ChiDragon

Is there anybody have an open mind to answer my question....??? Please....!!!

hehehe.... You still did not answer my question....!!! PS.... Sorry, my comment wasn't aiming at you. It was to all the Tai Chi practitioners.

Go for it. I started with the 108 movement Tai Chi. It took lots of time and space, therefore, I cut down some of the movements just by repeating some of the simple movements. As the matter of fact, I had been doing some of the simple movements just by standing at one spot. In the meantime, I am doing both Tai Chi and sitting qigong. I've found it was very effective to build up my body energy. The reason I can do this is because I knew the basic concept about Tai Chi, why and how it works, after more than thirty years of practice and from lots of reading. It would be easier to learn Tai Chi, if you knew the basic concept. The Tai Chi principle is based on the yin-yang concept. So far, I have not seen it explained in English....

lienshan... Nice to see you here and there. I don't mean to dispirit nor to despise you. I know you are making a big effort in learning the characters, but IMO you are in desperate need for some proper guidance. If you continue to make those erroneous assumption about the meanings of the characters, you are really confusing the public here.....

1. Based on common sense. In Chinese, the Characters 名(ming2) and 明(ming2) were interchangeable in the ancient time. However, "name" and "understanding" are not interchangeable in English. IMO It would be a very poor translation if 明(ming2) was translated as "names". 2. If 明(ming2) was used, in the first place, for both Chinese and English, then the incredibly detailed in describing the nuances of the classical text could have been avoided and have less confusion. Hence, that was why a Received Version was introduced to eliminate all the unnecessary confusions.

Tai Chi practitioners... I am so curious about your comments. Based on your comments, it'll reveal how much you know about Tai Chi. Please comment on the gesture in this picture. Is that what you have learned from your Tai Chi lessens....???

Experienced as energy. I'll buy that. To me, I always thought the Experienced Energy as ATP.

You have a nice sense of humor... Here is the translation of the interpretation of an knowledgeable scholar 陳鼓應. 1. During the golden era, the people don't even know that the government had ever existed. 2. The second best, people are very close to and praise the government. 3. The worse government, the people are feared. 4. The next worse, the people are resented. 5. The government was untrustworthy, 6. The people will not trust it. 7. The best government doesn't issue decrees lightly, 8. And complete all affairs in an orderly manner. 9. All the people will say: for us that was only natural. Received version. 1. 太上,不知有之。 2. 其次親而譽之。 3. 其次畏之。 4. 其次侮之。 5. 信不足焉， 6. 有不信焉。 7. 悠兮其貴言， 8. 功成事遂， 9. 百姓皆謂我自然

I guess people just can't run away with the notion that Chi is not "ENERGY". No matter how hard I tried....

Yes, it takes one to know one.

oops.... Sorry, my bad English. I misinterpreted "extraneous" and thought it was "strenuous". Maybe this was the cause of your sore in the muscles. Smoking this kind of stuff may deplete all the oxygen in your body. For the same reason, your glucose turns into lactate due to hypoxia and causing the soreness in the muscles. That's all I can think of it is the marijuana was doing something undesirable inside your body. IMO Energy should not have any adverse effect on your body but make it better. It seems to me that you have lots of toxin in your body. Why don't you try to stop smoking that stuff and see what happens...???

1. When you do Chi Kung(vipassana or samatha), it was detoxicating your body. The bubbles were the toxin that your body wants to get rid of. 2. The bubbles formed around your wrist, it means your body was going through a healing process. Your white blood cells were repairing your damaged tissues. The little bubbles are the liquids leaked from the damaged body cells. 3. The soreness in your muscles was due to your extraneous physical activity. It was because your muscles had used up all the oxygen and the glucose was turned into lactic acid or lactate. Lactate will cause soreness in the muscle until your oxygen debt was paid back to the muscles. 4. It is not healthy for your body. In order to prevent the soreness just do your extraneous physical activity moderately or don't do it at all but just do Chi Kung only. Chi Kung will provide ample of oxygen to your body to prevent hypoxia, lack of oxygen, in the muscles.

氣(chi), in the west, was only known or translated as energy. Unfortunately, the character was abide by the sole definition restricting to move forward for other explanations. If the character was traced back to its root, then, its multi-definition may be more versatile to be used in other fields. Its usage in the meaning of the character in the Chinese society is not very clear. The most common meaning in an ordinary daily life, it means 'air.' When a TCM practitioner says your chi is low, then, that is where the confusion starts. It didn't mean as air for sure but most people took it as chi without clarity. Unfortunately, when a chi kung master use the term to explain what it is, most people would think of it as the chi term in TCM. Despite to the simplified Characters, there are three basic characters for chi in the Chinese language which are 气(Chi), 炁(chi) and 氣(chi). 气(chi) is the ancient character for air. 炁(chi) is an ancient character with the meaning as the primordial substance which is the basic essence of all matters. The essential chi comprised of the yin-yang chi as a whole. In order for matter to be formed, the yin-chi(yin substance) and yang-chi(yang substance) must react together and become a harmonized chi. 氣(chi) is a character with multi-definition. Its meaning depends how and where was used and applied in different fields. This character was used, in the modern time, almost anywhere without an explicit definition. That's why it was so confusing around the world. To a Taoist with the notion of preserving life, 炁(chi) is the energy source within the human body. After breathing and taking the nourishment, it becomes 氣(chi) as human energy or body strength. 氣(chi) in TCM(Traditional Chinese Medicine), it means the functional activities of the organs. For example, when the TCM practitioner says that the liver chi was clogged, it simply means that the functional activities of the liver has come to a halt. When the liver chi was low, it was said to be that the liver is malfunction or not functioning to its full capacity. 氣(chi) in Chi Kung, the character by itself means 'air.' When compound with 功(Kung), chi means breathing; and Chi Kung means the ultimate method of breathing to be practiced or cultivated to its perfection. By the way, the tremendous energy in the human body resulted from Chi Kung was by the biochemical reaction of the functional activities of the organs. In western term, the bio-energy was known as adenosine triphosophate(ATP). In this case, the bio-energy can be referred as the chi-energy in the body. Nowadays, the modern Chinese are trying distinguish the two characters by defining 炁(chi) as energy and 氣(chi) as air or gaseous substance.

I am thinking the same that the horses were returned to the farms after the war. Ｔhe commentary of my source: 陳鼓應：卻：　屏去，退回(returned)。 吳澄說:「卻，退也(it's return」 Ref: http://www.doc88.com/p-99425151684.html Point the mouse to the bottom of the screen to download first. Go to page 二四四(page 244). For those who read Chinese, scroll to Chapter 46 or other chapters for future references. It makes very interesting in studying the Tao Te Ching.

A little over kill for a small chapter in the TTC, don't you think...???

dawei.... I preferred this approach. As long one display the original characters, regardless of what version that the translator was using, I can relate to the translation without guessing. Your translation of Chapter 17 reflects and in sync with the classic text. Indeed, it went so smooth that I do not have any comment to make.

Yes, I couldn't agree more on your last thought. It seems Henricks didn't know the Characters 名(ming1) and 明(ming2) were interchangeable in the ancient time. Otherwise, he would have had translated differently. BTW I've just found that out myself from my source, today, since dawei had brought this up to my attention.

Wang Bi 1: (Classic version) 5. 不見而名 (Wang Bi's commentary confirms he used this) Wang Bi 2: (unknown source altering the Wang Bi) Received Version 5. 不見而明(Without looking but understands)<---- exact direct translation. It sounds awkward. Yes, that's exactly how awkward it sounds in the Classic Chinese; and to a modern Chinese too. Why can't we make the English sound exactly like the Classic Text...??? So nothing gets lost in the translations. Line 5 was meant to say "Understood without looking." The character 明(ming2) means "to understand" in Modern Chinese. Any modern native would know what that means right away. In the other hand, 名(ming2) it's really meaningless within context without further explanation. PS... As I indicated before, I am working with a Received Version which used Wang Bi as basis. All the characters were corrected by logical interpretation within context. It seems to me it would be more feasible to work with to convey the thoughts of the TTC instead of jumping back and forth over the different versions. Indeed, that will save lots of time and explaining.

My problem with working with translations, there are too many unknown hidden factors which can be misled by the translators. We don't know what version they were using, and how familiar with the historical and cultural background of the original language. Sometimes, some of the translators were making lots of erroneous assumptions by using thinking from their own cultural background. In addition, they tend to use the only available sources in their language. Some of the information that they are using may be misinformed or misleading due the mistranslation and some missing pieces. My question is what could be more accurate than the original source...??? BTW... My native source indicated that both characters 名(ming2)and 明(ming2) were interchangeable in classic text. That is more acceptable then just taken it for granted. 1. 不見而明(Without peeking but understands)。 2. 不見而名(Names without seeing)。 IMO Line 1 seems to me is more logical and makes more sense. Besides, I don't think this was the case to blame on the terse English.

Chapter 47 1. Without stepping out the door, knowing the principles of the world. 2. Without looking out the window, seeing the principles of Nature. 3. One travels farther, 4. One comprehends less. 5. Therefore, a sage, 6. Without traveling but foresees. 7. Without peeking but understands. 8. Without hasten but accomplishes. Chapter 47 of Wang Bi 1. 不出戶知天下。 2. 不闚牖見天道。 3. 其出彌遠， 4. 其知彌少。 5. 是以聖人 6. 不行而知。 7. 不見而明。 8. 不為而成。

Robert G. Henricks 1. No need to leave your door to know the whole world; 2. No need to peer through your windows to know the Way of Heaven. 3. The farther you go, the less you know. 4. Therefore the Sage knows without going, 5. Names without seeing, <------------- He lost me here...??? 6. And completes without doing a thing.

I always tried not the contribute more than what it had been offered....

The three treasures of the body are jing, chi and shen(精氣神). These three terms are related to the physical body. Disregard what have you leaned about these characters in the past. Here is the simplest description that I can put it. jing(精) is related to the physical strength of the body. chi(氣) is related to the physical function of the body. shen(神) is related to the physical appearance of the body. In preserving one's body for longevity, a body must be in good physical condition, functional and good appearance. These are the technical terms used by the Taoist Chi Kung practitioners for describing the physical condition of the body. These are the combination of the body conditions that muse be maintained, in order, to have a state of homeostasis.

Anyway, in jing, chi and shen(精氣神), 神(shen) has a complete different meaning than "spirit" here. It was just too confusing to explain it because too many of you already has some ideas about this character. The usage of the character in different field has a different meaning. If one try to mix them together and applied all in one, then we'll never reach the intended meaning.