ChiDragon

Glad my post meets your approval

 

 

 

Yes, this is partly my point. In Chinese both meanings are implied by the characters, they are inherently there within the term. In English, depending on which words are used to convey part of the meaning it can create a difference in understanding and meaning.

 

 

 

Er, can you explain why the second definition is only applied to scholastic achievements and is not relevant to [qi]gong?

 

Best,

I guess it has something to do with the Chinese thinking linguistically. I cannot really come up with a good reason. This is the way it has been used.

That's a pure and utter BS answer and completely incorrect.

Easy...

I do agree with LBDaoist based on my undeniable definition of Chi Kung.

@ LBDaoist...

Thank you for your feedback on "Fate".....

Well just to throw some more into the mix

 

1. 功 gong is often translated as 'work', 'effort', meaning work or effort over time. This gives the implication that qigong is a method that works with qi. If your definition of qi is 'breath' this would imply a breathing method, or working with the breath/breathing.

 

2. But gong (as any Chinese word) doesn't translate so easily or simply into English. It means [good]result, achievement, accomplishment, just as much. This presents (in English) a different view, now qigong is about the achievement/accomplishment relating to qi. Staying with the definition of qi as 'breath' this no longer implies working with the breath or a breathing method. Instead it is more a recognition of good and efficient breathing. Here there is nothing that adheres this development to specifically working with the breath, just that the practices undertaken result in improved and more efficient breathing.

 

The first view means qigong is all about breathing, the second does not. Even if the definition of qi is the same, all that is changed is the understanding (in English) of the variances of meaning of gong.

 

Looking at the possibilities of understanding from the different meanings of the terms can be interesting. And some teachers use this as a way of passing on teachings. But ultimately definitions need and rely upon context, no context, or taken out of context and the meaning falls apart. There has never been a singularly accepted definition of these cultivation terms in China, reading the past texts of Daoism, Buddhism, and the medical tradition makes that clear. As well as looking at the development of the characters themselves.

 

Best,

Very good. I was thinking about the same thing during my lunch.

If I look at it objectively:

1. It would be the fundamental definition to work with as the method or procedure to get to 2.

2. It is the result that we are tried to achieve from Chi Kung.

IMO The first definition fits prefect for the definition of Chi Kung as opposed to the second. In the Chinese language, the second definition was, only, applied to the scholastic achievements. Therefore, we can eliminate the second definition as the basic meaning for Chi Kung by deductive reasoning.

I agree. I usually see yuan fen as 'fate' , 'fated' , 'destiny, 'destined', depending on context.

Hi, guys

Let's see is this correct...???

1. We are here together was by fate.

2. It was our destiny for us being together.

Hi ChiDragon. A person certainly can't get away from breathing anyway, so breathing is certainly always a part of qigong. As a couple of people have mentioned, there are forms of qigong where no special breathing is taught, both static and dynamic. One just either sits or stands or does the movements and calms the mind and does not pay any attention to breathing. That doesn't mean that breathing does not change naturally over time as progress is made in one's practice. Breathing will begin to change naturally over time in my experience, naturally becoming much deeper and slower and softer (and synchronized to movements if one is doing movements). To me, what is natural in regards to breathing means what is natural at a person's current level. As a person progresses in the qigong practice what is natural for breathing may change to become abdominal breathing or even reverse abdominal breathing, and maybe even become foetal breathing or body breathing where one seems to be almost not breathing through the nose at all.

 

I agree with others however that qi (氣 or 气) , although literally meaning 'air' or 'gas' or 'vital breath', is often translated by both traditional and modern Chinese teachers of qigong as 'vital energy' or 'life force' or similar. I understand you are objecting to this definition and prefer a more literal definition of the term, but various chinese qigong teachers do seem to use a definition similar to 'vital energy'. It is not just westerners who use this definition.

Best wishes...

I know what you are saying about the other things are Qigong. The problem with it, it just meant to be come out that way in English because that was how the English speaking Chinese Qigong masters expressed it. In my side of the story, the native Qigong masters did not express the same way as in English.

Another problem was that I cannot accept it due to the inconsistency from everyone of them. To me, the qi in qigong means "breathing" and Qigong is the breathing method. Anything outside of that will throw me off. It just won't work for me. They are too many meanings converged to the character "qi". It is very chaotic to me. I am working very well with my own narrow definition.

It may be referred as 'vital energy' but it is not something that we can breathe into our lungs. We can only breathe in air into our lungs. Qi may be referred as 'vital energy' only if we are talking about physiology but not in breathing.

If people say "breathe in the heaven qi" or "earth qi". It makes no sense to me because it says: Breathe in the vital energy from heaven or earth. Do you see what I am saying...???

Another possible noun might be 'destiny' but that is really similar in meaning to 'fate'.

What I am looking for is something referred back to compound characters in yuanfen 缘份. It means like we are meant to be met or mean to be together. "Meant to be" was the meaning I was after.

Thanks again.

PS...

I like your last remark about 'Gwai Lo'.

This is a good answer,

I see you understand the foundation in breathing.

Is there something beyond when you reach the abdominal breathing?

Q

Friend...

This is the whole foundation for Chi Kung. The abdominal breathing is the ultimate goal of Chi Kung. To go beyond that is to make it as your natural breathing habit...

'Laowai' doesn't seem too derogatory. Or is it? In Cantonese they call foreigners 'Gwai Lo', which I think means something like demon or ghost. I have learned a little Cantonese in the past and I have been surprised how often I have heard staff in Chinese restaurants or Chinese stores referring to customers as 'Gwai Lo', or even using various swear words in Cantonese in reference to the customers as well, apparently assuming that Westerners have no idea what they are saying. It's a strange world we line in.

'Laowai' was referred to as a foreigner. It is a little bit derogatory. In a way, it has an implication of "what you foreigners know...???"....

"I see. A possible noun might be 'reason', as something is caused for a reason, but maybe that is not right either."

Sorry, Laowai, you were way off.... :D

So, the word 'predestined' is not close in meaning for 'yuan' in this context?

Yes and no. As an adjective is correct but I am looking for a noun.

1. It isn't simply about my mind being made up. I write from personal experience, not simply from what I have read. You could have said from your experience you disagree-that would have been fair enough. The impolite comments directed at my teachers were uncalled for.

 

2. Frankly, bullshit. You have little knowledge of who I've learned from, what lineages or how correct or incorrect that instruction was. I have no doubt regarding what I've been taught because it has delivered results. In regards to the Hunyuan method, I have quoted the Grandmaster himself on this. I have learned it from direct family members and students. You have no right to be so rude about these people.

 

Sharing is good and most welcome. I hope we can all do that and also be polite to each other while we do.

1. The impolite comments directed at my teachers were uncalled for.

It sure did came out that way, wasn't it...??? Sorry, I did not make myself understood. Anyway, at times, when I made comments was about the issues but not the persons that are involved.

2. I was not really against the other method or style. It was just the way that I saw the story had changed and not exactly transposed into English.

The reason for this dilemma, here, was my stubbornness for sticking to my own definitions. The trouble comes from that I had tried to compare my definition with others. In my mind, I like to keep everything in perspective with consistency. Thus it becomes very sensitive when I see other definitions were not consistent with mine. Unfortunately, I must admit this is one of my weaknesses which need to be cultivated. Peace and thanks.

Some of the Qigong/Neigong exercises I've been exposed to are:

 

1. Breath based

2. Alignment based

3. Movement based (no attention to breath or alignment)

 

 

Within the breath based group I have rapid or non-rapid (slow/normal) breathing in conjunction with movement, breathing to the lungs, breathing to the dan tian (natural or forced), breath in conjunction with postures.

 

Within the alignment based group I have several alignment based qigong exercises (between heaven and earth).

 

I've been fairly lucky to have been exposed to some of these exercise which I have not seen anywhere else.

 

With that, two of the highest level masters (Chinese) I've ever come across were of the alignment based group. However, one American I know I consider now to be in the same league as the two Chinese and he uses a combination of alignment and breath.

 

Having lived in China (mainland) I have noticed that due to culture people will rarely criticize other schools or practices, at least "officially", publically, or on paper. Privately, that's another matter.

 

Having taught English in China I have also found that, also because of culture, that Chinese generally have poor debating skills which is possibly why CD comes off the way he does.

 

Lastly, one's path and achievement is based on Yuanfen 缘份 and Wuxing 悟性. One student may spend 30 years with a teacher and have limited advancement and understanding while another may spend 6 years with the same teacher only to reach exceptional levels rivaling his/her teacher.

Baguakid...

You know when I first saw your nickname, I got curious about you. Now you have spoken to reveal yourself to give me an opportunity to understand you and your personality. It was amazing after one listen to the words used by a person, right away, one can get the first impression of that person.

Thank you for your comments, they are very true about my personality. Besides, it was more related to personality than cultural in my case. I like your comments about Yuanfen 缘份 and Wuxing 悟性. I am always curious and tried to find a good English word for this character 缘. Based on your Chinese and English knowledge, can you come up with an English word for me...?? Thanks...

Truly great ! which style ?

 

When did you start Qigong practice and was that taught by another or you put it together based on readings?

 

I am very curious as to the zazen meditation, which seems more zen buddhism based, but will like to hear your story.

dawei...

I took the Yang style 108 movements. Qigong was somthing I put together based on my Tai Ji experience and reading both Chinese materials on books written by Tai Ji masters and study physiology on my own with a very good English book. Based on the combination of all these information. I may be considered that I was enlightened in the concepts of Chi Kung.

I don't want to give people the impression that I am BS about my own developed Chi Kung method. I had practiced my own method for the last seven to eight years. It takes less space; and best of all, I can practice it at anytime and anywhere. It really works for me. Also, I have my wife practice it and works for her too. It helped to improve her health condition during her menopause.

I'm glad that you are interested. I would like to start a new thread to share it with everybody.

Can you clarify what is a "little" experience? How many years?

I started taking Tai Ji lessons since 1975 and practiced until now. I start doing zazen meditation with breathing in last seven to eight years.

A question on natural breathing since it is a general question:

 

What if the natural breathing is a breathing habit and not natural breathing?

Which method you use to correct them?

 

Q

I can only speak for myself to answer your question since I have a little Chi Kung experience. Each individual breathes in a certain way, it can be said to be that is the normal or natural way. It may not be correct because it may a bad habit. Regardless, it is still the natural breathing for this particular individual.

Now, we have to define what is the correct way of breathing. A correct way of breathing is to breathe like a baby which is abdominal breathing. The normal sequence is from the nose, to the throat, to the chest, then to the abdomen. Now-a-days, an adult does not breathe like a baby anymore.

There are some people only take shallow breaths which will cause chronic illnesses due to hypoxia, the lack of oxygen. To correct this problem, people have to learn to do chest breathing. At first, they have to breath like they normally do. Then try to learn to breathe deeper and deeper progressively inch by inch until the breath reach down to the chest. Then, the ultimate goal was to breathe down to the abdominal like a baby...

PS...

Once I bad a breathing problem, I took Tai Ji lessons and practice daily to correct it. At the beginning, I was told to breathe naturally. My natural breathing, at first, was the same way as I was having a problem.

Really.........???

Yes, tests has been done on sprint runners. The tests were done based on the lack of oxygen inside the body. They must not consume all of the oxygen in their body before reaching their destiny. They must breathe hard and fast to replace the oxygen that was converted into ATP energy, so they can continue running with their muscles.

A sprint runner consumes the oxygen faster than he can breathe. As in chi kung, the oxygen was more provided than it can consume.

We need to be clear on what you mean by "how good the person is."

1. One can be very "good" at forms and generating fa jin through proper training of timing, breath, posture, and Qi cultivation.

 

2. One can be very "good" at slapping around one's students in front of a camera.

 

3. It's another thing altogether to fight in the real world, whether it be a full contact match or real self-defense/combat.

I've seen "excellent" martial artists fall apart in seconds after getting hit a few times.

I've seen sloppy nobodies beat the crap out of such "excellent" martial arts practitioners.

Good fighters train to fight.

Not all (actually, not many) martial artists train to fight.

1. To me, if a Tai Ji practitioner has reached a level that he can Fa Jin, then he is good. If one can Fa Jin, he has already incorporated the proper training of timing, breath, posture, and Qi cultivation.

3. Fighting in a match would be the last thing that a Tai Chi practitioner to be considered of.

Absolutely. Well said and I agree 100%.

Ｉ can't argue about that....

Interesting insinuations there CD. May I ask where you are going with this?

 

Nowhere, nowhere, just like the beginning....

ChiDragon speaks doesn't know

Yes! He doesn't know; but he is going to find out and justify how the breath(qi) becomes "energy".

He will have to borrow something from the western science for the explanation.

The reason we breathe was to capture the oxygen in the air for our body cells. Then, the body cells will use the oxygen to combine with the glucose and convert it into energy. This energy is a biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate(ATP). Our muscles require this biological useful energy for contraction. Thus we get an indication from this fact if we breathe more oxygen, then our body cells will generate more energy.

A simple biochemical energy formula:

Glucose + O2 = H2O + CO2 + Heat + Energy(ATP)

The formula indicates:

The increase of Oxygen, O2, will increase the chemical reaction to produce more energy. Hence, the reason for Chi Kung to take slow and deep breathing was to breathe in a maximum amount of oxygen possible in one inhalation. The slowness was for allowing ample of time for the red blood cells to collect the oxygen for the cell respiration enhancement.

Edited to add:

It is very peculiar. I've posted this information on a Chi Kung website in Hong Kong, nobody dare to argue with me. Even the Chi Kung master didn't say a thing about it. BTW he had some of the similar things posted on his site too.

http://literati-tradition.com/qi_breath.html

Yes, another one of those good old explanations from a "laowai". Then all the loawai will use them to be throwing back at us natives. :D

This is very amusing.

Some of us laowai know a good deal more about this than the vast majority of Chinese people.

No offense, since you had brought it up, we don't call you "laowai", 老外, for nothing...

PS...

Since your mind had been made up already. There is no reason to go further, is it...?? Anyway, I tried to share. I apologize for causing all this confusion.

Be careful about brushing off "natural breathing" out of hand.

The practice of natural breathing is a gateway to very advanced breathing practices, including pre-natal breathing.

There is nothing amateur about natural breathing, after all is it not Wu Wei?

Yes, natural breathing is Wu Wei. However, Qigong requires effort for cultivation, thus it was not considered to be Wu Wei.

My saying about natural breathing is for amateur because that is the first level of the breathing practice. The second level is to go into deeper breathing and more muscle contractions. Actually, I am trying to describe what is the involvement which is taken place during the different levels of practice. The involvement has to have some kind of basic definitions to make it easier to explain.

Breath..."energy"...same meaning.

How do you justify that...???

It's sort of foolish for us to bicker over definitions because there are so many variations.

There may be officially sanctioned definitions but what does that matter?

If a practice is beneficial and follows basic principles, why try and force it into a definition.

Once you learn the basic principles and develop skill, there's no reason not to develop new forms.

A knowledgable practitioner can do this very easily.

I do agree with the statement in bold. The basic principles you are referring to, don't they have to be originated from some kind of basic definition. As soon the basic definition was established, then we can go from there. If you say follow the basic principles, where are the basic principles coming from...??