ChiDragon

To me he is certainly not a taiji master. What do you think is so great about him - in terms of taijiquan?

I mean sure you wouldn't want to fight him, he strikes quickly and looks very aggressive, but seriously he looks VERY external. The way he just gives hard palm strikes to his students shows he either doesnt have any internal power or is just very irresponsible.

It was so great about him was not in terms of Tai Ti Quang but it was his Tai Ji Jin(太極勁). If you understand what Jin(勁) is, then you'll know what I meant. I was talking about his Jin in his demo without his student or in contact with the student. His internal power or neigong is very powerful. Another word, he has been developed lots of Jin from his long periods of practice.

"The way he just gives hard palm strikes to his students shows he either doesnt have any internal power"

If he showed some real internal power, then, his student will be dead instantly. Do you see what I am saying...???

You've clearly not read Grandmaster Feng Zhi Qiang's book on the subject then. Let me quote:

 

"Forget about breathing. You will breath naturally."

 

Now, just in case you are tempted to further claim I don't understand, let me point some things out to you. I live in China, and have done for several years. I have also been personally instructed in Hunyuan neigong by two members of Grandmaster Feng's family as well as a personal student. I am very clear in my understanding in regards to breathing using this method,( there is non, beyond natural breathing) and I am quite sure my teachers have not deliberately mislead me, or that I have misunderstood them.

 

I will go further and say there are few men alive more respected that Grandmaster Feng on the subject of taijiquan or qigong. Grandmaster Feng's qigong teacher, Hu Yao Zhen, was one of the most revered masters of the 20th century.

 

You are simply wrong, but by all means keep on digging...

"Forget about breathing. You will breath naturally."

The practice of natural breathing was very true for a novice. As one progresses in the practice, at higher level, the breathing will be deeper and deeper. You may do natural breathing and stay at the amateur level if you want.

See the attached screen print.

 

From 'Qigong Fever: body, science and utopia in China by David A. Palmer.

 

Introduction, page 8:

 

"It was only in 1949 that qigong became a global category which aimed to include all Chinese breathing, meditation and gymnastic techniques."

氣功 was know to the Chinese civilization for more than two centuries. It was introduced to the other parts of the world in 1949. Qigong was only the phonetics in pronouncing these two characters. FYI It's real meaning means breathing exercise. But somebody translated that "qi" as "energy". That was why the notion of qi as energy took off like mad. Then, the people in the world start imaging what they thought it was and created many fancy names and write books about it to make lots of money with misconceptions and misleading information.

It's not a good or truthful message. Qigong can also be body movements or mind exercises. It doesn't have to be all three at once. And if a method causes changes in the breath, without being a breathing practice, then it still counts.

 

So I don't see the point of this thread at all.

Qigong are mainly breathing with the body movements and mind exercises know as Dynamic Qigong. However, the last two exercises are optional. e.g. Sitting Qigong was mainly breathing without body movements or mind exercises.

PS...

This thread is necessary to clarify some of the misconceptions and misunderstanding about Qigong once and for all. One can assume what it was any way s/he wants, of course, with many fallacies.

1. How the term 'qigong' came to be adopted is detailed in the book 'Qigong Fever' by David A. Palmer-no need to go and learn how to read Chinese. The term 'qigong' was picked as a catch-all term for the various different traditional methods and schools that existed. These consist of a myriad of different methods.

 

2. Does 'qigong' have to be a 'breathing method'? No. Hu Yao Zhen's practices are not based around conscious control of breathing, but breathing does change as a result of practice. One should not put the cart in front of the horse.

 

3. I reference Hu as he was one of the key leaders in popularising qigong. I would also note that those who have passed down his teachings use the term 'neigong' rather than 'qigong'. Various traditional schools use their own specific terms still. Qigong simply provides a useful umbrella term. Just like running is part of athletics, neigong is part of qigong.

 

4. If a person actually wants to gain true understanding, they would be better off not using the term qigong, and instead should look to and understand the traditional terms. Qigong is too vague, too general, and is not used by top level masters I have met.

 

5. It would be fair to say that specific breathing methods are a part of the majority of qigong methods and so in general you could say it is a requirement. It is important to be aware though that it is not an absolute requirement of every school.

1. That's where you had it all wrong due to the lack of understanding of the language and depends on some misfed information. Please read dawei's post above.

2. Needless to say.

3. Neigong simply means internal practice. Any breathing exercise was consider to be neigong. By the Chinese definition, Qigong is a breathing exercise, thus Qigong is part of Neigong. In general, it's not the other way around.

4. Qigong is too vague, too general, and is not used by top level masters I have met. That was the only way you were taught. Yes, you didn't learned from the tradition way. Somebody had reinvented the wheel for you and misinformed you.

5.This is not a very good general statement. BTW all martial arts depends on breathing, but Qigong was emphasized on slow and deep breathing.

Happy Qigong or Chi Kung breathing....

I don't think you can tell that much about a persons fighting skill and fa jin skill when they are using one of their students for demonstration purposes. I'd like to see him in a cage match or on the Lei Tai. He looks knowledgable and skillful but he's not being tested.

One does not has to be in contact with anyone to see how good the person is. One can tell by the way he practice to determine what level he is in. If one practice long enough, one can tell the level of the others. The practitioner in the first video, he was using lots of Jin in his moves. I know he is not a novice but a real Tai Ji master. I don't want to mess with him.

Yup. Why do you ask??

 

I was just curious about the way you were talking about Fa Jin for being a Tai Chi practitioner.

I was 1st taught in school, somewhere back in the 80's I tried to keep practicing by myself, with books and what teachers I could find through school and university. But no great improvement till I met my Sifu in 2002.

Perhaps, you may not to buy the CD after all. My body tells me that I don't since my Tai Ji practice in 1975.

And another way of looking at it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf44kawWBvY&feature=related

 

Now this is Tai Ji Gong, the highest level of Tai Ji that one would like to be achieved. A real Tai Ji master does not need to jump and move around as much. Anyone has to move so much, jumping up and down, fall with the opponent and does lots of kicking, that was the combination of American boxing and wresting. It may not be called Tai Ji.

...., but breathing does change as a result of practice.

Please just don't forget to neglect this unimportant fact. It says it all.

PS...

The more we learn, the less we know.

dawei....

My reference:

氣功（炁功）是透過以呼吸[1]的調整、身體活動的調整和意識[2]的調整（調息，調形，調心）為鍛煉方法，務求達到強身健體、健康身心、抗病延年、開發潛能等目的。

Chi Kung are to go through the adjustment of breathing, the adjustment of the body activity and the intend of the mind(breathing, physical, mind) as the fundamental for cultivation. The goal is to enhance the health of the body, mental health, immune system, brings out the ultimate potential of the human body.

Your reference:

In summary, Qi Gong takes "body regulation", "breath regulation", and "mind regulation" as its three key components. Qi Gong emphasizes the cultivation and the harmony of human beings with the nature,

Thank you. Since have you a good Chinese source, it would be a good idea to use them to be compared with the understanding of the western Chi Kung practitioners.

Mal...

How long have you been practicing Tai Ji Quan....???

It is too difficult to cite a Chinese website to someone that cannot read the language. To translate it, then something gets lost in the translation.

吐納(tu3 na4) was the original Chinese term for the practice of Chi Kung.

 

Anyway, shall we stay within the discussion of the method rather than looking into its history...???

Please read my original post.

BTW If you haven't sensed that the intention of this thread was to tell the Chinese side of the story, then I'm so sorry. However, if the westerner stories are going to be presented here again, then it would be defeated to whole purpose of this thread.

屯(Zhun1) - MWD; Hendricks translates as dull/depressed; but Hex 3 means difficult [at first]

偆 - FuYi; Happy

醇(chun2) - HeSheng Gong ; Pure (like unadulterated alcohol, not alcohol radical)

淳(chun2) - WB printed by everyone but not what he used: Simple, Genuine, pure, honest,

惇 - WB used this; and his notes too: Kindhearted, honest

純(chun2) - Huainanzi uses this when quoting the four lines: Pure, simple, unmixed

All these characters almost sounded alike, at different times, phonetics were used because each codex was made from an oral recital. That was why we see different characters with the same phonetics. Later scholars had discover that 淳(chun2) has the proper meaning of the character to be used in the Received copy. BTW The Received version was so close to the WB version because it was based on WB's copy.

I normally refer to that as the "Fortunate/Unfortunate" story. And true, we are not talking about ends, we are talking about processes.

 

But then Chuang Tzu also talked about "Who knows where it will end?"

 

This might be a character/concept misinterpretation.

LaoTze only cares for the good results.

Zhuang Tze couldn't careless as long it doesn't bother him.

ok, but do you have a source using the word Chi Kung prior to the Communist started used it as an umbrealla term for movement and static methods - some times original Daoist methods, sometimes not.

 

This thread reminds me of Stigwaerd's thread where some scholar tried to define what Daoism is

It is too difficult to cite a Chinese website to someone that cannot read the language. To translate it, then something gets lost in the translation.

吐納(tu3 na4) was the original Chinese term for the practice of Chi Kung.

Anyway, shall we stay within the discussion of the method rather than looking into its history...???

ChiDragon, does it matter which view one has in practising?

 

In breathing one has to let go, so this cannot be forced. It comes on its own. I have had bad experiences with methods that regulate breathing, .

 

Personally, I resonate more with Ya Mu's definition of qigong and it does not involve breathing.

Did you know if there is no breathing involvement, then it was not considered to be Chi Kung. ..??? This is the message I'm trying to bring across.

You have had bad experiences with methods that regulate breathing, because you did not do it right and that's why people take Chi Kung lessons to improve their breathing. To be honest with you, if one has no improvement in breathing, then there is no health improvement as one of the claims by the art of Chi Kung.

Although, I can't read chinese, that page appears to be flagged for review. In any case, wikipedia is not what I would consider the definitive source to go to on any topic, in any language.

Please don't close your door because it is wikipedia or a different language. There are lot of good information in them. I know you don't read Chinese, that's why I had translated into English.

It is something to be considered here. I practice Tai Chi and Chi Kung based on the concepts specified here. It was the original concept on Chi Kung. You cannot read any material about Chi Kung without a mention of breathing as a fundamental factor.

Ref: 氣功（炁功） vs Chi Kung

氣功（炁功）是透過以呼吸[1]的調整、身體活動的調整和意識[2]的調整（調息，調形，調心）為鍛煉方法，務求達到強身健體、健康身心、抗病延年、開發潛能等目的。

Chi Kung are to go through the adjustment of breathing, the adjustment of the body activity and the intend of the mind(breathing, physical, mind) as the fundamental for cultivation. The goal is to enhance the health of the body, mental health, immune system, brings out the ultimate potential of the human body.

氣功的種類繁多，主要可分為動功和靜功。動功是指以身體的活動為主的氣功，如導引派以動功為主，特點是強調與意氣相結合的肢體操作。而靜功是指身體不動，只靠意識、呼吸的自我控制來進行的氣功。大多氣功方法是動靜相間的。宗教中，道教的道士常會練習導引、內丹術氣功，佛教裡的禪定、靜坐也包含氣功。

There are many types of Chi Kung, primarily, it can be differentiated with Dynamic and Static Chi Kung. The Dynamic Chi Kung is mainly involved with body movements, especially, emphasized on the body exercise with the combination of Yi(mind) and Chi(breathing). The Static Chi Kung is not involving with any body movement; only emphasizing on the Yi(mind) and self regulating and control of the breathing(Chi). Many methods of Chi Kung are involved in between both dynamically and statically. Religiously, Taoist practice 導引, nei dan alchemical Chi King. Buddhism practice Zen and zazen which involves Chi Kung.

Please notice that there is no mention of Chi as "energy", here, in the Chinese literature.

Guys please give me a straight answer here. Is running your energy through the front orbit a valid way of gathering more yin energy in your being?

 

Cheers.

tulku...

If you want to learn Chi Kung, learn to breathe.

My advice to you is if you don't have at least five years of Chi Kung experience, please don't fool with this kind of stuff. You are going to hurt your body more than your sexual enjoyment.

 

Personally I choose to neither believe nor disbelieve but let evidence with a good degree of critical thinking speak for itself.

 

Stigweard...

I have the impression that you are a Tai Chi instructor, am I correct....???

Personally, I choose to neither believe nor disbelieve but to be experienced myself.

dawei..........

That was exactly where I am tried to get to.

I do appreciate your humblest opinion. You said it all and said it well.

I thank you very much....

Very good, even more technical terms are created, in English, to confuse the western public...

BTW I was not fond of the Chinese definition of 衛氣(Wei Qi) neither.

I am also very disappointed that there are so many people who practice and teach Tai Chi Quan without knowing the definition of Jin nor how to recognize the demonstration of Fa Jin. I am speechless....

1. The government seems dull and depressing,

2. Then, the people are primitive and simple.

3. The government seems harsh and acrimonious,

4. Then, the people are cunning and sanctimonious.

13.Only a sage with corners which do not cut,

14.Sharp but harmless,

15.Blunt but not intemperate,

16.Bright but not dazzling,

5. Misfortune leaning against fortune,

6. Fortune hidden in misfortune.

7. Who knows the ultimate outcome?

8. There is no answer.

9. Truth become fallacy

10.Kindness become devilish.

11.The people are living with confusion,

12.These kind of days had been too long.

Note:Please notice the order if the lines had been changed to keep the logic flow.

58

1. 其政悶悶，

2. 其民淳淳。

3. 其政察察，

4. 其民缺缺。

5. 禍尚福之所倚。

6. 福尚禍之所伏。

7. 孰知其極，

8. 其無正。

9. 正復為奇，

10.善復為妖。

11.人之迷其日固久。

12.是以聖人

13.方而不割。

14.廉而不劌。

15.直而不肆。

16.光而不燿。