ChiDragon
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Posts posted by ChiDragon
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I'm told by people in the know that those who apply the principles and methods of taoism to taijiquan become very good at it, and of these, some become exceptional, great masters. I'm also told that those who don't incorporate these principles and methods in their practice remain mediocre no matter how long they practice. This makes much sense to me, because not understanding that taijiquan is an internal art of taoist cultivation turns it into a sport, and sports are decisively not taoist and even not Chinese
I can't agree more with you about that. I got the impression that you had learned a great deal about the principles of Taijiquan. Can you shed some lights on these principles...??? Or is it a traditional secret from your masters...??
ooops....edited at the wrong post...
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Just for clarification purposes.
Is this thread discussing the origin/history of 'Taiji' or Taijiquan? Related but separate things no?
Best,
This thread is about the history of Taijiquan. BTW 'Taiji' is also short for Taijiquan. There is no distinction between Taiji and Taijiquan here.
Unless, one is thinking the 'Taiji' in the Yijing, then Taiji is different from Taijiquan; but it is in the complementary relationship with 'Wuji'.
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Why worry about its nomenclature of the style...??? It was only a name and description. The effects of the practice do not change in any way....
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The best thing you can do is to be prepared to sacrifice your life;"sacrifice your life" definitely was not ZZ's philosophy. He wants to be free of all obstacles in his life. That's what he meant by his own definition of "Wu Wei".
"chinese to english translation is kind of weird in general it seems."
"Just ride along with things as you let your mind wander.
Entrust yourself to inevitability and thereby nourish what is
central. That's the ultimate course. What have you to do with
the response of Ch'i? Nothing is better than to fulfill your
destiny, but that's the hardest of all".
且夫乘物以游心，託不得已以養中，至矣。何作為報也！莫若為致命，此其難者。」且順應萬物以悠遊自在，寄託不得已以養心中精氣，這就是至好了。何必作意去報效國君呢！不如真實率情任於天命，這已經是很難的了。」
English translation:
Yet, let's follow the natural movements of all things. If it was not reliable, then let's cultivate the jing chi(精氣) within our hearts. That was the best we can do! Why should one purposely pay royalty to the ruler?! Perhaps we should, honestly and faithfully, just follow the destiny; thus this is a most difficult task already.
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And the two side borders did not change, and I am sure of this because I was keeping my eyes on them.
I thinking one is looking down, from 90,000 miles high above the sky, it seems nothing to be moving. Besides, it took the Peng bird to fly six months to get to the other border. You didn't wait long enough to see a change...
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My personal translation:
Chien Wu asked Lien Shu for help: "I had heard the talking from Chieh Yi. It was all lies without boundary. When he start talking, he goes off on a tangent and never return to the main point. I was very frightened about his words, it seems like boundless as the Milky Way Galaxy; and it was extraordinary and so remote from others. In reality, it was so unreasonable."
Lien Shu asked: "What did he say?"
Chien Wu explained: "On the top of Gu Ye hill far way from here, there is an immortal lived there, his skin is clear white seems like icy snow, the body is so soft seems like a virgin, he does not eat the five grains, he breathes the clean wind and drinks the sweet dew, he rides on the clouds seems like a fling dragon, he travels outside the four seas. His appearance was so devoted, he can free all things in the world from diseases and make every year to have a great harvest of the five grains. I reckon that was all empty talks and everything was unbelievable."
After Lien Shu heard then said: "Yes! In regarding to the blinds, It's impossible to appreciate the decorative design and colors with them; and to the mutes, it was impossible to share the musical sounds of the bells and drums with them. Could it be said that only a physical body has mute and blindness? Our thinking also could be muted and blinded. This seems was addressing to you, Chien Wu. That immortal(神人), his virtue status was like so. He has blended in with all things together. With that, it was able him to take care the whole world. Then who would consider that involving with the busy world affairs was nothing to it. With this kind of person, there was no external matter that can harm him; the great floods cannot drown him; he would not feel the heat an eruption of a volcano. With any scraps of dust and crumbs of bread and grain as wastes like that, he can produce the kind of sagacious rulers like Yao and Xun, how would he be considering in caring for all things as his obligation."
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The passage without the story looks like this in Burton Watson's translation:
"How do I know that loving life is not a delusion?
How do I know that in hating death I am not like a man who,
having left home in his youth, has forgotten the way back?
How do I know that the dead do not wonder why they ever longed for life?"
Three 'How do I know' questions about life and death.
The subject of the second is about a man, having left home in his youth,
which confirms the translation 'son of Ai the border warden'.
There's no nothing in the three questions indicating 'a woman on the way to her wedding'
Sorry that you have to rely on somebody's mistranslation. If you understand what it was said in the cartoon, then you wouldn't have such problem.
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Hi Todd...
Thanks for introducing the four basic characters for the spiritual descriptions of "spirits". May I add some descriptions in a non-medical field but just for the daily usage in the Chinese language in expressing some kinds of spirits...???
There are other meanings for the following characters. Since this thread is about spirit, therefore, I will restrict myself to the definitions pertaining to spirits to avoid confusion. Thus I hope others and lienshan will do the same...
1. 靈(hun2): a spirit like a ghost or god in general.
2. 靈魂(ling2 hun2): a free spirit roaming outside of a body.
3. 魂魄(hun2 po4): a soul of the body.
4. 鬼魂(gui3 hun2): a spirit of a ghost
5. 鬼(gui3): a ghost
6. 神(shen2): a deity or spiritual god.
靈(ling): In General, the character by itself, it is just a spirit. It was used as compound with the character 魂. 靈魂(ling2 hun2) is a free roaming spirit. When the 魂魄(soul) left the body, it becomes a 靈魂(ling2 hun2) as a free roaming spirit without a body shell.
A 靈魂(ling2 hun2) is a ghost(鬼); a spirit of a ghost(鬼魂). However, 神(shen2) was not classified as a spirit because it is a deity which governs over the spirits. Normally, the term 神(shen2) was used more often by the Taoist religion while a Buddhist called his god as a Buddha. A Taoist may be cultivated to be an immortal then become a 神人(shen2 ren2). IMO a 神人 is a Taoist immortal who is in between god and human.
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A skilled cook was slicing an ox but not chopping it.
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仲尼曰：「譆，若殆往而刑耳！夫道不欲雜，雜則多，多則擾，擾則憂，憂而不救。
"Alas," said Confucius, "I'm afraid you'll end up in trouble if
you go there. The Way should not be adulterated. Adulteration
leads to multiplicity, multiplicity to confusion, confusion to
worry. When one is worried, one cannot be saved.
古之至人，先存諸己而后存諸人。所存於己者未定，何暇至於暴人之所行！
The ultimate men of the past first sought to preserve it in themselves and only
after that to preserve it in others. Before one has settled what one
seeks to preserve in oneself, where is there any leisure to attend to
the behavior of a tyrant?
且若亦知夫德之所蕩而知之所為出乎哉？德蕩乎名，知出乎爭。名也者，相軋也﹔知也者，爭之器也。二者凶器， 非所以盡行也。
"Furthermore, do you know wherein integrity is dissipated
and wherein knowledge is elicited? Integrity is dissipated
through fame and knowledge is elicited by contention. Fame
implies mutual conflict; knowledge is an instrument of conten-
tion. Both are instruments of evil and not something for which
one should strive.
且德厚信矼，未達人氣﹔名聞不爭，未達人心。而強以仁義繩墨之言衒暴人之前者，是以人惡有其美也，命之曰菑人。菑人者，人必反菑之。若殆為 人菑夫。
Besides, a person of substantial integrity and solid trust
may still not gain the approval of others; a person who does not
contend for name and fame may still not gain the acquiescence
of others. In such circumstances, forcibly to flaunt talk about
humaneness, righteousness, and codes of conduct before a tyrant
would be to glorify oneself at the expense of another's failings.
This is called 'hurting others.' Those who hurt others will
certainly be hurt by others in return. I'm afraid that you'll be
hurt by others!
且苟為人悅賢而惡不肖，惡用而求有以異？若唯無詔，王公必將乘人而鬥其捷。而目將熒之，而色將平之，口將營之，容將形之，心且成之。是以火救火， 以水救水，名之曰益多。順始無窮，若殆以不信厚言，必死於暴人之前矣！
"What's more, if the lord appreciates the worthy and de-
spises the unworthy, what need is there for you to try to be
different? If you do not offer your views, the prince will certainly
take advantage to display his own eloquence. Your eyes will be
dazzled, your face fall flat, your mouth mutter diffidently, your
expression embody your submissiveness, and your mind will
confirm it. This is to fight fire with fire, drain water with water.
We may call it excess: If you are compliant from the start, there
will be no end to it. But I fear that if you speak honestly to
someone who does not trust you, you will certainly die at the
hands of the tyrant
且昔者桀殺關龍逢，紂殺王子比干，是皆修其身以下傴拊人之民，以下拂其上者也，故其 君因其修以擠之。是好名者也。昔者堯攻叢、枝、胥、敖，禹攻有扈。國為虛厲，身為刑戮。其用兵不止，其求實無已，是皆求名實者也，而獨不聞之乎？名實者， 聖人之所不能勝也，而況若乎！雖然，若必有以也，嘗以語我來。」
"Of old, Kuan Lungp'ang was executed by Chieh and Prince
Pikan was executed by Chow. Both had cultivated themselves as
inferiors out of solicitude for their rulers' subjects. As inferiors,
they ran afoul of their superiors, consequently their lords pushed
them aside. This was due to their love of fame. Also, of old, Yao
attacked Ts'ungchih and Hsii'ao, and Yu attacked the freehold at
Hu. These countries were reduced to haunted wastelands and
their rulers put to death. They were constantly engaged in war
and always on the lookout for gain. These are all examples of
individuals who sought fame or gain. Haven't you heard of them?
Even the sage could not conquer the attractions of fame and
gain. Can you? Nonetheless you must have a plan in mind. Let us
hear what it is."
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Your 'modern interpretation' doesn't fit well with the official story of Li Ji
姬 was the ancestral name of her husband the deceased Duke Xian of Jin.
Her name was 麓姬 Li Ji while he lived and 麓之姬 when she became widowed.
The phrase 晉國之始 'the first of the Jin state' must therefore refer to the heir!
Ji Li had the legal heir killed before Duke Xian died and her own 15 years old son Xiqi installed as new ruler.
She was thus de facto 'the King' of Jin one month until Xiqi was assassinated. Maybe that's the pointe?
But I do still not understand 'son of the border-warden Ai'
The only Ai that could fit in is 'Duke Ai the lamentable' (494-467 BC) known from Zuo Zhuan.
One of Ai's stories looks like the beginning of Nie Que and Wang Ni dialogue:
He sent Ran You to ask Zhong Ni (Confucius) about the subject.
He replied that he did not know about it.
Three times he gave this answer to inquiries pressed upon him.
Nie Que asked Wang Ni, saying, 'Do you know, Sir, what all creatures agree in approving and affirming?' 'How should I know it?' was the reply. 'Do you know what it is that you do not know?' asked the other again, and he got the same reply. He asked a third time, 'Then are all creatures thus without knowledge?' and Wang Ni answered as before,
lienshan........No, no, no.....
姬 can be both an ancestral name and a first name.
It happens to be the first name of 麓姬(Li Ji). Her first name has nothing to do with the ancestral name of another man.
FYI Her maiden name was 麓姬.
PS...
I love you very much.
Please don't do this to me again.
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Yen Hui went to see Confucius and requested permission to takea trip.
"Where are you going?" asked Confucius.
"I'm going to the state of Wey.
""What will you do there?"
"I have heard that the Lord of Wey is behaving dictatorially
in the vigor of his youth. He is frivolous in exercising his state
prerogatives and is blind to his own faults . He looks lightly upon
the death of his people, and those who die for the state fill the
swamps like so many withered weeds. The people have no place
to turn. Master, I have heard you say that one may leave a well-
ordered state and go to one that is in chaos. 'There are many sick
people at the gate of a physician.' In conformity with what you
told me, I wish to think of a plan whereby perhaps I may cure the
sickness of the state of Wey"
It seems to me that Victor Mair's translation is close and simple. I would like to use it just to point out some minor discrepancies.
"Yen Hui went to see Confucius and requested permission to take a trip."
Actually, Yen Hui went to see Confucius for his farewell for his departure to the State of Wei.
The theme of the parable:
If one is young and with power, mostly lightly he didn't know better nor how to handle matters in his present environment. Thus it's advisable not to give too much power to a young person in the vigour of his years.
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Classic Text
麓之姬，艾封人之子也。晉國之始得之也，涕泣沾襟。及其至於王所，與王同筐床，食芻豢，而後悔其泣也。予惡乎知夫死者不悔其始之蔪生乎？Modern interpretation.
這一段開首舉麗姬為例。麗姬是春秋戰國時代麗戎國艾地守封疆人之女，被晉國俘虜，起初涕泣沾襟，及後得晉獻公寵愛，生活很舒服，吃得很好，就後悔當年何必哭泣呢。按照這個例，你就可以知道，「予惡乎知夫死者不悔其始之蔪生乎。」現實上都是這樣，都是顛倒的，顛三倒四。麓之姬: A girl named 麗姬(Li Ji) is a daughter of a feudal king of the State of 麗戎(Li Rong). She was a captive of the Jin State. At the beginning she was crying and wetting her dress; but later the King of Jin treated her well by given her good foods and comfortable living quarter. Then, she was regretted that was crying so sad at first. This is an irony showing how people change their feelings and have different sentimental values in different situations.
The confusing part was that the name of the girl 麗姬(Li Ji) has the same character, 麗, in the state 麗戎(Li Rong).
麓之姬: 麗戎 之 麗姬; Li Ji of Li Rong. <<--- The sentence structure in English and Chinese are reverse as in this case.
Analogous to:
1. lienshan of Sweden
2. Charles of Wales.
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One problem is the phrase 麗之姬 ???
麗姬 Li Ji occurs in the previous 'Nie Que asked Wang Ni story':
毛嬙 麗姬 人之所美 也 Mao Qiang and Li Ji were accounted by men to be most beautiful ...
And 麗姬 Li Ji occurs too in this not translated story but one line from it:
晉獻公伐虢 得麗姬 Jin offer Duke to stab Guo to get Ji Li
麗之姬，艾封人之子也。晉國之始得之也，
OK. It was the way that the phrase was worded. Yes, 麗姬 is a girl....
Sometimes, I see that the "之子" was referred as "the child of" instead of "the son of" . It was rare though.I hope we are clear on this, now, from our meaningful dialogue....
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How did you translate 之子, the son of, to be a daughter...???All translators ... Legge, Craham, Correa, Chen, Watson ... translates 'daughter of'.
I don't know who was copying whom. IMO They are in error.
子: son
女: daughter.
Please don't let these blind men lead you.
And my translation guru professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank has another opinion than you.
Sorry, I do regret that he is not thoroughly familiar with the language.
FYI...
王來: The king is coming.
王之來: The coming of the king; the purpose for the king's arrival.....was.....
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Your knowledge of modern chinese is both an advantage and a disadvantage. But honestly:
This text is early Han language written like the Mawangdui versions of Tao Teh Ching.
ZhuangTze says: "Do not use your point of view to perceive the point of view of others." It was advisable to understand the person before making a judgment...
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1. Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her, she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept.
This little story inside the story relates to this confucian Analects text
2. Confucius choose the criminal Gong Ye Chang as husband to his daughter!
Confucius choose to believe that he was not guilty ...
3. I cannot at first sight see, what this little story has to do within the context?
So I view it as another hint to the identity of Zhuangzi's fictional Chang Wu Zi,
but you are maybe able to enlighten me?
1. After Li Ji eating all the good foods on a comfortable bed in the palace, then she was wondering how silly she was crying so bad on the way to the palace.
2. Chang Wu Zi understood the bird language, he heard the birds said: "let's go eat the dead body under the tree by the river." Then Chang Wu Zi heard an old lady was crying while looking for her son. He told her that there is a body by the river. It was her son, but Chang Wu Zi was arrested for murdering her son. Later, he was exonerated because he proved himself to the officials that he heard that from the birds to locate the dead body. Confucius knew he was not guilty and a gentleman, thus Confucius was honored to have him as a son-in-law.
3. Zhuangzi was used the little story as an analogy for his next illustration:
Everybody is afraid of death, ZZ was wondering is there someone ever regret for what he had lived for after his death.
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is the 1200 BC oracle character meaning 'a hill or mound, big, elder, empty'It developed into the modern chinese character 丘 and was too the name of Confucius.
Names were in classical chinese language marked with an added 也 character in texts.
Your 'emphasize' is the modern nowadays way of reading the 也 in chinese language.
Please remember ... Zhuangzi is not a daily newspaper but an ancient pre-Qin text
Thank you for reminding me(a stupid native) how to read pre-Qin text. ....
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2. Ju Que Zi asked using the respectful term 夫子 to name Confucius.
3. Chang Wu Zi answered using the personal name 丘也 to name Confucius.
4. Zhuangzi's agenda writing so is to guide the reader to identify the persons speaking,
which helps the reader to understand the hidden pointe connected with the two persons.
1. I cannot confirm that Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is the same person as Gongye Chang 公冶長 form the ref-site.
2. Yes, 夫子 was used short for Confucius(孔夫子).
3. 丘 is Confucius original name. The character 也 was used to emphasize that we are talking about him particularly. It was not used to relate him to a family member.
4. Sorry, this is not the way we do it in the Chinese language....
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Classic text
瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」
長梧子曰：「是黃帝之所聽熒也，而丘也何足以知之！且女亦大早計，見卵而求時夜，見彈而求鴞炙。
Modern interpretation
瞿鵲子向長梧子問道：「我從孔夫子那裡聽到這樣的談論：聖人不從事瑣細的事務，不追逐私利，不迴避災害，不喜好貪求，不因循成規；沒說什麼又好像說了些什麼，說了些什麼又好像什麼也沒有說，因而遨遊於世俗之外。孔夫子認為這些都是輕率不當的言論，而我卻認為是精妙之道的實踐和體現。先生你認為怎麼樣呢？」
長梧子說：「這些話黃帝也會疑惑不解的，而孔丘怎麼能夠知曉呢！而且你也謀慮得太早，就好像見到雞蛋便想立即得到報曉的公雞，見到彈子便想立即獲取烤熟的斑鳩肉。
English translation of the above interpretation
Ju Que Zi asked Chang Wu Zi and said: "I have heard this from Confucius's dialogue: A sage doesn't do anything that was trivial, he doesn't pursue personal gains; he doesn't evade adversity; he is not greedy; he doesn't make a habit become a rule; by not saying anything but it seems something has been said; by saying something but it seems like nothing has been said. Because of taking a journey outside of this world, Confucius thought these are flippant discourse, but I reckon that was the subtle practice and embodying. And Mr. what do you think...???"
Chang Wu Zi(長梧子) said: "These kind of thoughts even Huang Di was doubtful, then, how could Confucius know about this! And you are worrying about it too soon; it seems like when you see an egg and then immediately you want to go to inform the rooster; and when you see a spark of the fire then immediately you want to reach for the barbecued turtledove.
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瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰： 「吾聞諸夫子，.....」
Ju Que Zi was asking Chang Wu Zi by saying: "I have heard it from the great teacher......"
1. Chang Wu Zi mentions Confucius using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.
2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is equal to Gongye Chang 公冶長, styled Zi-chang (al. Zi-zhi) 子長 (al. 子芝).
He was son-in-law to Confucius.
1. I am not sure about that: using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.
2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 was a disciple of Confucius. I am not sure about the son-in-law part...!!!
是黃帝之所聽熒也: Even Huang Di heard it and became vague,
而丘也何足以知之: Then how could Confucius be understood that.
Entry-level Taoism?
in Daoist Discussion
Posted
Thank you very much.
oops.......sorry
I posted the demo at the wrong place.....