ChiDragon

Not being taught the integrated breathwork normally means your sifu hasnt opened much of his book to you at all. Beginners are told to breathe naturally while other things are focused on, then the breath integration with motion can be done more efficiently once the basics of movement are achieved Not to personally knock you, just saying that is usually the reason a sifu will tell a student "just breathe naturally." Its a nice way of saying "we'll get to that later, that's not the focus of what we're presently working on."

 

Ironic you mention prejudice, because your posts have been prejudiced against anything beyond what you've read and experienced. The rebuttals, if anything, were prejudiced against your blinders and nothing more - rigid ideas of concepts and phenomena are a huge roadblock to progress as you walk your path. When confronted with ideas one hasnt come across before, they are best approached with an open mind - better to ask "is this possible, if yes, how so" instead of saying "this appears to be impossible" and close the book right there.

I do appreciate you took a neutral stand. What I am tried to do is not to lump everything together that we have learned as one whole system. The are definitions and terminology in each system. They must be understood thoroughly to their basic smallest component in order to isolate them from one another. If the terms are not any different, then why call them with a different name. I grant that you all have a very broad knowledge of the martial arts. However, knowing everything in general and stay at a gross level will lead nowhere. To demonstrate one's ability of comprehension one must narrow it down to the finest level by definitions. Thus anybody can come in and throw in what one has learned by saying this is it and that is it with lots of crazy and funny names was just chaotic. IMO

I bet you nobody, here, can distinguish the difference between Chi King and Nei Kung. I dare someone give me a distinction between the two.

I found a solution to the mystery, that too works with your Received version

The character 以 did always (omit) a 之 character in pre-Qin classical chinese:

 

故以知(之)國 知國之贼也

以不知(之)國 知國之德也

 

之國 meant the objective meaning of 國 that'll say: country, territory

國 meant the subjective meaning of 國 that'll say: nation, state, people

 

I do still think, that Laozi was sarchastic to the confucian wanderers,

the political situation had changed since he deceased, so my new shot is:

 

Therefore, is it treason of the state knowledge to know the countries?

Is it beneficence of the state knowledge to not know the countries?

國: small country

邦: big country; nation

Laozi was sarchastic to the Confucian wanderers.....???

Please reread the Tao Te Ching and reevaluate LaoTze again.

A sage treats all people like straw dogs(Chapter 5).

Don't you know about LaoTze's Wu Wei concept...???

Where have you been...???

You still haven't answered my very simple question which makes me think that you don't want to for some reason. That's fine. You don't have to. I asked to gain an understanding as to what level of training you have achieved with your Shifu.

 

Your comments about reverse abdominal breathing and Tai Ji Quan tell me that you don't understand how and why it is used (and essential) in developing martial Tai Ji Quan skills. That's fine. Not everyone has the opportunity to learn Tai Ji Quan from a teacher that understands the martial training. Just because you haven't learned something in your books or from your teacher doesn't mean the 鬼佬 don't have good teachers!

 

You really ought to spend more time studying Tai Ji Quan and Dao meditation with a Shifu before considering yourself an authority on those subjects. They are not equivalent to Qi Gong.

In that case, I have to disqualify myself to engage further discussion with such a prejudicial conclusion. Especially, the last statement will reveal how much one has learned from his teacher.

Well, according to the TTC Tao gave birth to One.

 

As far as I know female is the only sex capable of giving birth so if we want to personify Tao, Tao is Woman.

Yes, Chapters 6 and 42 will support your statement. Tao can be an endless reproductive female.

The proper translation to have the logic flow:

6. Therefore, if one was using crafty cleverness to rule a country,

7. He would be considered as a bandit of the country.

8. By not using crafty cleverness to rule a country,

9. Then, it would be very fortunate for the country.

6. 故 以 智 治 國,

7. 國 之 賊。

8. 不 以 智 治 國,

9. 國 之 福。

The direct paradoxical translation:

6. Therefore, if one was using his wisdom to rule a country,

7. He would be considered as a bandit of the country.

8. By not using his wisdom to rule a country,

9. Then, it would be very fortunate for the country.

With a direct translation of these lines, they are very paradoxically. It doesn't make any sense. In order to make it sound logical and make sense, lines 6 and 8 should be interpreted with reverse logic. To keep the logic flow with lines 7 and 9.

The first king of Han dynasty,His name is 刘邦,The name of the third king is 刘恒.

刘恒 is very famous for his ruling with the theory of laozi, and he made a great success.

For showing respect to them,Some characters in ddj was changed.

邦 was instead of 国,恒 was instead by 常.

It was the opposite showing respect of the kings. Thus it was a taboo to use their names in any document. That was why the characters were changed.

Do Taoists seek to improve upon self?

Yes, that was the whole purpose for being a Taoist.

Stigweard...

I'll reserve my comments. I don't want to be "know-it-all"....

To prevent: 天下不太平.....

the full becomes empty

then emptiness fills the fullness

 

what is full is empty

what is empty is also full

 

there can never be an emptiness that is not full

there can never be a fullness that is not empty

 

the full becomes empty

the empty becomes full

what is full is not empty

what is empty is not full

there can never be an emptiness that was not full before

there can never be a fullness that was not empty before

You didn't answer my question.

What breathing pattern did your Shifu teach you when learning how to develop Fa Jin?

You can find my answer in the previous post in of the threads. I had stated that in my experience, RAB was not mentioned as a requirement in Tai Ji practice but breathe naturally. I think you want me to say no. However, for being breathed naturally, RAB is possible under certain circumstances. I hope that will satisfy your question.

PS...

I am looking at things microscopically, while you are looking at macroscopically. If you would like to continue to discuss things in this manner to kill time. I glad to be here shooting the breeze with you....

How to rule yourself.

Applying the principles to oneself, yes.

ho hum er i mean hen ha

CD " RAB is not feasible for someone who is in constant motion."

i use reverse breathing while i am playing baguazhang and i am in constant motion.

and

"When one is in motion, it would be difficult to control the breathing while the energy was being used elsewhere. "

nope , not at all. second nature.

think the caligraphy brush that never leaves the paper. effortless and smooth. art.

Well, I will say RAB gives a very strong and effective blow at a strike. Indeed, RAB still restricts the breathing a little bit in a way. That was what I mean by "it was not feasible".

But.. even standing still aren't the most dynamic positions those where the weight is unevenly balanced?

 

At 50/50 isn't speed/motion slowed?

You have asked a very critical question regarding to Tai Ji. It has a lot to do with the Yin-Yang concept. In Tai Ji Quan, the weights were not to be distributed evenly; so one leg has more weight than the other. The leg with less weight was considered Yin; and the other leg was Yang. Still means not in motion but just reserving energy to be ready for release at demand; and it was considered to be in the Yin state.

Tai Ji was always considered oneself to be in a Yin state or a Yang state during combat mode. e.g. either one was standing still or in motion. In addition, the right hand was doing Fa Jin while the left hand relaxes and vice versa to produce the Yin-Yang effect at all times.

However, at static mode, a Tai Ji practitioner always puts oneself in a Yin-Yang state, simultaneously. For example, the body weight was distributed unevenly in the legs(Yin-Yang state) with the hands relaxed(Yin sate).

Edited to change the words from "not to be distribute unevenly" to "not to be distributed evenly".

I'm not disappointed at all but I have a better understanding of your level of training and understanding.

 

What breathing pattern were you taught to use when learning how to generate Fa Jin?

Thanks

I grant you that to have a good teacher to get one initiated is a must. It's really meaningless to argue having a teacher or not. The rest is how much can the student absorb and comprehend.

Let me use a little common sense to answer your question. Using the RAB to Fa Jin is not as effective as using NAB because all the energy were concentrated on the abdomen by muscle contraction. When one is in motion, it would be difficult to control the breathing while the energy was being used elsewhere.

In Nei Kung practice, the muscles are being prepared for external punishment. RAB is very good to harden the abdominal muscles; so, the internal organs can be protected and the abdomen was able to take a great impact as well. When someone is doing Fa Jin, one need to breathe as freely as one can be to control the breathing in a natural manner. Unless one is standing still, otherwise, RAB is not feasible for someone who is in constant motion.

Chapter 65 - The methods of ruling a country.

1. In antiquity, those who were good in observing the principles of Tao.

2. It was not intended to make the people cunning.

3. But to keep them simple.

4. The people are difficult to be ruled,

5. It was because they are full of trickery.

6. Therefore, if one was using crafty cleverness to rule a country,

7. He would be considered as a bandit of the country.

8. By not using crafty cleverness to rule a country,

9. Then, it would be very fortunate for the country.

10. Understanding the difference between these two ruling methods,

11. Then, it would be recognized as a great principle.

13. Always knowing the great principle,

14. It was considered to be a deep virtue.

15. The deep virtue is profound and remote indeed!

16. With things are returned to the state of simplicity,

17. Thus they will attain the ultimate natural state by following the course of Nature.

Chapter 65 - How to rule a country.

1. 古 之 善 為 道 者,

2. 非 以 明 民,

3. 將 以 愚 之。

4. 民 之 難 治,

5. 以 其 智 多。

6. 故 以 智 治 國,

7. 國 之 賊。

8. 不 以 智 治 國,

9. 國 之 福。

10.知 此 兩 者,

11.亦 稽 式。

12.常 知 稽 式，

14.是 謂 玄 德。

15.玄 德 深 矣 、遠 矣 !

16.與 物 反 矣。

17.然 後 乃 至 大 順。

You can use Toshihiko Yayamas method and gather Qi between your hands form a ball and practise the MCO. Nothing to bother about abdominal breathing or reverse breathing here, but reverse Breathing is a further level of abdominal breathing.

 

When you can breath deep- you have good chance to archieve natural reverse breathing - well how you find it... well you will get respiratory problems like something is cut off your breathing while before you feel the breath is deep and reach all places in the body. If you not follow your body and change breathing or stop meditation then Sayonara. After that the reverse stay reverse as long you are calm and the things you confront, do and perceive not destabilize you.

 

Q

Thank you for pointing out the critical point of RAB. I am not really against RAB for skilled practitioners if they choose. IMO Like they said it makes no difference in the benefits for MCO-1. If people come out yelling and screaming recommending to use RAB without mentioning not for beginners, it was absurd.

Ref link: MCO-1

Q: 请问练习小周天时是否一定要是逆腹式呼吸？用腹式呼吸可以练习小周天吗？

Q: May I ask must I use reverse abdominal breathing for practicing MCO-1? Can I use abdominal breathing to practice MCO-1?

A: 大小周天，一般指内丹术功法，“练精化气”、“练气化神”，“练神还虚”三步功法，总称为内丹术。大小周天是其中的一、二步功法。周天功经过几千年的流传，又经过多少练功家的整理提高，已明确是使经气在身体内按经络路线循环、周转。小周天（练精化气）就是指内气从下丹田开始，循督脉而上，顺任脉而下，过三关沟通任督。心肾相交，水火既济，使精气充实起来，就可以达到防病祛病的目的。小周天，又叫子午周天。 大周天（练气化神）是在小周天的基础上进一步练奇经八脉、十二经脉全部通调，使神和气密切结合，意气相随，内气可以通达全身，真气充盈，则心宽体健。大周天，又叫卯 酉周天。 “子午”“卯酉”的含义是：子为北，午为南，好比人身体的前后，而前后的主要经脉是任督，任督相通为小周天；卯为东， 酉为西，好比人体左右四肢，而左右四肢为十二正经起始点，十二正经通为大周天。 小周天，练功时采取卧式或坐式，意守丹田，自然呼吸，或腹式呼吸，当内气在丹田发动后，丹田部位一般会产生热气流的感觉，这时用意默默地想着它，随着它，这股热流的感觉就会从丹田部位往下伸至会阴穴，再向后流经尾闾穴，循督脉向上，经夹脊、玉枕到百会穴。然后行至下丹田，如此循任督经络之周天循环，就是小周天功法。

A: MCO-1, to practice, it can be laying or sitting down, focus on the Dan Tian, breathe naturally or abdominal breathing(shown in bold).

Do you mean to say that your Tai Ji Quan Shifu never mentioned the practice?

Or do you mean that you have not come across it in your reading?

I am sorry to disappoint you, my answer is yes to both of your questions.

You said to the effect: "deep breath into dan tian is the MCO". That is a precursor to the MCO, as Kali points out to build up the energy. This really means nothing until you provide details of the 'micro cosmic orbit' itself ; understood?

 

I already told you in the first response to this thread: You are describing the Fire Cycle using NAB.. This is the most basic way, using Buddha Breath... which some have dubbed as "abdominal breathing" or NAB. You are not reading what others are saying.

 

You know the fire path with NAB... Nobody disputes that as a valid and fundamental method. BUT; that is NOT THE ONLY MCO path and breathing method.

 

You have yet to share anything of interest concerning the MCO. You talk of baby food when most here are practicing many levels beyond that basic method. When anyone tries to share it, you pass it off as not your understanding. That is fine. Nobody is saying your method is not true. But if you try to pass it off as the ONLY truth, then your missing what is being said: There are many methods and teachings, not only the one basic one.

You said to the effect: "deep breath into dan tian is the MCO".

That was exactly what I wanted to tell you. It was because that was Taoist Talk. That was the way Taoists had believed and expressed differently than others. Please don't let the Taoist name MCO fool you. You only knew half of the story.

Breathing is breathing, putting an adjective in front of it is still breathing. Please don't throw in those fancy names. Everybody uses "Abdominal breathing" besides the Buddhist Monks. That was the reason why I ignored you in the first place. I don't know who threw in the RAB for MCO.

i think he can figure out that they weren't on location at shaolin. i don't know whether you were trying to treat him like an idiot or not, but if so, thats rude.

Who did the worse damage.....???

I guess you didn't understand what I was saying............

This is the way I understood it and discredited because it was not experience but from the books. You are implying that one cannot digest what he/her had read from reading.

FYI...After all this time, what I was trying to say is: when one had done abdominal breathing and send Chi to the Dan Tian was said to be that the channel has been opened and he has completed one MCO-1 cycle already. Thus I had done many NAB in my practice in my life, understood...???

yeah but i was wondering if these priests portrayed real monks and preists accurately also the setting is in the shaolin temple

Anyway, FYI this movie was made in the setting in Hollywood. There were no real Buddhist monks in the movie that I know of.

Kali Yuga...

Well said.

What the hell do we know but just talk it out with our own experiences. Then let somebody else comes along to deny it....

Did you see a Taoist priest or a Buddhist monk in the movie...???

Thank you for your honest opinion. The people in this forum, some said breathing has nothing to do or may have something to do with Chi Kung; and some said something otherwise about abdominal breathing. There are no consistency here. Who do you suggest should be followed...???

At least, I have some consistency on my part. My story was always consistent and does not change each time when I tell it. Sorry to say, I always stuck with the same old story.