ChiDragon

Sorry I wanted know if all TCM education absolved in China does include some form of enerergetic practice as part of the programm and if this obligatory to be practised by students?

To the best of my knowledge, Chi Kung practice was not part of the TCM program. It was up to each individual TCM practitioner to be practiced on his own.

BTW...

In the video, if you have noticed that I was hesitated at 1:04 because I was thinking about something else and lost my concentration at the moment. This is an indication of the importance of the yi or intent of the mind. Thus it was just a split of a second will cause an error in the movement.

I want to thank some of you for your sincere compliments for one's bravery. I would like to think it was not a matter of bravery rather than confidence and principle. I had learned all that from this forum and all of you, the practice and the Tao Te Ching.

It was like what LaoTze had told Confucius:

We are here to learn from each other but not to compete with each other. You might know more than me today, then you are my teacher. I might know more tomorrow, then I am your teacher.

This was just balancing the Yin and the Yang in action and reaction.

Chi Dragon - Sorry to partially derail your thread. Brave of you to expose your practice directly here.

No problem. My thread is your thread.

Thank you for the quick reply.

 

1. Do you think it could be possible to have the same flow through sitting meditation?

 

2. Have you found love to also have the same characteristics as the energy you are feeling while doing the chi kung? Like are there certain movements that will promote that aspect as well?

 

"Even when I go for a walk, I felt the Chi flowing all over my body. It was just a great feeling."

 

3. I found that once practicing any of these long enough that it will become almost autonomous. Walking or sitting I think.

 

Thank you for replying

1. Yes.

2. Yes, I have found that there was more than love in practicing Chi Kung. I found every movement and breath will promote that aspect as well.

3. Exactly.

You welcome and I thank you too.

The reason I don't offer critique is because that there is no way for me to know how well the energy is flowing for you. Sure it could look more aesthetically pleasing, but really I don't see the point in impressing others, but only in doing what works best for the chi-flow.

 

If I don't feel any chi-flow I won't do it. If I find something that works better then I will switch to that, etc. Who cares how it looks really?

Yes, I know what you are saying. One cannot take the work from another without trying it. Any method require a substantial time of practice to feel its efficacy. It cannot be done over night...!!

O, well I thought it was for chi-flow, because that's what I feel, not really any muscles exercise.

 

I generally make waves with my hands and arms to get chi flowing.

 

1. Do you not feel the energy while practicing this?

2. Are you considering it an aerobic workout?

 

3. What I was wanting to know is if you do feel energy while doing it, is there any difference in the energy standing vs sitting?

 

Thanks again

Thank you for clarifying.

1. Yes, my body felt more energetic while in the standing position. Since I had done this for eight years. Even when I go for a walk, I felt the Chi flowing all over my body. It was just a great feeling.

2. It was completely different from aerobic workout because the speed of the breathing and movements are much slower than aerobic.

3. It makes a big difference in standing than sitting.

Thanks for this demo ChiDragon.

 

Have you tried these movements while sitting? It seems to not make much of a difference if I am sitting or standing.

You welcome. Informer.

These movements are decided to exercise the whole body. However, it can be done while sitting down also; but obviously the legs are not being exercised.

Nice to see you doing tai chi.

I too think that form needs to sink.Let the dantien turn and move you.

Thank you very much. I hear people have different things to say about the dan tien. I am just so curious why dan tien does not have a uniform meaning throughout the martial arts industry.

What do you mean by "let the dan tien turn....."....???

Since somebody had mentioned Qi Gong following Tai Ji principles; and Tai Ji was my initial form of practice. I just wanted to share my part of understanding. I am only speaking for myself because others do have their own concepts. I think it's worthwhile to discuss the subtle difference between the two. Unfortunately, I know some of you do not agree that Qi Gong may or may not involve breathing. For discuss sake and those who do not agree, please bear with me. Otherwise, I cannot shared my thoughts.

Tai Ji is Qi Gong but Qi Qong is not necessarily Tai Ji. From this simple statement, one will see that breathing is something in common. However, there is a subtle difference also. Let's narrow it down. Based on my experience with Tai Ji and others as well, breathing was not emphasized at the beginning. The first thing taught in Tai Ji are the basic movements. From the continuous practice, the breathing spontaneously improving which it has an indication that the movements were guiding the breathing.

In Qi Gong, the first thing taught was breathing. Then have the slow movements follow the breathing. The movements of Qi Gong aren't as complicated as the sequential movements in Tai Ji. The movements of Qi Gong do not require to stand on one leg to support the weights of the whole body as Tai Ji does.

Both methods of Qi Gong, do develop a tremendous body strength. The body strength in high level of Tai Ji was referred as Jin(勁). There was no specific term for Jin in Qi Gong, sometimes, it was just referred as Chi.

Well firstly it's obvious you are well practiced in these sequences. There were some nice pathways going on. You allowed the moves to be fluid with one gesture fairly much flowing into the next. Groovy.

 

The footwork was smooth and clean with the weight properly distributed in the feet and your stances are well proportioned, nice.

 

 

1. But there is no power being issued from the legs. When you step, instead of powering up from the legs into the hips and waist, you are "falling" from one leg to the other. You need to engage the legs more remembering that in Taiji power is initiated in the feet, issued by the legs, controlled by the hips and expressed in the fingertips.

 

2. Your hips and waist are dormant. There is no transmission of power there; no indication that your mind/intent is centering itself in the dan tien. This follows into the torso, there is no power shifting through your spine. Your torso is frozen.

 

3. This is all because your mind is too high. Your thoughts are in your arms, too focused on making the arms look right instead of allowing power to flow up through the body out through the arms. As a result your arms and hands are too high, unnecessarily exposing your midrift to attacks.

 

But otherwise nice sequencing.

 

Stigweard...

Thank you very much.

I had been following the thread about Fa Jin. I had express my share with comments in one or two posts. Then, I had decided to back off for further comments.

1. No power being issued from the legs. I am "falling" from one leg to the other was a complete Yin-Yang cycle. I don't quite follow this: "powering up from the legs into the hips and waist" and the rest.

2. My hips and waist are dormant was because they in the Yin state while the hands are in motion in the Yang state. The Yin-Yang concept was only move the part of the body as require, otherwise, leave them in the Yin state. There was no need for the transmission of power, where do you expect the power to be transmitted to...???

My torso was frozen was because I had no intention to move it in any direction. FYI Call it frozen if you like. However, in the Tai Ji language, if there was any body parts do not need to be in motion, it was considered that they are in the Yin or energy reserving state.

No no indication that your mind/intent is centering itself in the dan tien.

It seems to me that most people are not quite sure what "sunk Chi to the dan tien" means. It simply means take a deep breath and have the breath sunken down to the abdomen which known as "abdominal breathing". The deep breath reached to the dan tien was not an issue which related to the mind but the breath was.

3. I was not considered myself to be in a combat situation. It was only a practice in breathing and muscle control. The power you are referring to are the Jin in my muscles. The Jin are already developed in all the muscles, Fa Jin can just take place in any muscle, there was no need for the power to go from one place to another as the way you had described.

ChiDragon,

"oops....

It just happened a few minutes ago, my bird flew at me, within 5 to 6 inches, and try to bite my finger. Without thinking my reflex was so quick before I realize that I might hurt my bird, it was on knocked on the floor already. Good thing it was a light touch on my part."

 

how did it feel to knock the bird to the floor? i cannot agree that this was a good thing. try gentleness

and this in a meditation thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrFCwvlw0cs

also just becoz we have not experience skin breathing does not mean that some others

have not. all reality is not based on our limited understanding/experience.

edit> i thought tai chi develops sensitivity?

No, knocking down my bird to the floor was not a good feeling. It hurts me more then the actual doing. However, that was my natural instinct of quick reflex from the practice of Tai Ji. My intention was to show the result from the practice rather than boasting about my ability to knock the bird to the floor.

You don't think Tai Chi was developing sensitivity...???

If you're open to constructive criticism, I'll offer some.

Some of these observations may appear subtle or overly critical but I think they're important, provided that your intention is to observe Taiji principles.

 

1. Starting hands - your step out with the left foot was heavy - no distinguishing full from empty. Raising the hands above the shoulder level tenses the shoulder muscles and restricts the breath. If you want to do breathing practice with the arms above the shoulders, I would suggest that you raise them and keep them there for several cycles rather than raising and lowering repeatedly. This allows the arm to settle in and the shoulder girdle to relax.

Thank you for your time and a good observation. I, also, appreciate that you are observing the Tai Ji principles and speak the Tai Ji language. However, a point of view from the beginning level was well accepted. If you have noticed the left foot was heavy, that means you are able to see the distinction between the primary and secondary levels. The terms you have used here, "full and empty" were reflecting your understanding of the Yin-Yang concept. The "full" was being hard or solid as the Yang attribute while "empty" was soft as the Yin attribute.

You are correct about raising the hands above the shoulder which restricting the breathing. This is a good test for one's ability to breathe. Remember, I had passed the primary level, therefore, breathing is not a problem issue in the secondary level. I had demonstrated that I can raise my hands as high as I can and still breathe efficiently.

I would suggest that you raise them and keep them there for several cycles rather than raising and lowering repeatedly.

If I follow your suggestion by raising my hands up for several cycles rather than raising and lowering repeatedly, then, this would be contradicting the principle of Tai Ji. Raising the hands is Yang and lowering is Yin. Hence, one must inhale and raise the hands to be Yang; and while lowering the hands and exhale to be Yin. This is the complete Yin-Yang cycle, by definition, in Tai Ji. If I have my hands in the airs and breathe several times, then it would not be Tai Ji. It is because the movements were not in sync with the breathing. At high level of Tai Ji, both breathing and the Jin in the muscles must be synchronized in order to Fa Jin. Otherwise, if there was no breath then there was no Jin.

1. i realize there is a tai chi and then there is also a tai chi chuan, 2 different things.

2. tai chi comes from wu chi. tai chi gives birth to yin and yang.

yin and yang in tai chi.

3. how i look at it. can be yin is a meditative and yang is the movements of the form.

4.yin may be bringing the qi to the ldt and yang is the physical expression.

there is a coiling and an uncoiling.

 

edit>this topic is the ancient songs and poems which are all written in chinese.

so it is appreciated that someone who knows chinese , like a ChiDragon

and the others are willing to contribute to this thread.

what i have is handouts passed to me from westerners and some books that have been translated. a few that i like have come from yang jwing-ming.

1. In general, Tai Chi and Tai Chi Chuan are the same thing. In short, people just say Tai Chi for Tai Chi Chuan by dropping the Chuan at the end.

2. That was how it was defined in the Yi Jing, the Book of Changes.

3. It is not quite that way like the way you had described. It takes some explanations when it applies to Tai Chi Chuan. You will be surprised after I tell you what is Yin-Yang was all about in Tai Chi.

4. Not quite, but it has something to do with Chi and movements.

The Tai Chi Song from Jet Li's movie

I am confidently don't see my arms are strong and powerful.

I have, within my heart, all of peace and harmony.

Facing adversity with docile acceptance.

With emptiness sees fullness.

With violence turns into risen harmony.

If I'd driven to the corner, then there will be kismet.

Motion versus stillness, division versus multiplication.

Follow the fate by coming into this world;

Getting out of this world is because of the wind.

No feeling but having feeling.

Follow the fate by the yielding instinct.

Not competing, thus no winning.

No feeling is having feeling.

I felt that my lips are not saying a lyric or command.

But I see that my hands are touching the affairs of this mortal life.

Let's meet the Yang and unite with the Yin.

Peace in the heart sensed the heavenly tranquility.

Gentleness sensed the calmness of the wind.

If I'd driven to the corner, then there will be kismet.

隨緣（太極張三豐電影主題曲）

自信手中不見強與勁

自有心中一片和與平

逆來順受 　空虛見豐盛

狂暴化升平　無路處　自有天命

動對靜　除對乘

隨緣入世因風出世　　無情亦有情

隨緣順性　不争不勝　無情是有情

但覺口中不說辭與令　

但見手中拈過塵世情

滙陽合陰　心安覺天靜

柔弱覺風平　無路處　自有天命

動對靜　除對乘

隨緣入世因風出世　　無情亦有情

隨緣順性　不争不勝　無情是有情

Edited to add:

The Tai Chi Voice.

It was deep but calm...

It was potent but gentle...

A real voice, from the diaphragm, resulted from Tai Chi practice.

i know right. it really doesnt look right.

BUT then again, how would i know what it is supposed to look like?

 

edit>do any of you guys do candle training?

By candle training, do you mean by blow out the candle with your fist....???

Did you know it was more difficult to blow it out with your palm....???

Yes, I know what you guys are saying. I do accept it as a must at the novice level. However, when the body was in a dynamic mode, the gestures of the body should be more tolerable. Anyway, the purpose was to exercise the body holistically. I would considered that the gesture to be a little less significant. I just move in according with my body as natural as it allows me to do.

You might have noticed, when I moves, my whole body flow smoothly. I was not ashamed to be a little proud of that.

PS...

Sorry, for the BS.

I let you guys fight it out....

This demo shows the body coordination with the mind starting with the famous Tai Ji movement the "Four Corners".

Steve, thank you for your valuable unbiased comments. I must commence you on your knowledge of the fundamental principles of Tai Ji. You have the revealed the hidden Yin-Yang concept in your comments. You must have a good teacher and absorbed the concept well.

Yes, what you said about the no distinguishing full from empty is very true for a novice. For Tai Ji beginners, the practiced in slow movements, therefore, one can go from Yin to the extreme Yang. Another word, extreme Yang mean one has to go from low to high e.g. from low position to high position. At low level of practice, the hand has to go to the peak almost stopped before returned to the low position.

In the intermediate level, it was more dynamic, the movements do not have to go to the extreme before returning to the opposite direction. This may be considered to be the Yin is within Yang and Yang is within Yin. In the novice level, Yin is to Yang and Yang is to Yin.

Same thing with the foot work. As you had mentioned "your step out with the left foot was heavy". At higher level of practice you want the foot to be heavy to have a good foundation on the ground as analogous to tree with the root solid to the ground.

BTW That was kind of response I was expecting to be coming from the Tai Ji practitioners.

PS...
You may find some minor technical errors in the video because it was my first video. However, basically, the concept was there.

Nice video. Well done with good instruction notes throughout.

 

I've noticed raising the hands higher seems to open a little bit more space in the upper lung.

Thank you both.

Actually, it was causing the ribcage to lock up the lungs. The reason I said was because I had mentioned above. I had met one person raising his hands just a little above the shoulder his breathing stopped instantly. I figured that was the lungs were compress due to the ribcage moved inward with the hands in that position.

thanks for posting. some nice flow. when you are raising your hands(opening) you are doing it much higher than i do. so this is not a criticism, just a difference i notice. i raise mine up to about shoulder height. is there a reason your raise higher?

Yes, the normal height for Tai Ji is at shoulder height. The reason I raise the hands straight up was to test the breathing level because I had met one person that cannot breathe with the hands in that position.

Please make some critical comments.

Yes, I would love to contribute the unwanted truth, here, about how the Yin-Yang concept was applied in Tai Ji Zhuan. Perhaps, that was never introduced or mentioned before to the west.

Definitely not!!

 

I believe that qi is just a component and around it we have all the ways of sustaining its continued renewal and survival of what we term as life.

People always talk about Chi is the "vital energy" and never mention about "oxygen".

1. Do you think both have equal weights in term of "vital energy" for human life...???

2. Which one you think that was more important or which one can we live without...???

1. This completely ignores Qi emission and receiving... almost anybody can walk up to another person and do Qi emission (given a few easy instructions) and the other person will feel it.

 

2. This has nothing to do with "repair".

1. You talking about qi externally.

2. I'm talking about qi internally.

Two different things.