ChiDragon

仲尼曰：「譆，若殆往而刑耳！夫道不欲雜，雜則多，多則擾，擾則憂，憂而不救。

"Alas," said Confucius, "I'm afraid you'll end up in trouble if

you go there. The Way should not be adulterated. Adulteration

leads to multiplicity, multiplicity to confusion, confusion to

worry. When one is worried, one cannot be saved.

古之至人，先存諸己而后存諸人。所存於己者未定，何暇至於暴人之所行！

The ultimate men of the past first sought to preserve it in themselves and only

after that to preserve it in others. Before one has settled what one

seeks to preserve in oneself, where is there any leisure to attend to

the behavior of a tyrant?

且若亦知夫德之所蕩而知之所為出乎哉？德蕩乎名，知出乎爭。名也者，相軋也﹔知也者，爭之器也。二者凶器， 非所以盡行也。

"Furthermore, do you know wherein integrity is dissipated

and wherein knowledge is elicited? Integrity is dissipated

through fame and knowledge is elicited by contention. Fame

implies mutual conflict; knowledge is an instrument of conten-

tion. Both are instruments of evil and not something for which

one should strive.

且德厚信矼，未達人氣﹔名聞不爭，未達人心。而強以仁義繩墨之言衒暴人之前者，是以人惡有其美也，命之曰菑人。菑人者，人必反菑之。若殆為 人菑夫。

Besides, a person of substantial integrity and solid trust

may still not gain the approval of others; a person who does not

contend for name and fame may still not gain the acquiescence

of others. In such circumstances, forcibly to flaunt talk about

humaneness, righteousness, and codes of conduct before a tyrant

would be to glorify oneself at the expense of another's failings.

This is called 'hurting others.' Those who hurt others will

certainly be hurt by others in return. I'm afraid that you'll be

hurt by others!

且苟為人悅賢而惡不肖，惡用而求有以異？若唯無詔，王公必將乘人而鬥其捷。而目將熒之，而色將平之，口將營之，容將形之，心且成之。是以火救火， 以水救水，名之曰益多。順始無窮，若殆以不信厚言，必死於暴人之前矣！

"What's more, if the lord appreciates the worthy and de-

spises the unworthy, what need is there for you to try to be

different? If you do not offer your views, the prince will certainly

take advantage to display his own eloquence. Your eyes will be

dazzled, your face fall flat, your mouth mutter diffidently, your

expression embody your submissiveness, and your mind will

confirm it. This is to fight fire with fire, drain water with water.

We may call it excess: If you are compliant from the start, there

will be no end to it. But I fear that if you speak honestly to

someone who does not trust you, you will certainly die at the

hands of the tyrant

且昔者桀殺關龍逢，紂殺王子比干，是皆修其身以下傴拊人之民，以下拂其上者也，故其 君因其修以擠之。是好名者也。昔者堯攻叢、枝、胥、敖，禹攻有扈。國為虛厲，身為刑戮。其用兵不止，其求實無已，是皆求名實者也，而獨不聞之乎？名實者， 聖人之所不能勝也，而況若乎！雖然，若必有以也，嘗以語我來。」

"Of old, Kuan Lungp'ang was executed by Chieh and Prince

Pikan was executed by Chow. Both had cultivated themselves as

inferiors out of solicitude for their rulers' subjects. As inferiors,

they ran afoul of their superiors, consequently their lords pushed

them aside. This was due to their love of fame. Also, of old, Yao

attacked Ts'ungchih and Hsii'ao, and Yu attacked the freehold at

Hu. These countries were reduced to haunted wastelands and

their rulers put to death. They were constantly engaged in war

and always on the lookout for gain. These are all examples of

individuals who sought fame or gain. Haven't you heard of them?

Even the sage could not conquer the attractions of fame and

gain. Can you? Nonetheless you must have a plan in mind. Let us

hear what it is."

Your 'modern interpretation' doesn't fit well with the official story of Li Ji

 

姬 was the ancestral name of her husband the deceased Duke Xian of Jin.

Her name was 麓姬 Li Ji while he lived and 麓之姬 when she became widowed.

 

The phrase 晉國之始 'the first of the Jin state' must therefore refer to the heir!

 

Ji Li had the legal heir killed before Duke Xian died and her own 15 years old son Xiqi installed as new ruler.

She was thus de facto 'the King' of Jin one month until Xiqi was assassinated. Maybe that's the pointe?

 

But I do still not understand 'son of the border-warden Ai'

 

The only Ai that could fit in is 'Duke Ai the lamentable' (494-467 BC) known from Zuo Zhuan.

One of Ai's stories looks like the beginning of Nie Que and Wang Ni dialogue:

 

He sent Ran You to ask Zhong Ni (Confucius) about the subject.

He replied that he did not know about it.

Three times he gave this answer to inquiries pressed upon him.

 

Nie Que asked Wang Ni, saying, 'Do you know, Sir, what all creatures agree in approving and affirming?' 'How should I know it?' was the reply. 'Do you know what it is that you do not know?' asked the other again, and he got the same reply. He asked a third time, 'Then are all creatures thus without knowledge?' and Wang Ni answered as before,

lienshan........No, no, no.....

姬 can be both an ancestral name and a first name.

It happens to be the first name of 麓姬(Li Ji). Her first name has nothing to do with the ancestral name of another man.

FYI Her maiden name was 麓姬.

PS...

I love you very much.

Please don't do this to me again.

Yen Hui went to see Confucius and requested permission to take

a trip.

"Where are you going?" asked Confucius.

"I'm going to the state of Wey.

""What will you do there?"

"I have heard that the Lord of Wey is behaving dictatorially

in the vigor of his youth. He is frivolous in exercising his state

prerogatives and is blind to his own faults . He looks lightly upon

the death of his people, and those who die for the state fill the

swamps like so many withered weeds. The people have no place

to turn. Master, I have heard you say that one may leave a well-

ordered state and go to one that is in chaos. 'There are many sick

people at the gate of a physician.' In conformity with what you

told me, I wish to think of a plan whereby perhaps I may cure the

sickness of the state of Wey"

It seems to me that Victor Mair's translation is close and simple. I would like to use it just to point out some minor discrepancies.

"Yen Hui went to see Confucius and requested permission to take a trip."

Actually, Yen Hui went to see Confucius for his farewell for his departure to the State of Wei.

The theme of the parable:

If one is young and with power, mostly lightly he didn't know better nor how to handle matters in his present environment. Thus it's advisable not to give too much power to a young person in the vigour of his years.

Classic Text

麓之姬，艾封人之子也。晉國之始得之也，涕泣沾襟。及其至於王所，與王同筐床，食芻豢，而後悔其泣也。予惡乎知夫死者不悔其始之蔪生乎？

Modern interpretation.

這一段開首舉麗姬為例。麗姬是春秋戰國時代麗戎國艾地守封疆人之女，被晉國俘虜，起初涕泣沾襟，及後得晉獻公寵愛，生活很舒服，吃得很好，就後悔當年何必哭泣呢。按照這個例，你就可以知道，「予惡乎知夫死者不悔其始之蔪生乎。」現實上都是這樣，都是顛倒的，顛三倒四。

麓之姬: A girl named 麗姬(Li Ji) is a daughter of a feudal king of the State of 麗戎(Li Rong). She was a captive of the Jin State. At the beginning she was crying and wetting her dress; but later the King of Jin treated her well by given her good foods and comfortable living quarter. Then, she was regretted that was crying so sad at first. This is an irony showing how people change their feelings and have different sentimental values in different situations.

The confusing part was that the name of the girl 麗姬(Li Ji) has the same character, 麗, in the state 麗戎(Li Rong).

麓之姬: 麗戎 之 麗姬; Li Ji of Li Rong. <<--- The sentence structure in English and Chinese are reverse as in this case.

Analogous to:

1. lienshan of Sweden

2. Charles of Wales.

One problem is the phrase 麗之姬 ???

麗姬 Li Ji occurs in the previous 'Nie Que asked Wang Ni story':

 

毛嬙 麗姬 人之所美 也 Mao Qiang and Li Ji were accounted by men to be most beautiful ...

 

And 麗姬 Li Ji occurs too in this not translated story but one line from it:

 

晉獻公伐虢 得麗姬 Jin offer Duke to stab Guo to get Ji Li

麗之姬，艾封人之子也。晉國之始得之也，

OK. It was the way that the phrase was worded. Yes, 麗姬 is a girl.... Sometimes, I see that the "之子" was referred as "the child of" instead of "the son of" . It was rare though.

I hope we are clear on this, now, from our meaningful dialogue....

List of Jin rulers

 

How did you translate 之子, the son of, to be a daughter...???

All translators ... Legge, Craham, Correa, Chen, Watson ... translates 'daughter of'.

I don't know who was copying whom. IMO They are in error.

子: son

女: daughter.

Please don't let these blind men lead you.

And my translation guru professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank has another opinion than you.

Sorry, I do regret that he is not thoroughly familiar with the language.

FYI...

王來: The king is coming.

王之來: The coming of the king; the purpose for the king's arrival.....was.....

Your knowledge of modern chinese is both an advantage and a disadvantage. But honestly:

This text is early Han language written like the Mawangdui versions of Tao Teh Ching.

ZhuangTze says: "Do not use your point of view to perceive the point of view of others." It was advisable to understand the person before making a judgment...

 

1. Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her, she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept.

 

This little story inside the story relates to this confucian Analects text

 

2. Confucius choose the criminal Gong Ye Chang as husband to his daughter!

Confucius choose to believe that he was not guilty ...

 

3. I cannot at first sight see, what this little story has to do within the context?

So I view it as another hint to the identity of Zhuangzi's fictional Chang Wu Zi,

but you are maybe able to enlighten me?

1. After Li Ji eating all the good foods on a comfortable bed in the palace, then she was wondering how silly she was crying so bad on the way to the palace.

2. Chang Wu Zi understood the bird language, he heard the birds said: "let's go eat the dead body under the tree by the river." Then Chang Wu Zi heard an old lady was crying while looking for her son. He told her that there is a body by the river. It was her son, but Chang Wu Zi was arrested for murdering her son. Later, he was exonerated because he proved himself to the officials that he heard that from the birds to locate the dead body. Confucius knew he was not guilty and a gentleman, thus Confucius was honored to have him as a son-in-law.

3. Zhuangzi was used the little story as an analogy for his next illustration:

Everybody is afraid of death, ZZ was wondering is there someone ever regret for what he had lived for after his death.

is the 1200 BC oracle character meaning 'a hill or mound, big, elder, empty'

It developed into the modern chinese character 丘 and was too the name of Confucius.

Names were in classical chinese language marked with an added 也 character in texts.

Your 'emphasize' is the modern nowadays way of reading the 也 in chinese language.

 

Please remember ... Zhuangzi is not a daily newspaper but an ancient pre-Qin text

Thank you for reminding me(a stupid native) how to read pre-Qin text. ....

1. no. 1.16 on the list

 

2. Ju Que Zi asked using the respectful term 夫子 to name Confucius.

 

3. Chang Wu Zi answered using the personal name 丘也 to name Confucius.

 

4. Zhuangzi's agenda writing so is to guide the reader to identify the persons speaking,

which helps the reader to understand the hidden pointe connected with the two persons.

1. I cannot confirm that Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is the same person as Gongye Chang 公冶長 form the ref-site.

2. Yes, 夫子 was used short for Confucius(孔夫子).

3. 丘 is Confucius original name. The character 也 was used to emphasize that we are talking about him particularly. It was not used to relate him to a family member.

4. Sorry, this is not the way we do it in the Chinese language....

Classic text

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」

 

長梧子曰：「是黃帝之所聽熒也，而丘也何足以知之！且女亦大早計，見卵而求時夜，見彈而求鴞炙。

Modern interpretation

瞿鵲子向長梧子問道：「我從孔夫子那裡聽到這樣的談論：聖人不從事瑣細的事務，不追逐私利，不迴避災害，不喜好貪求，不因循成規；沒說什麼又好像說了些什麼，說了些什麼又好像什麼也沒有說，因而遨遊於世俗之外。孔夫子認為這些都是輕率不當的言論，而我卻認為是精妙之道的實踐和體現。先生你認為怎麼樣呢？」

 

長梧子說：「這些話黃帝也會疑惑不解的，而孔丘怎麼能夠知曉呢！而且你也謀慮得太早，就好像見到雞蛋便想立即得到報曉的公雞，見到彈子便想立即獲取烤熟的斑鳩肉。

English translation of the above interpretation

Ju Que Zi asked Chang Wu Zi and said: "I have heard this from Confucius's dialogue: A sage doesn't do anything that was trivial, he doesn't pursue personal gains; he doesn't evade adversity; he is not greedy; he doesn't make a habit become a rule; by not saying anything but it seems something has been said; by saying something but it seems like nothing has been said. Because of taking a journey outside of this world, Confucius thought these are flippant discourse, but I reckon that was the subtle practice and embodying. And Mr. what do you think...???"

Chang Wu Zi(長梧子) said: "These kind of thoughts even Huang Di was doubtful, then, how could Confucius know about this! And you are worrying about it too soon; it seems like when you see an egg and then immediately you want to go to inform the rooster; and when you see a spark of the fire then immediately you want to reach for the barbecued turtledove.

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰： 「吾聞諸夫子，.....」

Ju Que Zi was asking Chang Wu Zi by saying: "I have heard it from the great teacher......"

1. Chang Wu Zi mentions Confucius using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.

 

2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is equal to Gongye Chang 公冶長, styled Zi-chang (al. Zi-zhi) 子長 (al. 子芝).

He was son-in-law to Confucius.

1. I am not sure about that: using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.

2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 was a disciple of Confucius. I am not sure about the son-in-law part...!!!

是黃帝之所聽熒也: Even Huang Di heard it and became vague,

而丘也何足以知之: Then how could Confucius be understood that.

I have a problem with the typical translation of the opening:

...............

 

IMO, Confucius would NOT say this; all that he taught seems to suggest he would say the opposite. The traditional versions above make Confucius sound like a Daoist but then why would ZZ say he is wrong?

 

I finally found a translation which makes sense to me.

 

Eno:

I have heard it from the Master that he regarded as wild and excessive teachings that hold that the Sage does not strive towards any goal, does not pursue benefit or evade harm, takes no pleasure is seeking for things and does not stick to the Dao; that when he is silent he is speaking and when he is speaking he is silent, and that he roams beyond the world of dust. But I regard these as the practice of the marvelous Dao.

 

Now this makes complete sense: In this version, Confucius sees such thinking as "wild and excessive" which is what we would expect of him concerning the idea to 'not strive towards any goal'.

 

It seems the construction of the sentence depends on where you put these words in translation; in this final construction, although these words are at the end of the sentence the translator sees them as belonging to the description of Confucius thought about the Sage.

 

In the end, this is continuing the previous sections which seem to really call for 'relativism' over judgement; non-distinction of this and that. Here it goes further by saying it is all just a dream. It doesn't sound like basic philosophy but how to approach it without leaving philosophy behind?

I have heard it from the Master that he regarded as wild and excessive teachings that hold that the Sage does not strive towards any goal, does not pursue benefit or evade harm, takes no pleasure is seeking for things and does not stick to the Dao; that when he is silent he is speaking and when he is speaking he is silent, and that he roams beyond the world of dust. But I regard these as the practice of the marvelous Dao.

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」

吾聞諸夫子:

吾聞諸: I heard from

夫子: a teacher, a nickname for Confucius because he was a great teacher.

"I have heard it from the great teacher that he regarded a sage was not very serious in conducting his affairs, does not pursue benefit or causing harm, does not eager for pleasure, does not associate with Tao; ...."

The reason that a sage wasn't serious in conducting his affairs is because he has gained his sagacious status. Thus everything he does, without additional effort, was already in the sagacious level.

Tian Ren He Yi

天人合一 : Heaven and human are united as One.

Chi-dragon, I am suprised at you! I had you figured for a full-on materialist given all your talk about chi being 'air' and naught else. An interesting turn!

Chi is 'air' to start with; but its phase changes at difference stages. IMO Chi does transform into energy only at the last stage. This is my sole belief. This belief gives me the positive spirit to defend any intruder who looked at it differently. However, I have been feeling that there is a strong negative spiritual force counteracting with my positive spiritual force. In the contrary, my positive spiritual force may be somebody else's negative opposing force.

Peace...!!!

Ok... don't get too excited with your reply. I gave no typing indication of excitement but you did (!!!). Maybe just calm down in your responses.

 

I have said All along that there is no difference... I pointed it out again here (ZZ wants one to drop 'this or that') and that was the question I posed to you. Maybe you just didn't understand what I was asking/suggesting. If you don't really understand then ask a question instead of getting all worked up over a reply.

 

But I see that nobody has answered XieJie's question of the meaning of 'one-leg'... so I am hoping to hear something more meaningful.

The One-foot guy is not handicapped in anyway.

What does One-foot symbolized?

The One-foot 'one-leg' does not symbolize anything. FYI The no response was my answer. Just to make it more clear, it was only used in comparison with the 'two-leg' person by ZZ in his illustration to point out that there is no difference. The significance in reading ZZ lays on the overall concept of his parables rather than looking at it piece by piece to exam the irrelevant characteristics of each individual minor item.

PS...

Sorry, I have to tell it like it's.....

****** Personal feeling filter ON *********

If one turns it around, then one sees that everything is ordinary to nature since nature is without discrimination; but that is just creating the "this or that" construct. So the metaphysical interpretation may be to just not hold discrimination?

Even "this and that" construct, ZZ had emphasized that there is no difference. A two legged person is a person; and an one legged person is still a person. Please don't get excited about that based on this statement:

"Now from the composed gesture of 右師, one will know that he knows it was due to nature, not man."

右師 was just figured out that Nature is always right....!!!

ChiDragon,

 

you are of course right, this is a famous story, however, there is very slight angle of view in ZZ's story. Historical story is about Yao and his noble act, while story ZZ descibes here is about Xun (not about Yao). Therefore, I think, these are two different stories, or perhaps better - one story with two different points. ZZ does not care about noble act of Yao (because of principles no self, no merit, no fame - in next chapters we will see that according to him, even to live in the mud like tortoise is better than work for government etc.), the point of ZZ's story is that Xun refused work for goverment, or perhaps more precisely: to take his job, to take a job of any other man - and we can only guess why: because his own (internal) work is more important? That is why this story belongs to story about Rongzi and Liezi, because Xun belongs to them.

Yes, you are right. ZZ introduced the Yao-Xun story in Chapter One is for the purpose so he can referred back to later. In this chapter, ZZ was using the story to emphasize that Xun was strongly believes in the principles of no-self, no-merit, no-fame. That was the main reason why Xun was refused to accept Yao's throne. Indeed, there was no guess work about that...

公文軒見右師而驚曰：「是何人也？惡乎介也？天與？其人與？」曰：「天也，非人也。天之生是使獨也，人之貌有與也。以是知其天也，非人也。」

When 公文軒 saw 右師, he was startled and said, "What kind of person is this? How come he only has one leg? Is this endowed? Or it was after birth due to the act of human?"

Translation:

公文軒 said, "Nature made him this way, not man. Nature's engenderment causes him to have one leg. Humans are born with two legs was by inherence. Now from the composed gesture of 右師, one will know that he knows it was due to nature, not man.

Metaphoric Interpretation:

This parable was suggesting us don't be surprised about things that we didn't know. There are things in Nature which are out of the ordinary that we may not even aware of.

澤雉十步一啄，百步一飲，不蘄畜乎樊中。神雖王，不善也。

Translation:

In the marsh, a pheasant has to take ten steps to find something to eat and has to take a hundred steps to fine water to drink; but the pheasant does not wish to live in a cage. It was because, that even, it was very comfortable and relaxed, but lack of freedom was not so good.

　　老聃死，秦失弔之，三號而出。弟子曰：「非夫子之友邪？」曰：「然。」「然則弔焉若此，可乎？」曰：「然。始也吾以為其人也，而今非也。向吾入而弔焉，有老者哭之，如哭其子﹔少者哭之，如哭其母。彼其所以會之，必有不蘄言而言，不蘄哭而哭者。是遁天倍情，忘其所受，古者謂之遁天之刑。適來，夫子時也﹔適去，夫子順也。安時而處順，哀樂不能入也，古者謂是帝之縣解。」

 

指窮於為薪，火傳也，不知其盡也。

When LaoTze died, 秦失 came to express his condolence and only wailed three times then left.

A disciple asked: "Are you a friend of our teacher?"

秦失 said: "Yes."

Disciple: "Then was it proper just for you to wail three times for your condolence?"

秦失 said: "Yes, at first I thought I came as one individual but not now anymore. At the instance as soon I stepped in, there were some people crying for him; it seems like they were crying for their own children. There were some young people crying seems like they were mourning for their own mothers. They came by to pay their last respect to the deceased and revealed many mixed emotions. Of course, there are things that they do not wish to speak of but said it anyway; things do not wish to cry about but cried. Thus this was evading the natural principles, infringing the truth, forgotten the acceptance of the innate essence. The death of LoaTze was incidental by following the sequence in time because he lived in peace and died in peace. Therefore, the mourn and joy cannot invade the internal heart. In the ancient, this was called the natural extrication, the release of all the suffering.

There is time for faggots to be burnt out. The usage of fire may be passed down from generation to generation but no one knows when it will be extinguished!

Notes:

These are proper nouns

1. 公文軒 and 右師

2. 秦失

Spirit is a very powerful invisible force may be known as a "spiritual force". Its effect is invincible when it was enforced. Whether one believes it or not, it doesn't even have to make any sense....

My 2 cents worth.

Hehehe. You're cheating. You apparently have read The Chuang Tzu more than once. But you are right, of course.

Right.....???

What did you say about adding more or less to the story...???

Yao wanted to pass his throne to Xun because he thoght Xun is better.

I just wanted to get the fact straight. Yao wanted to pass his throne to Xun was because he was getting old. He wanted to pass the throne to a highly qualified person. Normally, it was customary in China, a throne was always passed down to the first born son as the crowned prince. However, Yao did not want his throne to be ruined by his unqualified son. Therefore, he thought of passing his throne outside of the family.

The Yao-Xun story was a very famous story in the Chinese history. There was a term given for this action called 禪讓(shan4 rang4): to abdicate the throne to a qualified person instead of the next of kin. Yao was famous and given credit, in the Chinese history, because of this noble act.

when you have a lot of jing, you don't need sex

when you have a lot of chi, you don't need food

when you have a lot of shen, you don't need sleep

 

hmmmmm

Really......????

People still believing in this kind of stuff...???