ChiDragon

It is not a compliment. Either you don't know the subtle of the english language or your just playing another word game. He was direct with his meaning after all. If you don't really understand his meaning then you really missed his point. Another observation.

My friend, it seems you like to speak for others and speculate too.

Hiya ChiDragon, methinks you are trying to twist Laozi to support your own world view. This is actually more than OK, we all are perpetrators of this to at least a small extent; it's how we learn and evolve from Laozi's wisdom.

 

Both in Ch1 and Ch14 my insignificant view is that Laozi is highlighting our desperate and ultimately futile need to hold and label something. We can't see the form of Dao so we try and describe it as invisible, we can't hear it so we try and describe it as inaudible, we can't grasp it so we try and describe it as intangible.

 

But just as the descriptive "Dao" is not the eternal Dao or the subtle universal truth, neither are any of these other descriptives. And yet Laozi presents us with the possibility that the unseen, unheard, unreachable essence of Dao can be attained or experienced.

 

I must thank you for your gushing compliment in accusing me of being trying to twist Laozi to support my own world view. I would like you to know that I don't have the wisdom or the intelligence of LaoTze to rewrite the Tao Te Ching. The only thing that I can do is to translate it as close as possible without more or less. My goal was not to add more to twist the meaning or have less to have something get lost in the translation.

I was only translating Chapters 1 and 14 of what it says in the classic text. I am not perfect but I think I'm capable of translating the TTC to an 80 to 90% accuracy without guessing its meaning, of course, with some good references and reliable sources.

wagner is par for the course, nonsensical, he makes the same customary mistake of reading 者 as a person))

 

first line is describing how Dao operates, while second line gives the obvious but uncomprehended example

 

 

反者道之動；弱者道之用。

 

recycling is Dao's process, death is Dao's application

 

 

天下萬物生於有，有生於無

 

under Heaven all things are born into being, and from being born go into nothingness.

 

simple really.

simple really.

I will not comment on the former, bit it seems to me the logic was reversed in the latter.

Should it read(keeping your own words)...???

天下萬物生於有，有生於無

under Heaven all things are born from being, and being born from nothingness.

I don't think you realize that your translation suggests it as well:

Chapter 1 The eternal Tao

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

This suggests: If you speak [anything] about Tao, it's not the eternal Tao... even chapter 14 or ANY chapter. So you should evaluate your own interpretation a little further before pulling the speck out of another's eye.

 

But it's getting old and I don't like to play some of these games.

Is that how we interpret and come to a conclusion by our personal feeling about the age of the document; and are we playing games here....???

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. Tao that can be spoken cannot be the eternal Tao.

May I ask you this; "is not" and "cannot be" are they saying the something...???

To me, "is not" but there is still a possibility that "can be". However, "cannot be" everything was locked out. Do you see the nuance in the logic.

Besides, the character 非(fei1) means "not" but not "cannot be".

PS...

It would be appreciated if one just get to the point with the relevancy of the subject.

May I ask everyone to keep the personal part out of the discussion, so, it can be more constructive...??

Descriptions of Dao, cannot be the eternal Dao.

Okay, If I follow your logic correctly, then any description of Tao was indicating that Tao cannot be the eternal Tao. What about the descriptions of Tao in Chapter 14 by LaoTze. Is he describing the eternal Tao or not....???

LOL you misread what I posted

 

Dao is "eternal" but descriptions of Dao are not. My opening two lines says that quite clearly.

 

Descriptions of Dao, cannot be the eternal Dao.

Do you mean this line says Dao is eternal.....????

Bingo.

 

When I translated this line, I actually wrote the last part as: "Observe its origin". Two lines later I ended it with "observe its boundary".

 

BTW: I am often curious why people translate it as "mystery" since once without desires it is not really a mystery at all. It is a mystery to them who cannot grasp it, yes?

Yes, I am with you all the way, but 玄 is very difficult to translate into English, even in Chinese was still hard to comprehend this character.

Following the naming convention is only ritual, do you think the meaning of the existing posted translation will be changed...????

1. Descriptions of Dao,

Cannot be the eternal Dao.

2. Though names may be given,

They cannot be eternal names.

I can go along with the logic in 2 but not 1. It is because in many Chapters, LaoTze has many descriptions of Tao. How can Tao cannot be eternal...??? If Tao is not eternal, then why was LaoTze spending so much time in describing it...???

LaoTze has a good description of Tao in Chapter 14 indicating that Tao is formless but existed. Since Tao is formless, isn't there an indication that Tao is eternal...???

Chapter 14 The intangible Tao.

1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.

4. These three objects blended in one.

5. Its top not brilliant.

6. Its bottom nor dim.

7. Its continuance unnameable.

8. Returned to being nothingness,

9. Is called form of no form.

10. An image of nothingness,

11. Is called obscure.

11. Greet it cannot see its head.

13. Follow it cannot see its back.

14. Grasp the presence of Tao,

15. Driven all the present physical being

16. Able to understand the ancient origin,

17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

Hi everyone,

 

I've been practicing FP chi kung volumes 1-3 diligently for almost 5 months now and I'm noticing some positive results, but not as much as I would like from practicing 2 hours a day.

 

I think it's time to incorporate some form of nei kung into my daily routine (I just to the 5 tibetan rites and the chi kung for now).

 

Where should I begin? I've heard and read about the microcosmic orbit but I'm very cautious about what to approach first. I read the celestial nei kung thread but am again unsure if that's what I should begin with. There is so much out there. Would simple meditation do the trick? FWIW, I have zero ability to visualize (create images in my head) but I'm able to move and direct energy within myself if it's there, so I was leaning towards the MCO but I wanted your guys opinions on this. I have been doing guided chakra meditations for years now on and off but never got anything useful out of doing that....

Are we clearly on the definition of Nei Kung...???

Nei Kung is general term applies to any form of internal cultivation. Any form of Chi Kung was considered to be a form of Nei Kung.

Chapter 1 The eternal Tao

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

Why is Tao eternal...???

It is because line 1 implicates that Tao is eternal. Line 2 also was implicating that Tao is eternal. What line 2 says was that any given name to a thing is not eternal. Does that implicate that the thing may be eternal but not the name itself...??? Yes, the reason that LaoTze starts with these two lines was to give himself some room to work with. So he can describe Tao freely.

He says Tao is eternal but any given name is not. According to LaoTze, Tao is not really Tao because it is just a chaotic thing which is eternal. Hence, he can call the eternal Tao with any name, e.g. Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), please notice the caps are indicating that they are proper nouns. The names are just a temporary nomenclature for Tao at any instant in LoaTze's thoughts. Even the name Tao was only temporary in the Tao Te Ching for the convenience to describe it. Sometimes, LoaTze called it Tao, Wu2, You3, One or something else.

Lines 3 and 4 have a good indication that Tao is eternal for the following reasons.

The reason he called Tao, Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), was because he wants to establish a reference point in time to distinguish the two different states for Tao.

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

This statement implicating that Tao even existed before heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

This statement implicating that Tao has been manifested by all the things had come to existence.

Anybody have any thoughts on this...???

howdy!

 

i am most definitely not qualified to answer this, however, i'll throw my opinion in here for what it's worth (less than 2 cents). my understanding is that the title "tao te ching" translates nearly directly to "way and virtue classic". therefore, the ttc actually seems to talk about two major subjects, "tao" and "te"...way and virtue. the dividing line being between 37 and 38. the first part (1-37) talks about tao...it's attributes, how to cultivate it in your life...general tao related stuff. the second part (38-81) talks about virtue and what true virtue is. the second part also seems to tell us how we can align ourselves with the first part of the book, by learning about virtue.

 

so my attempt to provide a definitive answer would be "yes" and "no"!!

 

yes, the whole book is about how to live a life according to the tao and how to realign our physical selves with it. but it does this is a manner which seems to focus on virtue as a means of realignment.

 

anyways that is what i have been taught and it is my understanding. feel free to disagree completely, and call me full of it. perfectly understandable!

I cannot disagree completely but agreed all with you. You are full of the basic knowledge of the TTC.

Note: if you read the whole link, what is so interesting is that it lacks the genes for carbon metabolism in terms of glycolysis, meaning it can't break down glucose.It generates its energy by taking it from a host, it's an obligate parasite. So it can't make pyruvate but it can import it from the host, along with whatever else it lacks. On its own, it cannot generate sufficient energy.

That's all it need is two molecule of ATP for the cells to function. In the glycolysis stage, it can generate four molecules of ATP. Two of the energy molecules were used for cell function and only two were left for body strength. If the supply of oxygen was no not provided for the second stage of cellular respiration, then the cell will die eventually due to hypoxia.

Oh, its fairly simple, its merely a description of where Dao comes from and how it embodies, unfolds itself in the material world AND, (which is one and the same thing) in the human consiousness.

Thank you!

I see some Buddhist flavor in the translation. However, it didn't indicate where did Dao comes from...???

Interesting reminds me of the book Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life by Gerald Pollock. It is very possible, I've always wondered if cells were in fact liquid crystals, and Mae Wan ho's work seems to point to this. It would be interesting to see what happens if you do gene knock out of ATP synthetase in bacteria and see if it is still able to reproduce....I will have to research and see if it has already been done.

 

EDIT this is interesting: http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0471661791/cutting_edge/minimal_genomes/minimal_genomes.htm

 

"A full 95% of the genome is devoted to coding for proteins or RNA. This organism has genes which code for a full complement of ribosomal and transfer RNAs, together with a large set of enzymes for replication, transcription, and translation, including DNA repair enzymes. Surprisingly, however, N. equitans lacks almost all the genes for carbon metabolism such as the glycolytic pathway, citric acid cycle, and pentose phosphate pathway. It is also missing essentially all the elements required for the biosynthesis of lipids, amino acids, and nucleotides. While it has the genes for a very minimal ATP synthase, it is not at all clear how the organism could generate its own energy supply."

The organism could generate its own energy supply from the first stage of cellular respiration: glycolysis.

http://www.answers.com/topic/glycolysis

Ref: Please read IV. Anaerobic Respiration (Fermentation) from:

http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/N100/2k4ch7respirationnotes.html

you are getting close IMHO, but not quite,similarly to Ghidragon you guys still translate as if DDJ was written in a vacuum. it was not, it was written using a technical, well established language with (as is the case with all tech jargons common words having diff meaning) from everyday usage.

 

the first sentence is a contraction of

 

道可道者，非常道也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%8F%AF%E9%81%93%E8%80%85

 

meaning - 道underlying Great Dao 可that enables 道者 individual ways of conduct，is 非not 常 a commonplace 道 way of conduct也

 

all this technical usages can be attested by the texts from the link above.

How would you use your meaning to relate to the rest of the lines and come up with the theme of Chapter 1......???

what does that even mean? i dont understand your english.

 

 

sounds a bit naif to me.

ooops....

Sorry, I always tend to leave out the negative word "not" when I meant to say it.

I meant:

道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken about Tao,

非常道也: Then, they are NOT talking about the eternal Tao.

Anyway, the final meaning is:

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

Sorry, the classic text is just too difficult to be expressed in English.

you are getting close IMHO, but not quite,similarly to Ghidragon you guys still translate as if DDJ was written in a vacuum. it was not, it was written using a technical, well established language with (as is the case with all tech jargons common words having diff meaning) from everyday usage.

 

the first sentence is a contraction of

 

道可道者，非常道也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%8F%AF%E9%81%93%E8%80%85

 

meaning - 道underlying Great Dao 可that enables 道者 individual ways of conduct，is 非not 常 a commonplace 道 way of conduct也

 

all this technical usages can be attested by the texts from the link above.

How much do you understand classic text....???

道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken of Tao,

非常道也: Then, it is not the eternal Tao.

PS...

Please keep in mind, the Tao Te Ching is not about the ways of conduct but Confucius is.

Nothing is the best until it was cultivated to its perfection.

Well, there is a difference between translation and interpretation. It all depends on what the individual wants to do. One can translate then interpret with annotation or just go ahead to translate the direct meaning within context. Either way, there will be confusion and argument. To avoid confusion, I would like to translate the classic text as close as possible, so nothing gets lost. Then, I go from there with the interpretation and annotation.

Line 7 of Chapter 1

7. 此兩者同出而異名，

7. ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2,

The breakdown of line 7:

a. 此兩者(ci3 liang3 zhe3): these two

b. 同出(tong2 chu1): came from the same(origin)

c. 而異名(er2 yi4 ming2): but differ in name

Translation:

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name.

Annotation:

I was always wondering about what are "these two(此兩者) in line 7...???

If I look at it closely, then I realized they were referred 無(wu2) and 有(you3) to lines 3 and 4. Thus these two "that come from one origin but differ in name"

These three lines are self explanatory...

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name.

Indeed, the logic of line 7 flows along with lines 3 and 4.

Translation of lines 5 and 6 of Chapter 1

In lines 3 and 4, 無(wu2) and 有(you3) were treated as Nouns like Invisible and Visible respectively. However, in lines 5 and 6, 無(wu2) and 有(you3) were treated as adjectives.

5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。

Pinyin:

5. gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4;

6. chang2 you3, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3.

The breakdown of line 5:

a. 故(gu4): therefore; hence; thus

b. 常無(chang2 wu2): always none; implicating always invisible

c. 欲以觀(yu4 yi3 guan1): would observe

d. 其妙(qi2 miao4;): its subtlety; characteristic; quale

The breakdown of line 6:

a. 常有(chang2 you3): always have; always have been; implicating always visible.

b. 欲以觀(yu4 yi3 guan1): would observe

c. 其徼(qi2 jiao3): its boundary

The translation of lines 5 and 6:

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

Annotation:

What these two lines are saying was: Hence the Invisible(Tao) is always invisible, we can only feeling the presence of Tao by our senses. When the Visible(Tao) is always visible, we can see its limitations by observing its highest capability.

Lines 3 and 4, Chapter 1

3. 無,名天地之始。

4. 有,名萬物之母。

3. wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3;

4. you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3.

The key characters of these two line are 無(wu2) and 有(you3).

1. 無(wu2): none, nothing, implying something was invisible

2. 有(you3): have, exist, implying something exited which was visible.

3. 名(ming2): to name

4. 天地之始(tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3): the beginning of heaven and earth.

5. 萬物之母(wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3): the mother of all things.

By the definition of lines 1 and 2, the eternal Tao cannot be given a name because a name can be named is not eternal. Therefore, the implication was that Tao can be given more than one name. Hence, LaoTze gave two names for Tao at the two states of its appearance. Tao was named 無(wu2), Invisible, at the beginning of heaven and earth; and Tao was named 有(you3), Visible, as the mother of all things were created.

The proper translation for lines 3 and 4:

3. Invisible[無(wu2)] is at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible[有(you3)] is the mother of all things.

Let's put it into proper perspective:

3. Invisible was the name, given to Tao, at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name, given to Tao, as the mother of all things.

*************************************************************************

These two lines are commonly mistranslated due the punctuation of the comma was placed at the wrong place as shown below.

3. 無名,天地之始。

4. 有名,萬物之母。

The compound characters would be translated as:

a. 無名(wu2 ming2): no name; nameless

b. 有名(you3 ming2): have a name; with a name

c. 天地之始(tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3): the beginning of heaven and earth.

d. 萬物之母(wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3): the mother of all things.

The mistranslation:

3. The nameless at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. There is a name for the mother of all things.

Over here, "The nameless" may have an implication that Tao is the origin of heaven and earth. However, "There is a name" has no indication that Tao is the mother of all things.

sent him an email apologizing.

The Yin overcome the Yang.

The softness overcome the hardness.

That will soft he up.

Line 2 of Chapter 1

2. 名可名，非常名。

2. ming2 ke3 ming2, fei1 chang2 ming2.

a. 名(ming2): Name

b. 可名(ke3 ming2): able to name; nameable; can be named

c. 非(fei1): not

d. 常名(chang2 ming2): eternal name

Hence, the final translation for line 2 would be:

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

Annotation:

1. 道可道，非常道。

2. 名可名，非常名。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

In Chapter 1, lines 1 and 2, LaoTze was giving an implication that Tao is eternal because it cannot be described with one word or a single sentence. Since Tao is eternal, it cannot be given a name. Although a name was given to Tao, but Tao is still eternal.

Tao cannot be described in one word or a single sentence. Therefor, Tao has to be described separately. Hence, that is why there are so many chapters in the Tao Te Ching to describe Tao. Tao appeared in each chapter with a different identity. LoaTze has a paradoxical way of building up the different characteristics of Tao from Chapter to Chapter. Sometimes, the thoughts about Tao were referred back and forth between the related chapters.