wei was his patented term, so to speak. LaoTze had written the whole Tao Te Ching based on the concept of Wu Wei. Wu Wei was his philosophy which include all these meanings: 1. Let Nature take its course. 2. Take no abusive action. 3. Do nothing to interrupt or cause harm to Nature. Hence, his idea was always giving us the notion that he was more concern with the negative attributes than the positive.

Yes, -K-. This would have happened, most lightly, at a higher level of the Qigong practice, rather than at a lower level. However, there is one style called 自發功(zi fa gong). It could happen to anyone at a lower level if the practitioner doesn't know how the close it at the end. He may be ended up in the hospital. The western medical science doesn't know what kind of symptom that was and the practitioner will be treated as he/she was insane.

hehehe.......... There is no need to make any claims about your ability with the Chinese language. The reflection of the comments made by each individual will reveal his/her basic knowledge and personality. Even though you have claimed that you knew nothing about the Chinese language. You sure had me fooled. Based on your comments on some of your responses, I have to give you some credit for your knowledge on the Chinese language. About your Wu Wei comment, I knew it was coming. However, I can only try to be Wu Wei because I am part of the interaction, here. Perhaps, Wu Wei is more suitable and applicable to more serious situations case by case, so to speak.

We are going no where, aren't we....??? It is OK. Let's not talk about them..... BTW Those are not my own interpretations. They are only my translations of the interpretations of the native knowledgeable scholars. You can take it or leave it. I'll be Wu Wei about it. PS... Let's say I felt the same way about your Chinese as you felt about my English.

1. If I have a little bit of knowledge, 2. And walking on a big road, 3. I'm afraid that I might be going into a wrong direction. 4. The big road is leveled; 5. But the people, still, would like to take a small trail. Annotation: Lines 1 to 5 are carrying a metaphorically message. The "I" in line one 1 was referred as a virtuous ruler. The "big road" was analogous to a "big country". Finally, "take a small trail" is analogous to "taken a shortcut". The metaphor was: If I knew how to run a big country with a little knowledge, I might not know how to handle it and gone the wrong way about it. The country may be in order, somehow, the officials may take some shortcuts and ruin the country. Lines 6 through 8 were describing the condition of the corrupted government. Lines 9 through 14 are describing the small trail that the official took. As a result, the government was robbing the people like bandits. Indeed, that was not the way it suppose to be. 6. The government is corrupted, 7. The farmlands are deserted, 8. The barns are empty. 9. The officials are wearing luxurious attires, 10. Carrying a sharpened sword by the waist, 11. Enjoying a gourmet dinner, 12. Possessed an excess of exquisite goods. 13. They are considered to be bandits. 14. This is not tao at all.

IMO The spine gives you more support when it was in the arc formation.

Translations can never be consistent. Of course, "道者" is not "Taoist" in the classic text because it is "道者" and "Taoist" is only the translation into the English. IT IS IN ENGLISH ONLY, PERIOD. Why are we kept talking, back and forth, about apples and oranges. FYI: The native scholars had done exactly that and came up with the Received Version with consistency.

Chapter 53 - The corrupted government. 1. If I have a little bit of knowledge, 2. Then walking on a big road, 3. I'm afraid that I might be going into a wrong direction. 4. The big road is leveled; 5. But the people, still, would like to take a small trail. 6. The government is corrupted, 7. The farmlands are deserted, 8. The barns are empty. 9. The officials are wearing luxurious attires, 10. Carrying a sharpened sword by the waist, 11. Enjoying a gourmet dinner, 12. Possessed an excess of exquisite goods. 13. They are considered to be bandits. 14. This is not tao at all. 1. 使我介然有知， 2. 行於大道， 3. 唯施是畏。 4. 大道甚夷， 5. 而人好徑。 6. 朝甚除， 7. 田甚蕪， 8. 倉甚虛。 9. 服文綵， 10.帶利劍， 11.厭飲食， 12.財貨有餘。 13.是謂盜夸。 14.非道也哉。

dawei... I do follow your twisting logic. Actually, the words used by someone was only an indication of how less one knows. Of course, that applies to me too. However, if one wish to follow what others says inconsistently but still willing to accepted them fanatically, go for it. I have no problem with that. PS... The Received Version of the Tao Te Ching is no secret. It just happens to be not reaching to you yet. I had posted the original here, all the time, to show some consistency. Somehow, someone is still using some outdated copies but not versions with tremendous errors as baseline. Most of the time, you are not addressing the real issue instead you are playing some kind of games yourself.

I would say it is a level of understanding. It is obvious that "Waterist" does not apply here. Sometimes, things do work one way but not the other. What you are saying here is "水者" as "Waterist" which makes no sense in the Chinese language. In the case with "道者" as "Taoist" is very appropriate. I am no sinologist, let's say that I only speak and write the language for about 62 years. Fortunately, I have learned to type the characters on an English keyboard for 20 years. Furthermore, I had been studied the Tao Te Ching for about five to six years. My sources were strictly written in my native language. Thus, I did not have to deal with any mistranslation in English; but sometimes I learned some English words from the other scholars. I do admit there were some misinterpretation in my native source. However, I think I was stupid enough to sort them out. I'm happy to discuss and resolve any issues with anyone as long the materials were presented logically and legitimately; but none of this "Waterist" stuff. PS... I had declared already that I am using a Received Version of the Tao Te Ching to share my translation here. I had also declared that I am only translating the lines are being presented. If someone wish to bring the different lines from other versions, it will not be suitable for the Received Version. If one character has been changed, the logic of the whole chapter must be scrutinized. Otherwise, we may be going circles and tried to force something to fit.

道: Tao 者: -ist; -er 道 + 者 = Tao + ist = Taoist 道者: those who follow the principles of Tao. Those who follow the principles of Tao which are Taoists. 有道者: Those who have the moral principles or just "principles" which are Taoists. In ancient time or temporal, that is how "有道者" was used to express someone that is a Taoist in the Chinese language. Those who are not familiar with the language may not think so.

How would you translate this..??? 古之善為道者.

Thank you. I am glad to have you as my counterpart and catch my mistakes. Sorry. I mistranslated line 11. 11.曠兮其若谷； 11. They seem to be as broad as a valley.

Chapter 15 - The descriptions of the ancient Taoists 1. In the ancient times, those who practiced to be Taoists, 2. They were mysterious and esoteric. 3. They were abstruse and unfathomable. 4. It was because they were unfathomable, 5. Therefore, they were so difficult to be described. 6. They were suspicious seem like they were walking on thin ice. 7. They were hesitated seem like they were feared their neighbors. 8. They were cautious seem like they were guests. 9. They were affable seem like the ice is about to be melting. 10. They seem to be innocent like an uncarved woodblock. 11. They seem to be as broad as a valley. 12. They seem to be naive like murky water. 13. They seem to be quiet like deep sea. 14. They seem to be active as if they were restless. 15. Who can be calmed from motion then slow down to become cleared? 16. Who can become active from stillness and advanced progressively? 17. Those who kept these principles do not wish to be complacent. 18. It was because they were not being complacent, 19. Then, they can have some old ideas replaced with the new ones. Edited: Line 11 due to the mistranslation on the first attempt. Line 14: Corrected grammar per Marblehead's suggestion.

Chapter 15 1. 古之善為道者， 1. In the ancient times, those who were good to be Taoists, 2. 微妙玄通， 2. They were mysterious and esoteric, 3. 深不可識。 3. Abyss and incomprehensible. 4. 夫唯不可識， 4. Therefore, because it was difficult to comprehend, (4. Because, only, they were incomprehensible,) 5. 故強為之容。 5. Then, it was difficult to describe them, 5. Thus, it was difficult to describe them as. 6. 豫兮若冬涉川； 6. Suspicious seems like walking on thin ice; 7. 猶兮若畏四鄰； 7. Hesitate Seems like in fear with the neighbors; 8. 儼兮其若客； 8. Cautious seems like a guest; 9. 渙兮若冰之將釋； 9. Affable seems like the ice is about to be melting; 10.敦兮其若樸； 10. Innocent seems like an uncarved woodblock; 11.曠兮其若谷； 11. Stern seems like a valley; 12.混兮其若濁； 12. Naive seems like murky water; 13.澹兮其若海； 13. Quiet seems like deep sea; 14.飂兮若無止。 14. Active seems like restless. 15.孰能濁以靜之徐清? 15. Who can be calmed in motion then slow down to become cleared? 16.孰能安以動之徐生? 16. Who can become active from stillness and advanced progressively? 17.保此道者不欲盈。 17. Those who kept these principles were not complacent. 18.夫唯不盈, 18. Therefore, only not being complacent, 19.故能蔽而新成。 19.Then, it can be replace the old with the new.

Remember, LaoTze always use reverse negative logic. Please keep in mind! When he said: "Abandon knowledge" he meant "Abandon negative knowledge". Another word, "Abandon negative knowledge" means "abandon ignorance"

Wu Wei: Let Nature take its course. In the drowning baby scenario. Is that a natural thing for the baby to drown in the river...??? By doing nothing to save the baby, was that considered to be "let Nature take its course"...??? IMO To let the baby live is a natural course of Nature. How can we say that doing nothing to save the baby was considered to be Wu Wei...???

Then, a fool is a fool after all.....

WU WEI is not DOING NOTHING. The TTC definition of Wu Wei is: Do nothing to cause harm or interference was considered to be Wu Wei. BTW There is no such thing as "Guodian definition of Wu Wei". Wu Wei has only one definition, the LaoTze definition. There is no need to create any more confusion than what it is now.

Losing a fight by walking away from a fool was considered not to be Wu Wei because a fight had been taken place. Prevented a fight by not fighting was Wu Wei because no fight was taken place.

夫 唯 不 盈, 故 能 蔽 而 新 成 。 So, only when it was not filled completely, Therefore, the old can be replaced with the new. Interpretation: Only when one is not complacent, therefore, there is room for discarding old ideas and to be replaced with new ones.

Chapter 52 1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things. 2. If we've discovered its root, then we'll recognized all things. 3. If we recognized all things and held on to its root, 4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life. 5. Block its gap to desires, 6. Close its door of desires, 7. Then, there will be no disturbance throughout life. 8. Open its gap to desires, 9. Increasing its distractions, 10. Then, it cannot be helped. 11. Observe it microscopically, it was said to be comprehensible. 12. One can guard its softness was said to be strong. 13. Utilize the light(of wisdom), 14. It was considered to be the inner wisdom. 15. To keep one out of trouble, 16. It was considered to be following the normal routine. ************************ 52 1. 天下有始，以為天下母。 1. There was a beginning in the world, let it be the mother of all things in the world. 1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things. 2. 既得其母，以知其子。 2. Since we have gained their mother, then we will know her children. 2. If we know the root, then we'll recognized all things. 3. 既知其子，復守其母， 3. Since we know her children, in return, we'll guard their mother. 3. If we recognized all things and hold on to its root, 4. 沒身不殆。 4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life. 5. 塞其兌， 5. Blunt its sharpness 5. Block its gap to desires, 6. 閉其門， 6. Close its door of desires, 7. 終身不勤。 7. Then, there will be no disturbance throughout life. 8. 開其兌， 8. Open its gap to desires, 9. 濟其事， 9. Increasing its distractions, 10.終身不救。 10. Then, it cannot be helped. 11.見其小曰明， 11. Observe it microscopically, it was said to be comprehensible. 12.守柔曰強。 12. One can guard its softness was said to be strong. 13.用其光， 13. Utilize the light(of wisdom), 14.復歸其明， 14. It was considered to be the inner wisdom. 15.無遺身殃。 15. To keep one out of trouble, 16.是為習常。 16. It was considered to be following the normal routine.

無為(Wu Wei) is Laotze's philosophy: Be natural, let Nature take its course. lienshan... You are translating the characters but not reading into the philosophy of Wu Wei. Please do not judge the contents by the jacket of the book.