ChiDragon
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Posts posted by ChiDragon
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We have been studying and discussing for quite a while but now it's called presumptive analysis and a competition. We're also told non-natives can't understand it and a group of native scholars have change the text by consensus and we should be using that altered text. I don't see any discussion when sides are being drawn.
I am not objected to any reasonable doubts. The problem with these so-called versions of the Tao Te Ching, to me, they are not different versions. They are not different versions because they are just copies of a misplaced original. These copies had changes made to fit the authors' taste. There are some characters were used more than two thousand years ago had different meanings than what they are now. Some of the copies used phonetics instead of the original characters. The present native scholars had followed the interpretations and commentaries from the past scholars and made corrections along with their studies and came up with a Received Version.
It was only reasonable for me to work with the Received Version by not assuming that all the other copies are correct as the way they stand. However, in my initial study, I have reasons to believe by using the Received Version as a baseline was a proper approach. When I am in doubt, I always go back to the different copies to determine why they were altered that way.
Some of the non-native attempted to interpret the Tao Te Ching based on the root of the characters instead of following the meanings that has evolved to get to the final definition. They had putted so much emphasis on one character to interpret the whole classic phrase instead of placing the characters into context to determine the overall meaning of the phrase. In addition, some of the interpreters, native and nonnative, made the same common mistake by using what they had learned in the past outside the Taoist philosophy and applied in their interpretations. Unfortunately, that will make them more remote in reaching the true meanings of the Tao Te Ching.
This is what I had sensed and how I felt. I always try to pay more attention to the issues being discussed but not the person who was making the presentation. My attitude toward the studying Tao Te Ching is:
"The possession of knowledge is not to demonstrate how much one knows. It is a matter of digestion and application. Ignoring the facts blurs the foreseeing intellectual focus. One with an open mind can behold a panorama blindfolded. Finally, the denial of the unwanted truth is a move toward the deprivation of learning."
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Whew, this is not the place for me. Many words, much presumptive analysis. Little felt or applicable meaning.
I'm with you, Stan.
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Chapter 4
3. 挫其銳
4. 解其紛，
5. 和其光，
6. 同其塵，
3. Blunt the sharp edge
4. Dissolve the dispute
5. Dampen the brightness
6. Blend into the dusty world.
These lines are metaphors advising human that:
3. Sharp edges are easy to be broken, it is better to make it blunt. Another word, do not take matters to the most extreme.
4. It's better to avoid dispute than creating one.
5. Do not expose oneself too open from getting into a unpleasant situation.
6. Blend oneself with the rest of the world, so, one won't be isolated.
I don't see how these thoughts fall into the rest of the chapter.
Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao.
1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible.
2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.
3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.
4/8. I don't know whose son he is,
5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.
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I would like to add to this.
1. Te (Virtue with a upper case "V") is the Way (Upper case "W") of Tao. It is the way (the processes) Tao functions.
2. Chapter 51 defines what man considers to be positive attributes of the way of Tao. But we are also reminded that creation is the same as destruction in the eyes of Tao.
3. These destructive processes are generally considered vices in the eyes of man. But they are only the processes. Judgments cannot be placed on the Te of Tao.
4. However, the te (virtue, lower case "v') of man is different because we place judgment on everything. (We define beauty and in doing so we also define ugly.)
5. The base guidelines for the virtue of man is the three treasures. Chapter 51 expands on this concept. The chapter speaks to the Te of Tao but they can be directly related to attributes that would be considered good if man were to follow these guidelines.
6. I personally think that man's ego leads one away from the three treasures. Ego causes us to experience greed and other desires. Therefore we are told to lessen our ego, to lessen our desires.
Chapter 51 was actually introducing Tao and Te of Tao. It was all about Tao and Te of Tao and human was not mentioned.
1. Yes, lines 1 through 7 were the introduction of Tao and Te.
2. Yes, lines 10 through 17 are making a listing of the good deeds of Tao.
10.Tao engenders it,
11.Te fosters it.
12.Grow it nourish it,
13.Let it grow to maturity,
14.Foster it and protect it.
15.Produce it but not possess it.
16.Keep it but not restrain it,
17.Raise it but not control it,
18.Is the abyssal virtue.
Line 18 was coming to a final conclusion that lines 10 through 17 are the abyssal Te(Virtue) of Tao.
3. .....
4. The virtue of man was referred as the good human conduct e.g. morality and good behavior.
5. Human who follows the Te(Virtue) of Tao, but not the te(virtue) of man, was considered to be following the guidelines of Tao. One who follows the guidelines or principles of Tao was considered to be a Taoist which was being Virtuous. Thus a Virtuous Taoist was considered to be the one who follows the Te(Virtue) of Tao.
In other words, a Virtuous Taoist is different from a virtuous person which who follows the morality guidelines. A Virtuous Taoist is more toward following the concept of Wu Wei but not excluding the morality. Those who follow the morality principles are said to be Confucians.
6. These ego lessons were taught in other chapters of the Tao Te Ching. I don't see them, here, in this chapter.
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Why so serious?
The Universe just laughs,
It's so serious!
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Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao.
1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible.
2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.
3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.
4/8. I don't know whose son he is,
5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.
***** lines 3 through 6 seem to be out of context. They were reappeared in Chapter 56*****
1. 道沖而用之或不盈。
2. 淵兮似萬物之宗。
3. 挫其銳
4. 解其紛，
5. 和其光，
6. 同其塵，
7. 湛兮似或存。
8. 吾不知誰之子，
9. 象帝之先。
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dawei...
Please make the following correction.
ChiD
Most straightness seems crooked,
Most skillful seems inept.
Most eloquence seems stuttered.
Vs
Wu
The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.
The greatest skill appears clumsy.
The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.
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Well, as the Goudian strips have been mentioned I will offer Henricks' translation of the Chapter:
(B:7) Chapter 45
1 What is most perfect seems somehow defective;
2 Yet you can use it, and it never wears out.
3 What is most full seems to be empty;
4 Yet you can use it, and it never runs dry.
5 Great skill seems to be clumsy;
6 Great gain seems to be losses;
7 Great straightness seems to be bent.
______________________________
8/1 Activity overcomes cold;
9/2 Tranquility overcomes heat.
10/3 Pure and tranquil, you can stabilize the whole world.
(Lines 8 - 10 seem to be understood as a separate saying.)
Ref link:GD Version
45
1. 大成若缺，
2. 其用不币。
3. 大盈若中，
4. 其用不穷。
5. 大巧如拙，
6. 大成若诎，
7. 大植若屈。
------------------------
8/1 躁胜寒，(impetuous overcomes cold)
9/2 青胜然（热），<--- 然(ran2) was in error, 热(heat) was replaced.
10/3 清清可以为天下定。<---清清(pure pure or clear clear) makes no sense neither, 清靜(pure quietness) is more proper.
8/1 躁胜寒， was corrected by consensus because the logic did not make sense.
Illogical:
8/1 躁胜寒,(zao4 sheng4 han2)
8/1 Impetuous overcomes cold,
Consensus:
8/1 靜勝躁，(jing4 sheng4 zao4)
8/1 Calmness overcomes impetuous
This is more logical and makes more sense.
Ref link: Wang Bi Version
Received or Wang Bi Version 45
大成若缺，
其用不弊。
大盈若沖，
其用不窮。
大直若屈。
大巧若拙。
大辯若訥。
靜勝躁，
寒勝熱。
清靜為天下正。
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1. The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.
2. The greatest skill appears clumsy.
3. The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.
These statements seem illogical. I see that they were not translated in accordance with the character 若（ruo4）.
I don't see any of the lines that says this "looks, appears or sounds".
5. 大直若屈
6. 大巧若拙
7. 大辯若訥
1. "The greatest straightness looks like crookedness."
The straightness only can be seen by illusion to make it seem like the crookedness.
2. The greatest skill appears clumsy.
How can a skill job appears to be clumsy...???
3. The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.
How can an eloquent speaker sounds line stammering...???
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But Chia said... just kidding.
IMO there is nothing wrong with cultivation and sex when following the middle path. Didn't Daniel Reed (memory-perhaps not)write about this as well? 2 days recuperation in twenties, 3 days recuperation in 30's, etc. This is what I was originally taught. But NOT, as some systems suggest to not cultivate during that recuperation period. In fact, IMO, it goes against common sense. Just when a person NEEDS the cultivation most.
IMO all this changes when one practices dual cultivation so that the energy spent is utilized in an alchemy reaction to actually create more energy. However, I haven't seen this written about except in my book.
EXACTLY....
PS...
There was no such thing as damaging dantiAn(丹田).
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Thanks Y'all for your open mindedness.
Let's give line 6 an impartial evaluation with a scholastic approach.
6. 大巧若拙。
6. da4 qiao3 ruo4 zhuo2
Definitions from Etymology.
Ref Link: 巧(qiao3)
1. 巧(qiao3): clever; witty; ingenious; artful; skillful; a clever feat; a stunt; pretty; cute; coincidence; coincidental; coincidentally; opportune
Ref Link: 若（ruo4）
2. 若（ruo4）： similar to； like；
Ref Link: 拙（zhuo2）
3. 拙（zhuo2）： stupid； crude； poor(works, etc.)； slow and clumsy； a conventional term referring to oneself
All the tentative translations:
a. The greatest skill appears clumsy.
b. Great intelligence seems stupid.
c. Great skill seems to be clumsy.
d. Most skillful seems inept.
By our reference, line 6 did not mention a notion about "intelligence" directly. Indeed, the majority use the word "skill" for translation.
All these statements are superficial and paradoxical. Since we are dealing with classic text, a further interpretation was required. Let's look at c and d; they seem to be the closest translation. They are really saying:
The most skillful person should act like that he is incapable of what he is good at.
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Is not always sweet.
The fruit that faces the sun,
Always the sweetest.
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Here is my understanding of the paradox in the first seven lines.
1. Most perfection seems lacking,
2. Its function is endless.
3. Most reality seems vacuous,
4. Its function is inexhaustible.
5. Most straightness seems crooked,
6. Most skillful seems inept.
7. Most eloquence seems stuttered.
They were saying:
Even you are most perfect, and skillful but don't display these fine qualities. Just show the opposite to avoid envious conflicts from challenging individuals. In other words, do not glorify yourself and always display yourself in a humble manner. Hence, this will help you to go a long way.
8. Calmness beats testy.
9. Coldness beats heat.
10. Serenity and calmness are the norm for all people.
These three lines are suggesting that one should stay calm, at all times, so one won't be deceived by the fallacies in any adverse situation. Indeed, one had won half of the battle already.
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So hopefully we all meditate/whatever on a daily basis. My question is; how do we tranform life into practice?
1. Do we walk around in every day life performing tenaga dalam (probably not the safest thing to do, haha)?
2. Breathe deeply from the stomach?
3. Do we try to be in a super aware state of conciousness, doing our best to notice absolutely everything; every sight, sound, smell and otherwise?
4. Reserve part of our awareness to watch/monitor ourselves?
5. Do math problems?
6. Restrain ourselves from thought altogether?
7. Focus on our breath? Our dan-tien?
8. Silently recite mantras?
How do we turn daily practice into daily life?
A&L
1. No.
2. Breathe deeply to the abdomen? Yes, most definitely.
3. Yes, most definitely. That will increase your alertness and vigilance.
4. No.
5. Optional
6. No.
7. Yes, most definitely.
8. No.
Note: If one doesn't concentrate on breathing during meditation, then one is defeating the purpose of meditation.
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Chapter 45 Serenity and Calmness are the norms
Translation in terse English:
1. Most perfection seems lacking,
2. Its function is endless.
3. Most reality seems vacuous,
4. Its function is inexhaustible.
5. Most straightness seems crooked,
6. Most skillful seems inept.
7. Most eloquence seems stuttered.
8. Calmness beats testy.
9. Coldness beats heat.
10. Serenity and calmness are the norm for all people.
1. 大成若缺，
2. 其用不弊。
3. 大盈若沖，
4. 其用不窮。
5. 大直若屈。
6. 大巧若拙。
7. 大辯若訥。
8. 靜勝躁，
9. 寒勝熱。
10.清靜為天下正。
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Chapter 67 - The Three Treasures
1. I have three treasures.
2. I hold on to by safekeeping them.
3. First is mercy,
4. Second is humbleness,
5. Third is not dare to dwell before others.
6. Merciful, thus makes one brave.
7. Humbleness, thus makes one encompass.
8. Not dare to dwell before others,
9. Therefore, one can beome a patriarch.
1. 我有三寶
2. 持而保之：
3. 一曰慈，
4. 二曰儉，
5. 三曰不敢為天下先。
6. 慈故能勇，
7. 儉故能廣，
8. 不敢為天下先
9. 故能成器長。
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Yeah. Chuang Tzu speaks to not accepting our demise when the time is at hand. I think that to put someone on a bunch of tubes so they can live a couple months longer is wasteful. (But the medical profession sure does make a lot of money by doing it.)
LaoTze would have had let Nature take its course by letting the person go without delay.
Chuang Tzu would have had celebrated for someone's death because it was ending all the miseries that the person was going through. That was why Chuang Tzu was beating on a pan and singing for the death of his wife.
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1. Yeah, but that would take the first three lines out of sequence of the "this or that" contrasting.
But yes, death is more harmful than is gain or loss of material things.
2. Of course we could say: Possessions or life, which is more beneficial?
But that wouldn't be fair to the original text.
But you stay with the original Chinese as much as you can. I will do the interpretations. Hehehe.
1. I don't quite follow you here.
Edited to add to rephrase line 3 as a scenario only:
"Gain and loss of fame and goods" or death which is more harmful?
Would that fall back into sequence...???
2. Of course we could say: Possessions or life, which is more beneficial?
In line 3. 得與亡孰病。
The character 病(bing4) is a negative thought as opposed to "beneficial". It may be a good interpretation if one wish to twist the meaning but not a closest translation within context per se.
Edited to add:
PS...
If you put line 2 into a positive sense, then you would be braking LaoTze's habit. LaoTze likes put a positive thought in a reverse negative logic.
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Okay. I accept that. Loss of life would be just a valid but that would likely be pushing the translation into an interpretation.
1. Fame or life which is more intimate?
2. Life or goods which is more precious?
3. Gain or death which is more harmful?
The translation was considered within context as I had indicated.
If lines 3 was translated as:
3. Gain or loss which is more harmful? Then, the value of life has been ignored as life mentioned in lines 1 and 2.
Suppose a question was asked in this way:
3. Gain, loss or death which is more harmful?
Wouldn't you say that death is more harmful and life is more important to you....???
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Just wondering, why did you use "death" instead of "loss" here?
(The more we lose the less we have to protect.)
1. 名與身孰親。
2. 身與貨孰多。
3. 得與亡孰病。
4. 甚愛必大費。
5. 多藏必厚亡。
6. 故知足不辱。
7. 知止不殆。
8. 可以長久。
Good question, I think you are wondering about this character 亡(wang2) in lines 3 and 5.
Normally, 亡(wang2) means death.
1. Fame or life which is more intimate?
2. Life or goods which is more precious?
3. Gain or death which is more harmful?
If we look at the lines 1 and 2, they were asking something about fame, goods and life.
In line 3, it was asking about the gain of fame and goods; then the death which was related to life.
5. 多藏必厚亡。
5. Excessive storage(of goods) may result in a heavy loss.
In line 5, it was talking about the storage of goods which was related to loss instead of death. In the classic text, only, the character 亡(wang2) means loss here. In modern Chinese, 亡(wang2) will not be used in such manner.
Edited to add:
I did a further investigation, the character 亡(wang2) does have the meanings of "death" and "loss".
Again, in modern Chinese, 亡(wang2) was seldom used as "loss".
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Chapter 44 - Knowing Your Limitations - Revised
Translation in terse English...
1. Fame or life which is more intimate?
2. Life or goods which is more precious?
3. Gain or death which is more harmful?
4. Superfluously in love(with fame) must pay a high price.
5. Excessive storage(of goods) may result in a heavy loss.
6. Therefore, one with content will not be ignominious,
7. Knowing when to quit ended with no risk,
8. Can be long lasting.
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This is not weird, if you really understand the meaning of Chi Kung. I'd given the definition of Chi Kung here for many times. Let's me give it another shot.
Chi Kung is the ultimate method of breathing which needs to be practiced to its perfection for cultivating energy.
Many people, mistakenly, thought that Chi Kung was cultivating energy but actually it is not. Chi Kung is really cultivating breathing to breathe as much air(chi) into the body as possible. The more air(chi) circulation in your lungs, the more energy which the body can be generated. The reason you hear that man's voice from his breathing because he is the master of the art. He was demonstrated that he have reached to a point where he can manipulate the air circulation in his vocal cord. Ultimately, he can project his voice to any magnitude and duration.
I had practiced Tai Chi and Chi Kung for more than thirty-five years. I can manipulating my voice and a good singer.
[TTC Study] Chapter 4 of the Tao Teh Ching
in Daodejing
Posted · Edited by ChiDragon
The meaning of the characters. For studying the roots of the characters, it is fine. However, when they were putted into application, especially in classic text, they have special meanings.
FYI...
Title: 源 = 氵(water) + 原(origin)
源 = the source of the water; where the water was originated.
The final meaning of the 源: the source.
Line 1: 沖 = 氵(water) + 中(center)
沖 = the water flows in the center.
沖 is equivalent to 盅(utensil) in classic text
Line 2: 淵 = 氵(water) + yuān
淵: deep water; abyss
Line 7: 湛 = 氵(water) + 甚(extreme)
湛: deep(in classic text)