ChiDragon

Zhuang Zi was merged with the butterfly; and the butterfly was merged with ZZ. ZZ is the butterfly and the butterfly is ZZ. Hence, there is no separation between human and other things because they were all merged together.

Perhaps you don't know what Tao is but you know what Tao is not. You are way ahead... PS.... Tao is all of the above. However, Tao must be looked, individually, one entity at a time. Then, one will know what Tao really is/was. There is always a reason for Tao to be Tao. Tao is all there is to it.

Actually Lao Zi was saying "throw away (bad) knowledge," would make more sense. Don't you think....??? BTW, sometimes, the classics have to be interpreted with reverse logic. I don't know there was a character for bad(壞) during Lao Zi's time. I don't think I have had seen the character in the TTC.

"Merging of things" seems to be a good translation which correlate to "万物融化为一(all things integrated as one or a whole)". Zhuang Zi seems to be saying, metaphorically, that ZZ is the butterfly and the butterfly is ZZ. He wants to indicate that there is no separation between human and things. 这样，物化就是“物我界限消解，万物融化为一”。 It is like this. Merging of things seems to eliminate the distinction between human(oneself) and things. All things integrated as one. Ref: 物化

Mental distress is the highest suffering. It is the most that a Buddhist was referring to and wants to avoid.

蒼蒼之天，莫知其極 The vast sky, just don't know where it ends.

炁 Chi 炁，　炁（qì）也者，无火之谓炁。　通过呼吸导引等达到健身长寿乃至长生的目的。有胎息术，心斋，佛家六妙门数息等。古代的养生家认为，“炁”和“气“是两种不同的概念。通俗的讲，“炁”就是人体最初的先天能源，而“气”则是指通过后天的呼吸以及饮食所产生的能量。而气功锻炼主要是通过后天的呼吸等方法来接通先天的“炁”，从而达到养生健身、延年益寿的效果。 炁 has no fire. It is the prenatal source of energy, inside the human body, given by Nature. It become energy(氣) after the postnatal breathing of 气(air) and eating the foods provided by Nature. Hence, the practice of Chi Kung(氣功) is to link the prenatal 炁 through the postnatal breathing methods to attain the state of homeostasis and the effect of longevity. So, we have three kinds of Chi. 1. 炁 is the prenatal substance that makes up the human body. 2. 气 is the postnatal source of energy such as air/oxygen and nutrient from the foods we ate 3. 氣 is the energy produced by the interaction of 炁 and 气

A thinker, 公孫龍, during Waring States, was using two separate senses to identify a solid white rock. It was known as "堅白論", a theory of a solid white rock. The solid white rock has three entities. The hardness, whiteness and the rock itself. He was using the two senses by touching and seeing, separately, to identify the rock. One can only sense two things at a time but not three. For example, by touching, one can only feel the hardness and the rock but no whiteness. Thus one has a hard rock. By seeing, one can only see the whiteness and the rock but no hardness. Then, one has a white rock but never a white hard rock. 鳴 is short for an idiom 自鳴得意: smug; dogmatic 子以堅白鳴: This guy was being looking so smug by knowing the theory of a solid white rock. Ref: A theory of a solid white rock

Go ask a married person....!!!

Who says I was living? Unless otherwise, my stay was interrupted by some administrative functions again. Now, where were we? Oh! Yes, we are at a point to have double standards. I will monitor to the native source that was used as references, with errors, more closely. And be more linear with the westerners for a change to avoid any international incidents.....

I believe that Su Ch'e and Hsueh Hui are not westerners. I was aiming at them.

Fine...!!! Thank you for those quotes. It seems to me those quotes are personal interpretations but not the consensus of all the knowledgeable native scholars. Thus one should not rely on them to reflect the contextual meaning of Chapter 6.

Sorry, I've investigated further and came up with such evaluation: 丌: 1. 古同“其”。 丌 is an ancient character for “其”. Ref: 丌 紿: 5. 古同“诒”，欺骗；欺诈。 紿, in the ancient, is a synonym for “诒”: cheat, fool, pretend Ref: 紿 To put the phrases in proper perspective: 為之於其無有也: Act when something doesn’t exist yet, 紿之於其未亂: Deceive one before one was confused

Just peace only, peace may be contentment in humanity but peace is all in the Taoist cultivation.

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:44 AM Chapter 12 - The Extravagant World 1. 五色令人目盲 2. 五音令人耳聾 3. 五味令人口爽 4. 馳騁畋獵 5. 令人心發狂 6. 難得之貨 7. 令人行妨 8. 是以聖人為腹不為目 9. 故去彼取此 Translation in terse English 1. Five colors blind the eyes of the beholder. 2. Five tones make people deaf. 3. Five flavors numb the human mouth. 4. Hunting on horse back, 5. Make people's heart go insane. 6. Rare obtainable goods, 7. Make people behave nefariously. 8. A wise man lives for his belly but not for the eyes. 9. Therefore, discard the latter and keep the former. To keep the former was referring to: "A wise man lives for his belly". To discard the latter was referring to: "but living just to please the eyes"

You're very correct in all of the above. Except Red Pine didn't do a every good job as you'd claimed as he was. There was no way that one can translate anything for the message with "dark womb". With justification...??? come on....!!!

I don't know what you are trying to tell me. I don't know there was any special method in translation but the translation from one language to another. Like just get the true meaning across as close as possible.

Good, I am glad that you agree and making prgogress. I also agree partially that [1. Premise/Problem 2 Instruction 3 Results] are only take place in different chapters of the TTC. It is not necessarily that has to be true for all the phrases. It is true that lines 5 and 6 are exactly a description. Thus that's why you had come to such conclusion but with a wishful thinking that should be instructional. 5. 綿綿若存， 6. 用之不勤 5. She seems to be existed eternally, 6. With her endless reproduction capability. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition, I would like to point out that the character 縣 in the line below was in error: 縣縣呵若存 緜 is a synonym for 綿. It seems to me that 縣 was mistakenly used for 緜 in the following versions: 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 浴神□死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃□地之根。縣縣呵若存，用之不堇。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。縣縣呵其若存，用之不堇。 In fact, the corrections had been made in the later versions. 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《列子·天瑞》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地之根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《老子河上公章句·成象》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。

Would you accept the following translation....??? 綿綿若存 She seems to be existed continuously.

存: accumulate　　　deposit　　　exist　　　keep　　　live 存 堇 is a herbal vegetable 堇

《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 I don't see where the original text that says dark womb.....!!!

Why not just work the Received Version to avoid lots of misunderstanding, mistranslation,misinterpretation, misleading and arguments....??? 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。

Besides it is useful to others, the main concern is that the translation conveys the meaning of the original without any doubt. This chapter was to portray that Tao is a Mysterious Female by Lao Zi. However, one shouldn't neglect that the Chinese culture and philosophies were derived from the Yi Jing(易經). If one go to Chapter 42, then one will see that Chapters 6 and 42 are related back to the Yi Jing. Of course, one must have to be familiar with the Yi Jing about Wu Ji(無極) and Tai Ji(太極) to begin with. Chapter 6 The Mysterious Female 1. The spirit of the valley never dies. 2. It is called the mysterious female. 3. The door of the mysterious female, 4. It is called the root of heaven and earth. 5. She seems existed eternally, 6. With her endless reproduction capability. Chapter 42 - Genesis 1. 道生一。 2. 一生二。 3. 二生三。 4. 三生萬物。 Translation 1. Tao engenders One; 2. One engenders Two; 3. Two engender Three; 4. Three engender all things. 易經... 無極生太極 Wu Ji engenders Tai JI 太極生陰陽. Tai Ji engenders Yin-Yang 陰陽 => 8 trigrams => 64 hexagrams Wu Ji(無極) is Tao; Tai Ji is One; Yin-Yang is two; Trigrams and the hexagrams are all things.

Chapter 6 The Mysterious Female 1. 谷神不死 2. 是謂玄牝。 3. 玄牝之門 4. 是謂天地根。 5. 綿綿若存， 6. 用之不勤。 English translation: 1. The spirit of the valley never dies. 2. It is called the mysterious female. 3. The door of the mysterious female, 4. It is called the root of heaven and earth. 5. She seems existed eternally, 6. With her endless reproduction capability. Annotation: 1. The spirit of the valley was referred as Tao by LaoTze in this chapter. Gu(谷) means valley. 2. 谷神(gu shen) actually means the "god of the valley". Perhaps, it may sound better in English as the "spirit of the valley".