ChiDragon

天下萬物生於有，有生於無 It is matter of semantics, translation and interpretation. This was all started with the characters of 無(wu2) and 有(you3). A direct translation for an ordinary Chinese language: 無(wu2): none; nothingness 有(you3): to have; having Western translation: 無(wu2): non-being; non-exist 有(you3): being; exist By the ordinary Chinese definition, 無(wu2) doesn't say that something does not exist but only implies that something does not exist. Same thing goes to 有(you3), in order to have something to be existed, we must to have something that is tangible. 天下萬物生於有，有生於無 Under heaven, all things are engendered from 有(you3), and 有(you3) was engendered from 無(wu2). In the Tao Te Ching, LaoTze used these two terms in his own peculiar way. Thus by his definition: 無(wu2) is something that exists, but invisible, with a high potential power to create. Since there were no other characters that he can use, therefore he used this character and created his own definition. 有生於無 Being was engendered from nothingness. That's what it says exactly in the esoteric classic text. The next thing is a matter of understand and interpretation. The interpretation would be: The manifested Tao came from his invisible state that has a high potential power to create. To understand the Tao Te Ching was not as easy as it seems. To interpret the true meaning of the Tao Te Ching is not by semantics of the translation of another language alone. If people understand and interpreted Chapter 1 properly, then it would make it easier to understand the rest of the chapters. This is the consensus by the knowledgeable native scholars for the interpretation of Chapter 1 . 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name. 3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things. 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale. 6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary. 7. These two come from one origin but differ in name, 8. Both are regarded as fathomless; the most mysterious of the mysterious; 9. The gate of all changes. PS... Invisible and visible are the closest English words that I can come across for the characters of 無(wu2) and 有(you3) to transmit the theme of this chapter. Choice of dyad for 有(you3)/無(wu2): being/non-being Non-being seems it doesn't have the meaning which implies that something exists but invisible. It seems it carries the thought that nothing was existed at all.

"I agree since you're not following what people are saying. But I am not trying to correct your Chinese; so your point is not really relevant." I am following what people are saying and also what the Tao Ta Ching, the classic text, was saying otherwise.

I speak for the Chinese language as my first language. I can see that we are having a communication problem here already.... PS... @Stigweard, when are we going to have that chess game that you mentioned sometime age.....???

Stigweard... I never did say that I wouldn't take any criticisms or challenges. Of course, they are welcome as long they are legitimate and logical. However, it would be utterly impossible for me to respond if it was too much off basis. I am not claiming that I am right nor have full authority on the subject matter. Anyone can ignore my translation is one's choice. But personal attacks, it is most lightly cannot be tolerated. I am just saying this, it was not pointing at anyone.

Chapter 25 故道大(Thus Tao da4) 天大(heaven da4) 地大(earth da4) 人亦大(human da4 too) 域中有四大(there are four great's in the region) You lost me. So, how are you going to talk about 大(da) then...??? How are you going to point out which 大(da4) is Tao.....????

My friend, it seems you like to speak for others and speculate too.

I must thank you for your gushing compliment in accusing me of being trying to twist Laozi to support my own world view. I would like you to know that I don't have the wisdom or the intelligence of LaoTze to rewrite the Tao Te Ching. The only thing that I can do is to translate it as close as possible without more or less. My goal was not to add more to twist the meaning or have less to have something get lost in the translation. I was only translating Chapters 1 and 14 of what it says in the classic text. I am not perfect but I think I'm capable of translating the TTC to an 80 to 90% accuracy without guessing its meaning, of course, with some good references and reliable sources.

1. The truth is to be found out what it was. 2. How do we know when does the truth reveal itself...??? 3. How can one conclude that was the truth...??? 3. How can anyone convince that was the truth to others...??? Does anyone know what the truth is...???

I will not comment on the former, bit it seems to me the logic was reversed in the latter. Should it read(keeping your own words)...??? 天下萬物生於有，有生於無 under Heaven all things are born from being, and being born from nothingness.

Is that how we interpret and come to a conclusion by our personal feeling about the age of the document; and are we playing games here....??? 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. Tao that can be spoken cannot be the eternal Tao. May I ask you this; "is not" and "cannot be" are they saying the something...??? To me, "is not" but there is still a possibility that "can be". However, "cannot be" everything was locked out. Do you see the nuance in the logic. Besides, the character 非(fei1) means "not" but not "cannot be". PS... It would be appreciated if one just get to the point with the relevancy of the subject. May I ask everyone to keep the personal part out of the discussion, so, it can be more constructive...??

Descriptions of Dao, cannot be the eternal Dao. Okay, If I follow your logic correctly, then any description of Tao was indicating that Tao cannot be the eternal Tao. What about the descriptions of Tao in Chapter 14 by LaoTze. Is he describing the eternal Tao or not....???

Descriptions of Dao, cannot be the eternal Dao. Do you mean this line says Dao is eternal.....????

Yes, I am with you all the way, but 玄 is very difficult to translate into English, even in Chinese was still hard to comprehend this character.

Following the naming convention is only ritual, do you think the meaning of the existing posted translation will be changed...????

I can go along with the logic in 2 but not 1. It is because in many Chapters, LaoTze has many descriptions of Tao. How can Tao cannot be eternal...??? If Tao is not eternal, then why was LaoTze spending so much time in describing it...??? LaoTze has a good description of Tao in Chapter 14 indicating that Tao is formless but existed. Since Tao is formless, isn't there an indication that Tao is eternal...??? Chapter 14 The intangible Tao. 1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless. 2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless. 3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless. 4. These three objects blended in one. 5. Its top not brilliant. 6. Its bottom nor dim. 7. Its continuance unnameable. 8. Returned to being nothingness, 9. Is called form of no form. 10. An image of nothingness, 11. Is called obscure. 11. Greet it cannot see its head. 13. Follow it cannot see its back. 14. Grasp the presence of Tao, 15. Driven all the present physical being 16. Able to understand the ancient origin, 17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

Are we clearly on the definition of Nei Kung...??? Nei Kung is general term applies to any form of internal cultivation. Any form of Chi Kung was considered to be a form of Nei Kung.

Chapter 1 The eternal Tao 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name. 3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things. Why is Tao eternal...??? It is because line 1 implicates that Tao is eternal. Line 2 also was implicating that Tao is eternal. What line 2 says was that any given name to a thing is not eternal. Does that implicate that the thing may be eternal but not the name itself...??? Yes, the reason that LaoTze starts with these two lines was to give himself some room to work with. So he can describe Tao freely. He says Tao is eternal but any given name is not. According to LaoTze, Tao is not really Tao because it is just a chaotic thing which is eternal. Hence, he can call the eternal Tao with any name, e.g. Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), please notice the caps are indicating that they are proper nouns. The names are just a temporary nomenclature for Tao at any instant in LoaTze's thoughts. Even the name Tao was only temporary in the Tao Te Ching for the convenience to describe it. Sometimes, LoaTze called it Tao, Wu2, You3, One or something else. Lines 3 and 4 have a good indication that Tao is eternal for the following reasons. The reason he called Tao, Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), was because he wants to establish a reference point in time to distinguish the two different states for Tao. 3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth. This statement implicating that Tao even existed before heaven and earth. 4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things. This statement implicating that Tao has been manifested by all the things had come to existence. Anybody have any thoughts on this...???

I cannot disagree completely but agreed all with you. You are full of the basic knowledge of the TTC.

That's all it need is two molecule of ATP for the cells to function. In the glycolysis stage, it can generate four molecules of ATP. Two of the energy molecules were used for cell function and only two were left for body strength. If the supply of oxygen was no not provided for the second stage of cellular respiration, then the cell will die eventually due to hypoxia.

Thank you! I see some Buddhist flavor in the translation. However, it didn't indicate where did Dao comes from...???

The organism could generate its own energy supply from the first stage of cellular respiration: glycolysis. http://www.answers.com/topic/glycolysis Ref: Please read IV. Anaerobic Respiration (Fermentation) from: http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/N100/2k4ch7respirationnotes.html

How would you use your meaning to relate to the rest of the lines and come up with the theme of Chapter 1......???

ooops.... Sorry, I always tend to leave out the negative word "not" when I meant to say it. I meant: 道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken about Tao, 非常道也: Then, they are NOT talking about the eternal Tao. Anyway, the final meaning is: 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. Sorry, the classic text is just too difficult to be expressed in English.

How much do you understand classic text....??? 道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken of Tao, 非常道也: Then, it is not the eternal Tao. PS... Please keep in mind, the Tao Te Ching is not about the ways of conduct but Confucius is.

Nothing is the best until it was cultivated to its perfection.