ChiDragon

I must thank you for your gushing compliment in accusing me of being trying to twist Laozi to support my own world view. I would like you to know that I don't have the wisdom or the intelligence of LaoTze to rewrite the Tao Te Ching. The only thing that I can do is to translate it as close as possible without more or less. My goal was not to add more to twist the meaning or have less to have something get lost in the translation. I was only translating Chapters 1 and 14 of what it says in the classic text. I am not perfect but I think I'm capable of translating the TTC to an 80 to 90% accuracy without guessing its meaning, of course, with some good references and reliable sources.

1. The truth is to be found out what it was. 2. How do we know when does the truth reveal itself...??? 3. How can one conclude that was the truth...??? 3. How can anyone convince that was the truth to others...??? Does anyone know what the truth is...???

I will not comment on the former, bit it seems to me the logic was reversed in the latter. Should it read(keeping your own words)...??? 天下萬物生於有，有生於無 under Heaven all things are born from being, and being born from nothingness.

Is that how we interpret and come to a conclusion by our personal feeling about the age of the document; and are we playing games here....??? 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. Tao that can be spoken cannot be the eternal Tao. May I ask you this; "is not" and "cannot be" are they saying the something...??? To me, "is not" but there is still a possibility that "can be". However, "cannot be" everything was locked out. Do you see the nuance in the logic. Besides, the character 非(fei1) means "not" but not "cannot be". PS... It would be appreciated if one just get to the point with the relevancy of the subject. May I ask everyone to keep the personal part out of the discussion, so, it can be more constructive...??

Descriptions of Dao, cannot be the eternal Dao. Okay, If I follow your logic correctly, then any description of Tao was indicating that Tao cannot be the eternal Tao. What about the descriptions of Tao in Chapter 14 by LaoTze. Is he describing the eternal Tao or not....???

Descriptions of Dao, cannot be the eternal Dao. Do you mean this line says Dao is eternal.....????

Yes, I am with you all the way, but 玄 is very difficult to translate into English, even in Chinese was still hard to comprehend this character.

Following the naming convention is only ritual, do you think the meaning of the existing posted translation will be changed...????

I can go along with the logic in 2 but not 1. It is because in many Chapters, LaoTze has many descriptions of Tao. How can Tao cannot be eternal...??? If Tao is not eternal, then why was LaoTze spending so much time in describing it...??? LaoTze has a good description of Tao in Chapter 14 indicating that Tao is formless but existed. Since Tao is formless, isn't there an indication that Tao is eternal...??? Chapter 14 The intangible Tao. 1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless. 2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless. 3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless. 4. These three objects blended in one. 5. Its top not brilliant. 6. Its bottom nor dim. 7. Its continuance unnameable. 8. Returned to being nothingness, 9. Is called form of no form. 10. An image of nothingness, 11. Is called obscure. 11. Greet it cannot see its head. 13. Follow it cannot see its back. 14. Grasp the presence of Tao, 15. Driven all the present physical being 16. Able to understand the ancient origin, 17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

Are we clearly on the definition of Nei Kung...??? Nei Kung is general term applies to any form of internal cultivation. Any form of Chi Kung was considered to be a form of Nei Kung.

Chapter 1 The eternal Tao 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name. 3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things. Why is Tao eternal...??? It is because line 1 implicates that Tao is eternal. Line 2 also was implicating that Tao is eternal. What line 2 says was that any given name to a thing is not eternal. Does that implicate that the thing may be eternal but not the name itself...??? Yes, the reason that LaoTze starts with these two lines was to give himself some room to work with. So he can describe Tao freely. He says Tao is eternal but any given name is not. According to LaoTze, Tao is not really Tao because it is just a chaotic thing which is eternal. Hence, he can call the eternal Tao with any name, e.g. Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), please notice the caps are indicating that they are proper nouns. The names are just a temporary nomenclature for Tao at any instant in LoaTze's thoughts. Even the name Tao was only temporary in the Tao Te Ching for the convenience to describe it. Sometimes, LoaTze called it Tao, Wu2, You3, One or something else. Lines 3 and 4 have a good indication that Tao is eternal for the following reasons. The reason he called Tao, Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), was because he wants to establish a reference point in time to distinguish the two different states for Tao. 3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth. This statement implicating that Tao even existed before heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things. This statement implicating that Tao has been manifested by all the things had come to existence. Anybody have any thoughts on this...???

I cannot disagree completely but agreed all with you. You are full of the basic knowledge of the TTC.

That's all it need is two molecule of ATP for the cells to function. In the glycolysis stage, it can generate four molecules of ATP. Two of the energy molecules were used for cell function and only two were left for body strength. If the supply of oxygen was no not provided for the second stage of cellular respiration, then the cell will die eventually due to hypoxia.

Thank you! I see some Buddhist flavor in the translation. However, it didn't indicate where did Dao comes from...???

The organism could generate its own energy supply from the first stage of cellular respiration: glycolysis. http://www.answers.com/topic/glycolysis Ref: Please read IV. Anaerobic Respiration (Fermentation) from: http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/N100/2k4ch7respirationnotes.html

How would you use your meaning to relate to the rest of the lines and come up with the theme of Chapter 1......???

ooops.... Sorry, I always tend to leave out the negative word "not" when I meant to say it. I meant: 道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken about Tao, 非常道也: Then, they are NOT talking about the eternal Tao. Anyway, the final meaning is: 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. Sorry, the classic text is just too difficult to be expressed in English.

How much do you understand classic text....??? 道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken of Tao, 非常道也: Then, it is not the eternal Tao. PS... Please keep in mind, the Tao Te Ching is not about the ways of conduct but Confucius is.

Nothing is the best until it was cultivated to its perfection.

Well, there is a difference between translation and interpretation. It all depends on what the individual wants to do. One can translate then interpret with annotation or just go ahead to translate the direct meaning within context. Either way, there will be confusion and argument. To avoid confusion, I would like to translate the classic text as close as possible, so nothing gets lost. Then, I go from there with the interpretation and annotation.

Line 7 of Chapter 1 7. 此兩者同出而異名， 7. ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2, The breakdown of line 7: a. 此兩者(ci3 liang3 zhe3): these two b. 同出(tong2 chu1): came from the same(origin) c. 而異名(er2 yi4 ming2): but differ in name Translation: 7. These two come from one origin but differ in name. Annotation: I was always wondering about what are "these two(此兩者) in line 7...??? If I look at it closely, then I realized they were referred 無(wu2) and 有(you3) to lines 3 and 4. Thus these two "that come from one origin but differ in name" These three lines are self explanatory... 3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things. 7. These two come from one origin but differ in name. Indeed, the logic of line 7 flows along with lines 3 and 4.

Translation of lines 5 and 6 of Chapter 1 In lines 3 and 4, 無(wu2) and 有(you3) were treated as Nouns like Invisible and Visible respectively. However, in lines 5 and 6, 無(wu2) and 有(you3) were treated as adjectives. 5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。 6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。 Pinyin: 5. gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4; 6. chang2 you3, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3. The breakdown of line 5: a. 故(gu4): therefore; hence; thus b. 常無(chang2 wu2): always none; implicating always invisible c. 欲以觀(yu4 yi3 guan1): would observe d. 其妙(qi2 miao4;): its subtlety; characteristic; quale The breakdown of line 6: a. 常有(chang2 you3): always have; always have been; implicating always visible. b. 欲以觀(yu4 yi3 guan1): would observe c. 其徼(qi2 jiao3): its boundary The translation of lines 5 and 6: 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale. 6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary. Annotation: What these two lines are saying was: Hence the Invisible(Tao) is always invisible, we can only feeling the presence of Tao by our senses. When the Visible(Tao) is always visible, we can see its limitations by observing its highest capability.

Lines 3 and 4, Chapter 1 3. 無,名天地之始。 4. 有,名萬物之母。 3. wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3; 4. you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3. The key characters of these two line are 無(wu2) and 有(you3). 1. 無(wu2): none, nothing, implying something was invisible 2. 有(you3): have, exist, implying something exited which was visible. 3. 名(ming2): to name 4. 天地之始(tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3): the beginning of heaven and earth. 5. 萬物之母(wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3): the mother of all things. By the definition of lines 1 and 2, the eternal Tao cannot be given a name because a name can be named is not eternal. Therefore, the implication was that Tao can be given more than one name. Hence, LaoTze gave two names for Tao at the two states of its appearance. Tao was named 無(wu2), Invisible, at the beginning of heaven and earth; and Tao was named 有(you3), Visible, as the mother of all things were created. The proper translation for lines 3 and 4: 3. Invisible[無(wu2)] is at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. Visible[有(you3)] is the mother of all things. Let's put it into proper perspective: 3. Invisible was the name, given to Tao, at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name, given to Tao, as the mother of all things. ************************************************************************* These two lines are commonly mistranslated due the punctuation of the comma was placed at the wrong place as shown below. 3. 無名,天地之始。 4. 有名,萬物之母。 The compound characters would be translated as: a. 無名(wu2 ming2): no name; nameless b. 有名(you3 ming2): have a name; with a name c. 天地之始(tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3): the beginning of heaven and earth. d. 萬物之母(wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3): the mother of all things. The mistranslation: 3. The nameless at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. There is a name for the mother of all things. Over here, "The nameless" may have an implication that Tao is the origin of heaven and earth. However, "There is a name" has no indication that Tao is the mother of all things.

The Yin overcome the Yang. The softness overcome the hardness. That will soft he up.

Line 2 of Chapter 1 2. 名可名，非常名。 2. ming2 ke3 ming2, fei1 chang2 ming2. a. 名(ming2): Name b. 可名(ke3 ming2): able to name; nameable; can be named c. 非(fei1): not d. 常名(chang2 ming2): eternal name Hence, the final translation for line 2 would be: 2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name. Annotation: 1. 道可道，非常道。 2. 名可名，非常名。 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name. In Chapter 1, lines 1 and 2, LaoTze was giving an implication that Tao is eternal because it cannot be described with one word or a single sentence. Since Tao is eternal, it cannot be given a name. Although a name was given to Tao, but Tao is still eternal. Tao cannot be described in one word or a single sentence. Therefor, Tao has to be described separately. Hence, that is why there are so many chapters in the Tao Te Ching to describe Tao. Tao appeared in each chapter with a different identity. LoaTze has a paradoxical way of building up the different characteristics of Tao from Chapter to Chapter. Sometimes, the thoughts about Tao were referred back and forth between the related chapters.