ChiDragon

赤子(red son or child): Actually, it means a new born male child.

Is that all?

Inhale for 1 minute is easy, but to exhale 1 minute is not.

How long can you do it.....???

1. 36 years(Tai Ji and Chi Kung).

2. Whenever I can.

3. Healthy sights:

a. Corrected my breathing Problem and no more hypoxia,

b. Have lots of Jin,

c. Great muscle tone,

d. Improved eye sights.

e. Sing like a baritone,

f. Fast reflexes and more alert,

g. Strong wrist, arms and legs.

h. Faster reaction on the road and had avoided numerous of car accidents,

i. Did not get sick in the last seven to eight years since practicing Chi Kung,

j. Increase of libido.

4. With lots of abdominal breathings.

PS...

How about some more contributions from you Chi Kung experts out there...???

1.This are wise words - do you have a hint/s to reach this and what is the goal you are after in the moment?

5.What if the western methods apply the rules of Qigong,(edit) can it be called Qigong then in your sense?

 

Q

1. It would be a wishful thinking on my part to be elevated to this level. I don't believe it would be practical for me to dedicate all my time to reach this goal. Besides, I may not find a teacher without relocate.

If I have to give you a hint to fulfill your curiosity, I would say I need to find a way to generate the body energy many many times more than normal to be emitted externally.

5. The rules of Qigong cannot be applied to the western methods because I've already pointed out the contrast between the two methods. Basically, the breathing and body movements in the western methods, such as boxing and aerobic, are jumping and moving at a higher speed. Despite to the Chi Kung method which require the feet to be on the ground at all times. Hence, jumping restricts the western method from appling to the rules of Chi Kung. Further more, some of the positions in callanetics do not allow the performance of abdominal breathing.

1.I was refering to people who call themselves Qigong Healers and sending and absorb

Qi through the palms.

 

2.Breathing and movement you put your awareness. What exactly do you try to achieve by putting the awareness on breath and movement?

 

3.Tai Chi Chuan is a martial Art as well. To make a Push a Push one has to Push

but if you not know what you push how can you push?

 

4+5. They belong together. Breath work,slow movement,correct biomechanics and breathing can be done with callinestics, aerobic workout, western boxing etc. From this standpoint they would be "Western Method". But what is the difference between Tai Chi/Qigong compared to this Western Method.

 

Q

First of all, thank you for clearing all the mist in the air. I appreciate that...

1. It was beyond my level of understand because I am not there yet. It is not my ultimate goal for the time being.

2. Breathing and slow movements are the principle exercises that will effect the physical structure of the human body; breathing will help to enhance the body to function internally and slow movements will help to build up the muscle tone and exercise all the muscles and joints. The slowness of the movements was to apply stresses to the muscles slowly to prevent damaging the tissues and the joints. Especially, those who have not been exercising for awhile. In addition, the slowness will increase the reflexes of the arms and legs, of course, after a long period of practice.

3. Normally, push hand requires two persons to practice; but still, one person can be practiced by just going through the push hand movements.

4+5. The Western Methods tend to consume lots of body energy, at a faster rate, while doing the exercise. The breathing rate was much faster. Thus all the oxygen, in the lungs, did not stay long enough to allow the red blood cells to be collected. Some of the unused portion will be exhaled too soon. While all the body energy have being consumed, there was not enough oxygen for the body cells to generate the energy quick enough for the muscles to be used for contraction.

There is a special method was used, in Chi Kung, called the abdominal breathing. What it does was to increase the volume of the lung to allow more air to be stored while doing slow and deep breathing. While the oxygen was being used to generate the body energy, the body was not consuming much energy due the slow movements. Thus the body has more energy readily available to be used.

In summary, the western method consumes more energy and cause hypoxia. The abdominal breathing and slow movements in Chi Kung allow the body cells to generate more energy than the body was consumed. That is why a Chi Kung practitioner does not get fatigue quickly. Indeed, the major difference between the Western Method and Chi Kung can be shown by the fact that a boxer gets fatigue after practice, while the Chi Kung practitioner is more energetic.

Chapter 59

1. Ruling a country with natural endowments,

2. It was nothing like preserving a good health.

3. Thus only preserving a good health,

4. It was said to be an early preparation.

5. Preparation was said to be serious accumulation of virtue.

6. Accumulation of virtue then it's invincible.

7. If one is invincible, then it's difficult to evaluate one's ultimate power.

8. Not knowing one's ultimate power, then one is able to assume the responsibility of a country;

9. And by protecting a country, thus that will be long lasting,

10.It was said to be ineradicable,

11.And that was the principle of existentialism.

Chapter 59

1. 治人事天，

2. 莫若嗇。

3. 夫唯嗇，

4. 是謂早服；

5. 早服謂之重積德；

6. 重積德則無不克；

7. 無不克則莫知其極；

8. 莫知其極，可以有國；

9. 有國之母，可以長久；

10. 是謂深根固柢，

11. 長生久視之道。

I see.............

Perhaps, it is better to close this discussion with an open mind one way or the other.....

Yes, this IS INCORRECT.. HOW MANY TIMES MUST IT BE SAID?

Yes, I am lack of exposure to non-breath based system. It was because I am only interested in the breathing system like Chi Kung. Chi Kung is more advantageous over the non-breath system. Non-breath system is for one with a good physical body as opposed to a weaker person. A weaker person may have some illnesses and need to be cured or need improvement for a better physical fitness. Besides, Chi Kung will also cover the benefits of the non-breathing system. It might take a little time. That' all.

PS...

I didn't know that was our original argument.

I like that, Scotty. That was real cute...

No, it's not terminology. It's your lack of exposure to non-breath based systems.

OK. This is my understanding. I said all forms of Chi Kung involve with breathing. I think someone disagree with that in the first place. Am I correct on this...???

Dawei, you should be commended for your posts, efforts, and approach to this thread.

 

All the best,

Yes, me too. Too bad he gave up with some unanswered questions.

OK. I made an error in my last statement.

Let me rephrase:

Now, I know why the Western Qigong practitioners say breathing is not necessarily associated with "Qigong" in few cases.

Why?

I was just repeating what you guys had said. I've found out why you guys said that. It was the terminology you guys had taught differently. It doesn't matter what, I see the word "Qigong" was in every term which causing some confusion.

Hi, GOOWDAY...

Welcome...!!!

What a coincidence, I am doing the same thing. You know what...??? I use to spell Tao Te Jing this way.

you did not get the english; then did not get the chinese; then told another they do this as always.

 

your shtick is growing old on me. Have your fun, I am done with this one.

I'll say it was not a language problem but a personal one.

Thanks for being honest but it does not surprise me.

 

1. For someone who has invented their own Qigong from TaiJi, there would be no need to consider such definitions as standards.

 

2. And you said you don't use visualization as it "distracts" you.

 

3. So you cannot visualize the ideas presented from chinese documents.

1. Tai Ji is a form of Chi Kung. Do we agree with this or not...???

If not, don't worry about it. If yes, then I did not reinvent anything. You just didn't give me a chance to finish my story then jump to your own conclusion.

2. Are you still hung up on that...???

3. I love your accusations, it's kind of giving me a jolt toward enlightenment and to keep me alert.

I do appreciate your last statement; but I wonder how did you get that idea...???

Are you trying to twist things around again as always. We say 外功 is external practice but not 外氣功(External Qigong). It was the English terms that you gave me threw me off.

OK. I made an error in my last statement.

Let me rephrase:

Now, I know why the Western Qigong practitioners say breathing is not necessarily associated with "Qigong" in few cases.

 

The Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Dept of Qigong says:

外功 - External Qigong stresses movement [in self practice].

外功 - Qigong to strengthen the muscles, tendons and bones in the 'separating form' and the 'joining form'. The best known dynamic style is the Muscle/Tendon Classic.

 

They further note that the "external" involves the ability to do "Qi emission and transmission" to "direct, harmonize, and treat an illness".

 

My question to you is as follows:

1. Is your practice external as defined above?

2. Has that practice included Muscle/Tendon, Bone Marrow, or Iron Shirt practices?

3. Has that practice included Qi emission and transmission to harmonize or treat an illness in another person?

 

I will let this stand as a Level 1,2,3 for External Qigong. The problem is that it does require Internal Qigong to achieve level 2 or 3.

 

I offer the following categories of Qigong, but this is a chinese source:

1. Scholar Qigong - for maintain health

2. Medical Qigong - for health and healing, including others; emission and transmission to others for healing

3. Martial Qigong - for fighting

4. Religious Qigong - Enlightenment or Buddhahood

5. Buddha Qigong - for Buddhahood

6. Tibetan Qigong - for Buddhahood

7. Daoist Qigong - for Enlightenment

 

I think you are a "scholar qigong" follower; what we can find in regards to even Confucius or Mozi.

 

In fact, I think "Energy" work itself goes way beyond this... and I have see some aspects of this beyond.

All the above are not my expectations. Also, the terminology used here are very strange to me.

Except I can answer this one:

1. Is your practice external as defined above?

My answer is yes only, and only if, with the word "Qigong" crossed out as indicated.

A. You have talked 7 pages of breathing. I have not left it out in totality.

 

B. That is what I said. And you said we are at the climax but have not moved on. So I pushed it along...

 

C. I really don't know this term but understand it. Novice first worries movements or mechanics alone; then add in breath. This can carry someone a lifetime, if they want to stay there. There is a world "beyond breath" which is what Qigong is about.

 

 

Seriously? Ok.

 

The Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Dept of Qigong says:

D. 外功 - External Qigong stresses movement [in self practice].

E. 外功 - Qigong to strengthen the muscles, tendons and bones in the 'separating form' and the 'joining form'. The best known dynamic style is the Muscle/Tendon Classic.

A. OK.

B. I can't go on like this because the terminology in English was completely different in Chinese. I know why we don't think alike because we are isolated with a new language barrier between us.

The Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Dept of Qigong says:

D. 外功 - External Qigong stresses movement [in self practice].

E. 外功 - Qigong to strengthen the muscles, tendons and bones in the 'separating form' and the 'joining form'. The best known dynamic style is the Muscle/Tendon Classic.

You see there are some discrepancies in the terms D and E between the Chines and English which threw me off.

D. 外功 to me is external practice; External Qigong means 外氣功 which makes no sense to a Chinese speaker.

E. I am totally lost by the word "Qigong" in the description despite to the 外功.

Now, I know why the Western Qigong practitioners say breathing is not necessarily associated with "Qigong"

We are talking about QIGONG. Imagine the wide world it covers. I infer your world is very, very small; moving arms about is EXTERNAL Qigong. This is novice practice. That is my point.

You left out my mentioning of breathing.

I haven't talked about levels of practice yet. This is just barely the beginning, I thought we are still in the primary discussion.

BTW What is your definition of a non-novice practice....???

Edited to add:

What is EXTERNAL Qigong...???

The Yi is spontaneous, as soon the Yi was initiated, you breathe and move the arms and legs before you knew it without any imagination. Imagination to me is to think before and determine what do I want to do with my hands and legs.

I think Friend's meaning about "imagination" in his original question is different then the way you have it.

There is form of meditation which requires imagination. I was assuming that was what he meant.

Remember also, Qi follows Yi, blood follows Qi. There is no "breath" in that statement.

 

Look deeper my friend. Empty your cup.

I am abide by my definition of Chi which is "air and breath".

There are oxygen(Chi) flowing in the blood for the air(Chi) that we breathe.

1. So is your interpretation of Iron Shirt practice nothing more than packing oxygen (retained Qi) and eventually creating a layer of oxygen (retained Qi) around the mid-section to form like a solid wall (of Qi=Oxygen)?

 

2. At least we're closer to talking about Qi and energy. Yang Jwing-Ming talks about it in this way: Electromagnet energy is constantly being produced in the body by biochemical reaction and circulated by electromotive forces (EMF); that Qi is bioelectricity or EMF.

 

The surprising discovery about Qigong is that the mind (thinking/intent/visualization) is also an EMF.

 

3. But Qi has broad application. In the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine it is talked about as: flow of Qi, Yang Qi, stagnant Qi (caused by dampness), dispersed Qi (caused by winter), lost Qi (caused by summer).

 

4. And comments like this are not explained by "breath" or "air":

"As the sun sets, Yang Qi moves inward".

"Sweetness disturbs the heart Qi"

"The Qi of the zhang organs form the five spirits and the five emotions"

"Emotions injure the Qi"

1. So far, this only a general discussion about what Chi externally, I haven't got into what is taken place inside the body biologically. Besides, iron shirt is beyond my knowledge here.

2. It may be EMF. My main concern here about Chi Kung is strictly for health reason and how it is effecting my body.

3. TCM is outside the scope of this thread, this is not the place for me to discuss it.

4. Those are the description terms people used in TCM, they did not make much sense to me.

1. What you then thinking ChiDragon of sending and absorbing Qi

as this is also part of Qigong archievement.

2. Also what you put your awareness when you do your Qigong.

3. Do you use imagination?

4. What is difference between someone who do breath work and slow movement

5. in contrast to Qigong/TaiChi arcording to you definition, is slow sport with correct biomechanics and breathing Qigong in your terms or why not?

 

Q

"sending and absorbing Qi",

1. Sending Chi would be breathing air into my body by inhalation; and absorbing Qi would absorbing oxygen. Yes, it is also part of Qigong achievement.

2. The only awareness was to concentrate on my breathing and movements.

3. I do not use imagination, that will distract my concentration.

4. The "breath work and slow movement" cannot be separated. It is the combination of the Dynamic Chi Kung. One can do breath work as Static Chi Kung without the slow movement. As far as the slow movement was concern, it was recommended for a novice in Tai Ji.

5. I am not quite sure what you are asking, would you please rephrase the question...??? Thanks.

Baguakid...

My problem was that you had labeled "no breath Qigong" for the two videos. I am still trying to digest that. As far as I know, with my Tai Chi experience, pushing hand requires special breathing from the practice in the past. There is an old martial saying: "Have Chi have strength" 有氣有力. While moving the arms and legs, at the same time one has to be breathing deeply and slowly. May be you have not noticed that in your practice. If you don't that special breathing, you will become weaken as you burnt up your body energy.

1. I follow your point and I think it is correct on the level where Qi means breath, but I see lots of examples where this falls apart (as a limited definition); but I suspect you'll just say your talking 'Qi' aspect of Qigong not generalized Qi?

 

2. I'll just give one example but it may fall outside of what your trying to show: There is Qi in food. We get rid of the food yet the Qi is utilized by the body. Qi on air has the same effect. You can separate the Qi from the air; as is taught in our Medical Qigong program; "Exhale the air but retain the Qi".

 

I do agree with your point here:

"They are too many meanings converged to the character "qi".

 

But it's not chaotic to me, it makes sense when I see the various aspects of Qi.

dawei...

I think we are going somewhere here which will lead us into the climax of this thread.

1. The "Qi" is referring to air and breathing.

2. Thank you for give me good examples to be discussed.

a. The Qi in the foods was referred as the nutrients, minerals and vitamins.

b. The Qi in the air may be referred as oxygen and other things.

The ancient said:

"Exhale the air but retain the Qi".

Actually, the modern people are saying:

Exhale the carbon dioxide and retain the oxygen.

PS....

All the 'Qi's mentioned here are the sources of energy rather than the energy itself.

Your definition of Qigong is incorrect whatever that definition is.

 

No breath Qigong:

 

No breath Qigong

You may go to page one and read about the definition of Chi Kung. I will abide by this definition for the rest of my life. I am not here to argue what is not Qigong but what it is to me.

If you don't think Tai Chi is Chi Kung or pushing hand is not Chi Kung. I will not argue about that because I am really tired of arguing that Chi Kung is not breathing.

Based on your presentation here, I will respect how much you know about about Chi Kung. I am getting to a point that no matter what people want to call it as long they are doing it and get the best result of out it. May be sometimes in the future that you might change your mind about the two videos.

BTW The reason I created this thread was to share with the someone that are in sync with my definition of Chi Kung. Anyone who has any comment, even it was not within the scope of this thread are welcome too. However, I am glad to hear it but will not argue about it. Thanks.