ChiDragon

Yes, that was exactly my point. Was it necessary for LaoTze to state this trivial phenomenon in the Tao Te Ching...??? Besides, 有道(you3 tao), please note that "tao" is small t. It means here "with principles" which implies that is "virtuous".

The main theme of the movie, Hero, was about two assassins attempted to kill the Qin Emperor(秦始皇). They could have been succeed, however, they had realized not to proceed with it at the end because of tien xia(China). It was because tien xia had been united by the Emperor and only he can rule tien xia and keep it together. Despite the Emperor was a tyrant, the assassins were realized if they had killed the Emperor, then there is no one left that has the ability to keep tien xia united. It would have been the warring states fighting against each other again and make the political situation into a big turmoil with no peace. The assassins were heroes because they did not kill the tyrant and it was not the other way around. FYI.... 1. tien xia is under heaven implying that was all of China in the ancient time. 2. tien di(Heaven and Earth) implying that was the "Universe". BTW I think you knew too much about the Chinese stuff and applied most of them to the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching. IMO It would be wise if we stop now before we are going to introduce too much confusions...

4. If it was meant "unite the people", then it would had been written as 治天下(ruling tien xia). Tien Xia is a kind of code word with "all under heaven" meaning united, IMO. If they are scattered into 100 kingdoms or 7 warring states, they are not [yet] united; so not truly Tian Xia. OK, I will accept that "Tien Xia is a kind of code word with "all under heaven" meaning united," as your own definition. In general, Tien Xia is under Heaven, regardless how many warring state or countries, they are not necessarily united. However, whom ever has the desire to take over all the countries has to conquer all of them. In other words, to united all was the greatest intent for an tyrannous aggressor which make him 無道(wu2 tao), non-benevolent. Edited to correct "tian xia" to "tien xia".

Meditate on the beach sound good for once awhile. I am not sure is the salt vapor by the ocean is good for the lungs or not. However, my favorite place for meditation was under my lemon tree. When I breathe, I feel the lemon fragrance permeated in my respiratory system which makes me feel so refreshing.

1. The Tao Te Ching was written during the Warring State Period. I have to keep the definitions within this period. 2. To my understanding, the character 卻 really serves no significant purpose in the outcome of the translation. I would put my emphasis on the latter of the phrase. 3. "the Way prevails"....??? Is the mean that Tao sometimes fails....??? 4. If it was meant "unite the people", then it would had been written as 治天下(ruling tein xia). 5. Yes, 有道 only implies that "good government prevails" only, and only if, the government was under benevolent ruling. 6. It could be more precise, but I could live with that....

The point I was trying to make was that if a person has poor blood circulation, he will not have the redness shown on his face as a normal healthy person would have. Otherwise, as I had indicated before, his face will be appeared to be paled and look comatose. This was a sign of a person with a poor health condition. If the jing energy was abundant in the person, then, the redness will appear on his face due to good blood circulation. I am only using common knowledge and common sense for my explanations other than using mythical believes.

Good thing that you are curious about the definition of "Original classic". What I meant was whatever copy or version one wish to use, I was preferring to the original characters that was in the original copy or version. The original characters in the context will dictate the outcome of the translation. Original Classic Text 1. 天下有道， 2. 卻走馬以糞。(then, running horse dropping manure) 3. 天下無道， 4. 戎馬生於郊。 罪莫大於可欲 <---- Is this the proper place for the insertion...??? 5. 禍莫大於不知足。 6. 咎莫大於欲得。 罪莫大於可欲 <--- Or here is the proper place to be inserted for the interest of discussion...??? 7. 故 8. 知足之足 9. 常足矣。 FYI... Wang Bi was used as the basis for the Received Version. Hesheng Gong's version was not reliable because he was a devout Taoist in his religion. He revised the Tao Te Ching as canon to fit his religious believes.

Original Classic Text 1. 天下有道， 2. 卻走馬以糞。(then, running horse dropping manure) 3. 天下無道， 4. 戎馬生於郊。 5. 禍莫大於不知足。 6. 咎莫大於欲得。 7. 故 8. 知足之足 9. 常足矣。 This is a very interesting Chapter indeed. It was about war and peace by the keywords in lines 1 and 3. They are 有道(you3 tao) and 無道(wu2 tao). In lines 2 and 3, LaoTze uses the horses to distinguish their life conditions during the war and peace times. Before we going into the 有道(you3 tao) and 無道(wu2 tao), let's start with the common term 天下(tien xia) in line 1 and 3. The ancient only talked about Heaven and Earth in their time. The used the relation between Heaven and Earth to describe their locations like 天下(tien xia). The direct translation for 天下(tien xia) is "under heaven" which is Earth. At the time, they only knew they are living on Earth which is China. They are only dealing with each other within the warring states. They did not know the other parts of the world yet. Therefore, when the term 天下(tien xia) was mentioned, it was meant all of China to the ancients. Of course, now-a-days, it means around the world. The definition of the dyad for 有道(you3 tao) and 無道(wu2 tao): 1. 有道(you3 tao): virtuous; follow the moral principles 2. 無道(wu2 tao): noo virtuous; do not the follow the moral principles 1. 天下有道(tien xia you3 tao)， 1. Under Heaven with virtuous ruling, 3. 天下無道(tien xia wu2 tao)， 3. Under Heaven with non virtuous ruling. In lines 2 and 4, the horses mentioned were only one kind of horses. However, a horse can be made into a farm or war horse. 2. 卻走馬以糞。 2. Then, running horse dropping manure. Under virtuous ruling, the horses do dot need to go to war. They were used for farm at peace time. 4. 戎馬生於郊。 4. War horse bred in the outskirts. Under non virtuous ruling, even the female farming horses were urged to be used as war horses and have to bear(生) their young in the battlefield. Terse English 1. The world under benevolent ruling, 2. Running horses return to farming. 3. The world under tyrannous ruling, 4. War horses breed in the wilderness. John Wu: 1a. When the world is in possession of the Tao, 2a. The galloping horses are led to fertilize the fields with their droppings. 3a. When the world has become Taoless, 4a. War horses breed themselves on the suburbs. English/Feng: 1b. When the Tao is present in the universe, 2b. The horses haul manure. 3b. When the Tao is absent from the universe, 4b. War horses are bred outside the city. Robert Henricks: 1c. When the world has the Way, ambling horses are retired to fertilize [fields]. 2c. When the world lacks the Way, war horses are reared in the suburbs. 3c. Of crimes—none is greater than having things that one desires; 4c. Of disasters—none is greater than not knowing when one has enough. Lines 5 and 6: was given a hint that under tyrannous ruling, a tyrant will not be contended with himself and causing problem to fulfill his desires. 5. Disaster does not exceed discontentment, 6. Sin does not exceed avarice, Lines 7 and 9 are self explanatory. 7. Therefore, 8. One who knows contentment is contentment, 9. Always will be contented.

The Macroscopic and Microscopic Views of Chi (氣) There are always two sides to a story. It is like a coin with two sides which analogous to the yin and the yang as a unit. LaoTze always suggested to look at the yin side of the story to understand the yang side. In the case with the interpretation of chi, one must look at it from the other side. The people say it is energy. Unfortunately, they did not say exactly what kind of energy. Hence, people start looking for the answer randomly. If people are not sure what Chi is or might not even exist once thought what it might be, then how can the answer be found? The ancients have a tendency to see things macroscopically; and the west tend to see things microscopically. In order to find an acceptable and logical answer, one must consider to investigate Chi macroscopically and microscopically by using the scientific method in using a known definition based from the western science. Let's assume that Chi is a biochemical energy know as adenosine triphosphate(ATP). In microbiology, ATP is the energy released by cell respiration. Cell respiration is the breakdown of glucose by oxygen. The glucose is the conversion of glycogen. Glycogen is stored in the liver which was covered into glucose as needed for muscle contraction and other vital functions within the human body. For simplicity, the formula can be written as: 1. glucose + oxygen = energy(ATP) The result from the practice of Chi Kung had developed a tremendous body energy by breathing a large amount of air 氣(Chi). Since the character氣(chi) has two radicals, it can be broken down into 气(chi) and 米(rice). It can be represented as 2. chi (气) + rice(米) ＝ 氣(chi) The ancient character for air was 气(chi). The character for rice is 米(rice). The compound of the two radicals becomes 氣(chi). Looking at formula 2, macroscopically, the rice is the main diet for the Chinese people. Eventually, it will become glucose after the internal digestion had taken place. There are oxygen in the air from breathing. Hence, the rice is the source of glucose; and the air is the source of oxygen. By comparing the elements in both formulas, all the terms on the left hand side are equivalent to each other respectively. Since formula 1 is a known scientific fact. Therefore, the 氣(chi) in Formula 2 leads us to believe that is or equivalent to the biochemical energy, ATP, in formula 1.

Yes, in qigong the breath extends beyond the lungs and air. If people knew something about physiology, perhaps they would have known that "the breath extends beyond the lungs and air" is the ATP. Most Chi Kung practitioner have no knowledge about the ATP, they can only give a vague answer about Chi by calling it some sort of universal energy or cosmic energy.

Please, I am talking about blood circulation..Please read carefully.

From my previous post. 1. Shen is something that can be felt or manifested from a state of high jing energy. Another word, without jing, one will look fatigue. Perhaps, the one has no jing may be showing a pale face. If one's face is energetic looking and full of life, that is a sign of a person that is full of Shen. It was because there is good blood circulation in the body of this individual. Do you consider that as a good sign...???

Shen is not a Vitality but it's only a sign of vitality.

1. Shen is something that can be felt or manifested from a state of high jing energy. Another word, without jing, one will look fatigue. Perhaps, the one has no jing may be showing a pale face. If one's face is energetic looking and full of life, that is a sign of a person that is full of Shen. It was because there is good blood circulation in the body of this individual. 2. Yes, jing is the energy of the whole body. Orgasm is part of the energy that was released for the jing energy. It is not the sperm itself is correct. However, after orgasm, one will be the weakest person at that time. Jing energy can be rejuvenated a lot quicker by practice Chi Kung. The sperms will be matured in three days. After three days, your jing energy will be back to the normal level again.

1. The world under benevolent ruling, 2. Running horses return to farming. 3. The world under tyrannous ruling, 4. War horses breed in the wilderness. 1. 天下有道， 2. 卻走馬以糞。(then, running horse dropping manure) 3. 天下無道， 4. 戎馬生於郊。 I was hoping somebody would mention the horses and manure...!!! This is the best example of classic text written in metaphor. The first four lines about ruling and horses. LaoTze used them to relate the time in war and peace. The first four lines said: When the world was in peace, the horses stay in the farms and produce manure as fertilizer. During war time, even female horses have to go the war and bear their young in the battle field. The hidden metaphor in these four lines was only those who are not contended goes to war. 5. Disaster does not exceed discontentment, 6. Sin does not exceed avarice, These two lines said: There is nothing that can beat contentment. Again, LaoTze said it in reverse negative logic. PS... Yes, contentment. I've, also, seen that word somewhere before.

養神(yang3 shen) Most people do not realize that meditation is Shen cultivation.

Chapter 46 - Contentment Translation in terse English: 1. The world under benevolent ruling, 2. Running horses return to farming. 3. The world under tyrannous ruling, 4. War horses breed in the wilderness. 5. Disaster does not exceed discontentment, 6. Sin does not exceed avarice, 7. Therefore, 8. One who knows contentment is contentment, 9. Always will be contented. 46 1. 天下有道， 2. 卻走馬以糞。(then, running horse dropping manure) 3. 天下無道， 4. 戎馬生於郊。 5. 禍莫大於不知足。 6. 咎莫大於欲得。 7. 故 8. 知足之足 9. 常足矣。

To tell you the truth, the ancient explanation about Jing, Chi and Shen are very vague. Nobody was ever really has a good understanding of it. I had read this most of my lifetime in my native language. People were just took it for granted by accepting these two phrases below. It was always a myth to me. 精化氣：　Jing turns into Chi 氣化神: Chi turns into Shen I can give you my best shoot at it. Jing is the essence of the body; Chi is the energy being generated from Jing; and Shen is generated from Chi. Shen is not a thing that flows in other parts of the body. Shen is only a vital sign of the spirit of the body. It can only be sensed by feeling or grokking. For example, if a person was very energetic and very lively, it was to be that person is full of Shen(high spirit) by appearance. From Chi Kung based on the ultimate breathing method will build up more energy inside the body. The more energy inside the body, the greater one feels. The great energetic feeling is the vital sign of Shen of the body. 1. The west has a big misconception about dan tian. I'd never read anything like it in my native language. "it seems like this process is similar to putting chi into dantien, like "put the chi into the dantien and then turn it into shen before you close" In the Chinese literature, dan tian is only a location of the body. The term was used to describe where the chi should go into while practice the Chi Kung breathing method. When they say "sink the Chi to the dan tian", it simply means when taken a deep breathing have the abdomen fully expanded to increase the volume of the lungs allowing for more air capacity. This was called the abdominal breathing method. You properly heard the term before. The Chinese always referred Chi Kung as the ultimate breathing method. Chi Kung generates a tremendous of body energy. Somehow, because of that, people thought it was energy cultivation instead of breathing cultivation. That was why some people practiced Chi Kung for many years has no effect because they did not know the significance of breathing.

Before I'm going into saying anything, may I ask you how often have you done the "dirty deed". How close are they between one another....??? In the meantime, to get rid of the pain. You may place your index and middle fingers within two inches below the navel and press down on it while laying down on your back. You may feel strong pulses resisting against your fingers. This is completely normal. You just continue to apply pressure with your fingers. If the pulse resistance was too great, then release your fingers and press again. Eventually, the pain will be decreased to a minimal.

Marblehead... I already have taken mental note of where you stand and others. I think we are just thinking aloud whatever was in our minds.

The meaning of the characters. For studying the roots of the characters, it is fine. However, when they were putted into application, especially in classic text, they have special meanings. FYI... Title: 源 = 氵(water) + 原(origin) 源 = the source of the water; where the water was originated. The final meaning of the 源: the source. Line 1: 沖 = 氵(water) + 中(center) 沖 = the water flows in the center. 沖 is equivalent to 盅(utensil) in classic text Line 2: 淵 = 氵(water) + yuān 淵: deep water; abyss Line 7: 湛 = 氵(water) + 甚(extreme) 湛: deep(in classic text)

I am not objected to any reasonable doubts. The problem with these so-called versions of the Tao Te Ching, to me, they are not different versions. They are not different versions because they are just copies of a misplaced original. These copies had changes made to fit the authors' taste. There are some characters were used more than two thousand years ago had different meanings than what they are now. Some of the copies used phonetics instead of the original characters. The present native scholars had followed the interpretations and commentaries from the past scholars and made corrections along with their studies and came up with a Received Version. It was only reasonable for me to work with the Received Version by not assuming that all the other copies are correct as the way they stand. However, in my initial study, I have reasons to believe by using the Received Version as a baseline was a proper approach. When I am in doubt, I always go back to the different copies to determine why they were altered that way. Some of the non-native attempted to interpret the Tao Te Ching based on the root of the characters instead of following the meanings that has evolved to get to the final definition. They had putted so much emphasis on one character to interpret the whole classic phrase instead of placing the characters into context to determine the overall meaning of the phrase. In addition, some of the interpreters, native and nonnative, made the same common mistake by using what they had learned in the past outside the Taoist philosophy and applied in their interpretations. Unfortunately, that will make them more remote in reaching the true meanings of the Tao Te Ching. This is what I had sensed and how I felt. I always try to pay more attention to the issues being discussed but not the person who was making the presentation. My attitude toward the studying Tao Te Ching is: "The possession of knowledge is not to demonstrate how much one knows. It is a matter of digestion and application. Ignoring the facts blurs the foreseeing intellectual focus. One with an open mind can behold a panorama blindfolded. Finally, the denial of the unwanted truth is a move toward the deprivation of learning."

I'm with you, Stan.

Chapter 4 3. 挫其銳 4. 解其紛， 5. 和其光， 6. 同其塵， 3. Blunt the sharp edge 4. Dissolve the dispute 5. Dampen the brightness 6. Blend into the dusty world. These lines are metaphors advising human that: 3. Sharp edges are easy to be broken, it is better to make it blunt. Another word, do not take matters to the most extreme. 4. It's better to avoid dispute than creating one. 5. Do not expose oneself too open from getting into a unpleasant situation. 6. Blend oneself with the rest of the world, so, one won't be isolated. I don't see how these thoughts fall into the rest of the chapter. Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao. 1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible. 2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things. 3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious. 4/8. I don't know whose son he is, 5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.