ChiDragon

More monkey business...

ZhuangTze was using the monkey story to suggest that one should look at a matter in all aspects instead of just one way. e.g. At first, the keeper told the greedy monkey to have three cups of chestnut in the morning and four in the afternoon. Unfortunately, the monkey only knew that the number four is greater than three. By its one way thinking, the monkey gets upset. However, its keeper look at it both ways, by reversing the order in giving the monkey four cups of chestnut in the morning and three in the afternoon, Then, the monkey was happy.

The theme of the simple story was to advise one to be more flexibly in one's thinking. One should be start looking into matters from the same focal point to get a broad view of things. The monkey has a narrow vision which is very deceiving by itself or others.

It is true that the monkey story is about "tao(道)". However, this "tao" is different from this "Tao". The character 道 is the same for both "tao" and "Tao". The Tao is the unspeakable eternal Tao of LaoTze; and the tao is the reasonable tao of ZhuangTze. Hence, Tao is the principles of Tao while "tao" is the reasons(道理) for the principles of Tao. ZuhangTze's tao was concerning with reasons, reasons within reason.

As I indicated before, I had no idea what ZZ was all about. I am learning from scratch as I had done in the past with the Tao Te Ching. That was why I'm so slow going into the discussions here. I know I must get a good grasp of the concepts in Chapters 1 and 2 before I go into other chapters.

I will follow the concepts of Chapters 1 and 2. The advices are to have a broad vision and look at both sides of the story from a distant perspective. By just looking at the characters and names to learn each chapter, indeed, it would be just like the narrow visions of the cicada and the little dove.

Good Luck......

One need to interpret ZZ by the story in each parable metaphorically. It's no longer interpreted by the superficial meanings of the characters as it was done with the Tao Te Ching. It is a brand new ball game with ZZ. If one still wants to play the pronouns and the characters, then one is not really reading into ZZ.

劉一明: Liu Yiming

劉翼嗚: Liu I-ming

These two are two different persons.

I cannot find Liu HuaYang

Here is my counter offer by adding one more sabre.

----- Personal feeling filter ON ------

Funny how you want to quote a modern take on the idiom instead of sticking to ZZ:

 

"equal fashioning of Heaven"... There is NOTHING indecisive for ZZ. The Monkey may be indecisive and it's a pity that man follows the monkey path... and not ZZ... No wonder you said you have no idea what the chapter is about... but you have so many explanations.

------ Personal feeling filter OFF ------

To weary the spiritual intelligence by trying to unify things

without knowing that they are already identical is called "three in

the morning." Why is this called " three in the morning"? Once

upon a time, there was a monkey keeper who was feeding little

chestnuts to his charges. "I'll give you three in the morning and

four in the evening," he told them. All the monkeys were angry.

'All right, then," said the keeper, "I'll give you four in the

morning and three in the evening . " All the monkeys were happy

with this arrangement. Without adversely affecting either the

name or the reality of the amount that he fed them, the keeper

acted in accordance with the feelings of the monkeys . He too

recognized the mutual dependence of "this" and "that." Conse-

quently, the sage harmonizes the right and wrong of things and

rests at the center of the celestial potter's wheel . This is called

"dual procession."

What was ZhuangTze suggesting in this parable...??

ZhuangTze used this parable to point out the irony about the ignorance of the monkeys. The monkeys are only having an one track mind. They were just concerning about a partial fact without realizing the final result was the same. Hence, that was why a sage always tried to avoid an argument, especially something is real minor, because he knew there is a way to compromise both sides.

When I first read Chuang Tzu I did not have access to people who could read Chinese. That is why I had to ignore all the proper names in The Chuang Tzu. Now there is the opportunity for me to learn more. I am trying to take advantage of this opportunity.

If I understand you correctly, learning the proper names is only a point of interest. IMO, I don't see that has anything to do with the concepts as someone had suggested. Thus I would not make a big issue out of it.

Can Taoism change the world...??? LaoTze tried. It only worked for a short while in the Han Dynasty. Unfortunately, it cannot even change a country. Can it change the whole wide world....???!!!

Tai Chi Sabre

Tai Chi Sword is an advanced class for Tai Chi practitioner after the completion of the basic movements.

What was ZZ saying in this parable? I think he was saying that everything are the same to begin with. Things are united as one by saying that the wind is the commonality for all the sounds came from Human and Earth. If the sounds were combined, then it becomes the sounds of Nature(Heaven). ZZ's idea here different from LaoTze. LaoTze treated Human, Earth, Heaven and Tao are four entities. Indeed, ZhuangTze had Human, Earth and Heaven blended in as one Unity but Tao is a different entity. There was no difference between Human, Earth and Heaven, holistically, because their actions are started from the same origin. ZhuangTze was saying that all the actions are predominated by the invisible wind. Thus the wind is analogous to the invisible Tao.

ZhuangTze was also suggesting that the human body is predominated by an invisible soul or the spirit of the body. The Human behaves differently from each other was because each person has an individual character as suggested by ZZ about the size of the orifices. As in concepts, the basic ideas are the same but people just look at them differently then argue about. In ZhuangTze's philosophy, if we start giving names to all things to differentiate them, then individual will be insisted on one idea and try to convince others beyond reasons. e.g. All flowers have a fragrance. There is no argument there as long people called a flower as a flower. However, if a name "rose" was given to a flower, then people will start arguing when someone said a rose is not a rose.

徐渠問田鳩曰 : 臣聞 ... 'Slowly Canal' asked 'Cultivated Dove' saying : the minister have heard ...

徐渠 and 田鳩 are proper nouns. There is no need to translate them.

No, I'm not a rock today. Today I am a butterfly. No stress today. Well, hardly none. It is hard to fly straight when the winds are gusting as they are today.

How do you know that you are a butterfly...??? Perhaps the butterfly may be you today....!!!

The best place for meditation is where there are abundance of greens which are full of fresh air. Normally, there has an abundance of Chi.

"I venture" said Sir Wanderer, "to ask their secret."

"The Great Clod," said Sir Motley, "emits a vital breath

called the wind. If it doesn't blow, nothing happens. Once it

starts to blow, however, myriad hollows begin to howl. Have you

not heard its moaning? The clefts and crevasses of the towering.....

【解釋】：

子綦接著說：「你可能聽過世人吹簫的聲音，你也許曾經聽過大地的簫聲，但是你卻不可能聽到天籟自然的聲音呀！」子游於是問子綦：「請問天、地、人三籟的聲音，其意義如何呢？」子綦說：「大地發出來的氣息，叫做風。這風不吹動則已，一旦狂風大作，則萬物全部怒號起來。你有沒有聽過颳風的呼嘯聲，整個山林都撼動起來，那百人抱不住的大樹，樹上佈滿著千奇百怪，形狀各異的孔竅，有的像鼻孔，有的像嘴巴，有的像耳朵，有的像方孔，有的像圓洞，有的像舂臼，有的像深池，有的像淺窪，這 些千孔萬竅，被大風吹動所發出的聲音，有的像急流沖激的聲音，有的像射箭發出的聲音，有的像叱責的聲音，有的像呼吸的聲音，有的像叫喊的聲音，有的像哭號 的聲音，有的像深谷發出的聲音，有的像咬牙切齒感嘆的聲音；前面的風吹過，後面的風相應又吹來。小風則相應的聲音小，大風則相的聲音大。大風吹過以後，所 有的孔竅都恢復平靜，空寂無聲，然而只見到草木還在搖曳擺動，沒有停止。」子游說：「地籟是萬物眾竅孔所發出的風聲，人籟是吹奏簫管所發出的聲音，請問天籟是甚麼？」子綦說：「所謂天籟，乃是風吹萬種竅孔，發出各種不同的聲音，使這些聲音之所以千差萬別，乃是由於各個的自然形態所致，但是主宰它們發出聲音的是誰呢？」

Zi-Qi said: "You have heard of the flute sound produced by human? You might have heard of the Earth's flute sound. Perhaps you might not have heard of the natural sound of Heaven."

Then, Zi-You asked Zi-Qi: "May I ask what is the difference between the sounds of Human, Earth and Heaven?"

Zi-Qi said: "The sound produced by the Earth is called the Wind. If this wind was not blowing, it is still. However, whenever it blows, it's a big hurricane; then all things will be roaring. Have you heard of the whistling sound of a hurricane? The whole forest become astounded. That gigantic tree which cannot even embraced by hundred persons, it has all shapes of orifice, some like a nose, an ear, a square hole, a round hole, a pounding hole, a deep pool, and a shallow pond. When these thousands of openings and gaps were blown by the wind, the sounds seem like the flowing of the raging water. Some seem like shooting arrows; some seem like a scolding sound; some seem like a breathing sound; some like a yelling sound; some like a crying sound; some seem like the sounds of a valley; some seem like the grinding teeth sound. After the wind blow in the front, then it was trailed by the wind in the rear. Thus the little winds produce the tiny sounds; and the gigantic wind produced the big sounds. After the big winds are gone, then all the orifices become silent, again, in still quietness. Hence, one can only see the grasses are still swinging non stop.

Zi-You said: "The sound of Earth was the sounds that produced by the orifices in all things. The human sound came from the tones of a man made flute. Then may I ask what was the sound of Heaven?"

Zi-Qi Said: "This so called the sound of Heaven, it was nothing but the various sounds produced by the wind blowing the difference size of orifices. The tremendous different in these sounds was due to each individual natural environment, but who has the predominance to produce all these sounds?"

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales & Parables"

 

Sir Motley of Southurb sat leaning against his low table. He

looked up to heaven and exhaled slowly. Disembodied, he

seemed bereft of soul. Sir Wanderer of Countenance Complete,

who stood in attendance before him, asked, "How can we explain

this? Can the body really be made to become like withered wood?

Can the mind really be made to become like dead ashes? The one

who is leaning against the table now is not the one who was

formerly leaning against the table."

" Indeed," said Sir Motley, "your question is a good one.

Just now, I lost myself Can you understand this? You may have

heard the pipes of man, but not the pipes of earth. You may have

heard the pipes of earth, but not the pipes of heaven."

Original text:

1.南郭子綦隱机而坐，仰天而噓，荅焉似喪其耦。顏成子游立侍乎前，曰：「何居乎？形固可使如槁木，而心固可使如死灰乎？今之隱机者，非昔之隱机者也。」子綦曰：「偃，不亦善乎而問之也！今者吾喪我，汝知之乎？汝聞人籟而未聞地籟，汝聞地籟而未聞天籟夫！」

Interpretation in Chinese:

1.譯文

南 郭子綦靠著幾案而坐，仰首向天緩緩地吐著氣，那離神去智的樣子真好像精神脫出了軀體。他的學生顏成子游陪站在跟前說道：“這是怎麼啦？形體誠然可以使它像 干枯的樹木，精神和思想難道也可以使它像死灰那樣嗎？你今天憑幾而坐，跟往昔憑幾而坐的情景大不一樣呢。”

 

子綦回答說：“偃，你這個問題不是問得很好嗎？ 今天我忘掉了自己，你知道嗎？你聽見過‘人籟’卻沒有聽見過‘地籟’，你即使聽見過‘地籟’卻沒有聽見過‘天籟’啊！”

Interpretation in English:

Nan-Guo Zi-Qi was sitting down by leaning against a table. He looked up the sky and exhaling slowing. It seems like his soul and conscience were really left his body. His disciple, Zi-You, stood beside him and said: "What is happening? Is it possible to let a physical body to be like a withered tree,; and also the spiritual soul and thinking can be like dead ashes? Today, you sit by the table seems like it is not the same scenery as before in the past."

Zi-Qi answered and said: "Indeed, wasn't the question that you asked is a good one? Today, I had forgotten myself, did you know that? If you have heard the human sound, then you may not have heard the Earth sound. Even then, you have heard the Earth sound, you may not have heard the Heaven sound, alas?"

Annotation:

If one have heard of one thing or another but might not hear them all. Hence, there is always a possibility out there that one may not have heard of to draw to a final conclusion.

逍遙遊篇談論生命不當有所欲求，要順應自然，超越形體上的大小差異，不被物欲引誘，脫離有待，進入無待，體會道的存在，達到逍遙。「逍遙」不是物體現象的事，而是精神層次的事。要能忘記所有功名利祿，忘記自己，摒除所有分別念頭，無小無大，無死無生。如此便可是自我的生命充實完滿，脫離一切羈絆，進入無拘無束的安樂之地。

 

逍遙是一種心靈上得絕對自由，並非外在的表象。當人體查到萬物的律動，與萬化合一時，便可與「道」同遊，達到逍遙。內心感到和諧、舒適，才是真逍遙，強做鎮定，只是表面功夫吧了！

A brief summary for this chapter.

This chapter is about freeing one's mind with no attachment, with no desire but just follow the natural course of Nature. One should go beyond the difference in size, not attracted by materialistic means, detached from any expectation, but recognize the existence of Tao, attain to a state of unfettered. The state of unfettered is not a physical phenomenon, it is a matter of spiritual stratification. One should forget all the the following: merit, fame, benefit, and rich. One should withdraw the thinking about the contrast in sizes. There is no big or small, no life or death. Therefore, it can fulfill one's life with complacent, detached from all the trammels, and enter to the untrammeled state.

The untrammeled state is an absolute freedom in the heart but not an external image. If one can detect the movement of all things and united with them, then, one can be accompanied with Tao all the way in the life journey. Hence, the feeling of harmony and comfort is considered to be having a true free heart as untrammeled.

Reminds me of Buddhist term "Suchness."

 

"When appearances and names are put away and all discrimination ceases, that which remains is the true and essential nature of things and, as nothing can be predicated as to the nature of essence, it is called the "Suchness" of Reality. This universal, undifferentiated, inscrutable, "Suchness" is the only Reality but it is variously characterised as Truth, Mind-essence, Transcendental Intelligence, Noble Wisdom, etc. "

- Lankavatara Sutra

 

3 or 4 in the morning, determining one as this and the other as that, is not seeing "as it is." At least, that's what this chapter seems to be pointing at (with it's nonfingerness.. right..).

This is only a pin in a hay stack. I have no idea what this chapter is all about, yet, without going into deeper reading.

I rest my case.

蜩與學鳩 .... 之二蟲 litteral translated:

 

cicada and teached dove .... these two insects

 

Isn't 學鳩 the name of an insect?

 

學 means 'study, learn, doctrine, teaching, school of thought'.

 

Wouldn't Zhuangzi have used another character e.g. 小 'small' to say 'little dove'?

學: learning

鳩: a little dove.

學鳩 is a little dove still learning how to fly. That was why it was called "learning dove."

Yes... a purely modern spin on a classic idiom... and I thought we were supposed to talk ZZ all this time

朝三暮四

 

本指一養猴人以果子飼養猴子，施以詐術騙猴的故事。見莊子˙齊物論。 後比喻以詐術

欺人，或心意不定、反覆無常。 舊唐書˙卷一三五˙皇甫鎛傳：直以性惟狡詐，言不

誠實，朝三暮四，天下共知，惟能上惑聖聰，足見奸邪之極。元˙楊訥˙西游記˙第

九齣：也是我為人不肖，和這等朝三暮四的便成交。亦作暮四朝三、朝四暮

三。

比喻以詐術欺人，或心意不定、反覆無常。

A metaphor for describing a cunning person; indecisive person; changing constantly.

Ref: 朝三暮四

朝三暮四 is located at the bottom.

Chinese proverb...

朝三暮四: One cannot make up his mind. In the morning was one thing(3) but in the evening it was changed to another(4).

I don't know how much clearer I can make this statement.

 

I talk only of Philosophical Taoism. And Philosophical Taoism has no God. That's just the way life is. Who the F... would I be pretending to be to suggest that others cannot talk about however many gods they wish to talk about?

 

But then, if God is mentioned in a discussion of Taoism, and especially in this series I will, every time without fail, remind everyone that there is no God in Philosophical Taoism.

 

Anyhow, I hope this might my position a little bit clearer. Really, I hope it does because it is rather boring to keep telling other members that there is no God in Philosophical Taoism.

Marblehead,

 

All that you say is true.

 

Unless this is in fact a teaching section for you that requires your responses as to if someone else "gets it" or not? If that's the case, I misunderstood the purpose of the Chuang-Tzu subform and please disregard all of the above. (-:

 

warm regards

I'm depressed! I'm struggling and it's making think I'm an idiot. I shouldn't worry I just feel out of place. I'm sure I would understand what you're all on about but I'm just not that familiar with the inner chapters, sorry.

 

Perhaps if I read the threads in this section and just hang back for a few weeks until I get an idea of the form then it might all come into focus? For someone who it pretty good at this stuff, I mean I'm 44 and I've spent most of my life..., well you know the deal.

 

Think I'm just annoyed with myself as I haven't really exercised my philosophical muscles for a long time. Only myself to blame, I need to get my shit together.

 

But perhaps, well it's just where I'm at, lots of things going on at the mo.

 

 

Sorry!

Please do feel bad. ZZ's philosophy was teaching us to be "no self", "no merit", and "no ego".

Just free from all with no attachment and depend on nothing. If you can ignore all the external influence like insults as well as compliments, then you'd won half the battle already in learning ZZ's philosophy....

The less you say the more profound you sometimes appear to be.

Disagree in silence or in a subtle way. That's what was called the "scholastic dignity" or "scholastic arrogance." Either way, it will work....