ChiDragon
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Posts posted by ChiDragon
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Hehehe. That doesn't matter.
I still like what Steve said so I was able to construct "Less to do."
('None to do' wouldn't be valid because there are still things for me to do.)
It's OK....
I just want to keep the record straight. So it won't be misleading.
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I'm looking for the cause/reasoning for the intent.
The intent has to be initiated from the mind of an individual for whatever reason. e.g. Let's say that I don't like the line of your questioning. The reason that I am telling you this was intended to offend you. Regardless, you were offended or not, it was the intention that caused me for not being Wu Wei.
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What is at the root of violent action?
Be the TTC definition, any intention to cause harm to Nature or anybody(mentally or physically) was considered to be a violent action. The emphasis was placed on the intention rather than the action itself.
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Do you think it could be even further narrowed down to emptiness / non-attachement?
Wu Wei = emptiness?
The answer to your question is no, not by a Taoist philosophy anyway. "Emptiness" is more like a Buddhist term. By LaoTze's definition of Wu Wei, it has something to do with an nonviolent action.
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Can anyone tell me where this idea that Wu-Wei means to do nothing came from? I'm not boasting, but I've read the Tao Teh Ching for around twenty years now and it wasn't until I got on the internet that I heard that phrase. I still ascribe to the idea that Wu-Wei is about going with the flow, to use a hippy phrase, or as I prefer to explain it, not interfering, letting things take their natural course.
I think it can confuse some people on these boards (including me) to describe Wu-Wei as doing nothing, because then we get this idea that the sage pretty much sat down in a chair all day and just watched the world happen around them, when, at least in my opinion, that's not what they did at all. At least lets hope for the sake of the baby in the river that isn't true.
Any detailed explanation about why people believe it means to do nothing, would be greatly appreciated.
Aaron
Hi, all
It's about time someone ask this intelligent question...!!!
"Wu Wei" means "doing nothing and accomplish nothing". That is the direction translation from this compound characters 無為.
Again, by LaoTze's definition with his stand alone thinking and wisdom, Wu Wei was his patented term, so to speak. LaoTze had written the whole Tao Te Ching based on the concept of Wu Wei.
Wu Wei was his philosophy which include all these meanings:
1. Let Nature take its course.
2. Take no abusive action.
3. Do nothing to interrupt or cause harm to Nature.
Hence, his idea was always giving us the notion that he was more concern with the negative attributes than the positive.
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I read elsewhere it referred to qigong psychosis /kundalini syndrome and was to be avoided where possible during cultivation and treated when diagnosed.
Yes, -K-. This would have happened, most lightly, at a higher level of the Qigong practice, rather than at a lower level. However, there is one style called 自發功(zi fa gong). It could happen to anyone at a lower level if the practitioner doesn't know how the close it at the end. He may be ended up in the hospital. The western medical science doesn't know what kind of symptom that was and the practitioner will be treated as he/she was insane.
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Your wu-wei because you said so? Is that wu-wei to do?
Except I have never made any claim concerning my ability with the chinese language. But I'll make one: I really know nothing about it.
hehehe..........
There is no need to make any claims about your ability with the Chinese language. The reflection of the comments made by each individual will reveal his/her basic knowledge and personality. Even though you have claimed that you knew nothing about the Chinese language. You sure had me fooled. Based on your comments on some of your responses, I have to give you some credit for your knowledge on the Chinese language.
About your Wu Wei comment, I knew it was coming. However, I can only try to be Wu Wei because I am part of the interaction, here. Perhaps, Wu Wei is more suitable and applicable to more serious situations case by case, so to speak.
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We are going no where, aren't we....???
It is OK. Let's not talk about them.....
BTW Those are not my own interpretations. They are only my translations of the interpretations of the native knowledgeable scholars. You can take it or leave it. I'll be Wu Wei about it.
PS...
Let's say I felt the same way about your Chinese as you felt about my English.
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1. If I have a little bit of knowledge,
2. And walking on a big road,
3. I'm afraid that I might be going into a wrong direction.
4. The big road is leveled;
5. But the people, still, would like to take a small trail.
Annotation:
Lines 1 to 5 are carrying a metaphorically message.
The "I" in line one 1 was referred as a virtuous ruler. The "big road" was analogous to a "big country". Finally, "take a small trail" is analogous to "taken a shortcut".
The metaphor was:
If I knew how to run a big country with a little knowledge, I might not know how to handle it and gone the wrong way about it. The country may be in order, somehow, the officials may take some shortcuts and ruin the country. Lines 6 through 8 were describing the condition of the corrupted government. Lines 9 through 14 are describing the small trail that the official took. As a result, the government was robbing the people like bandits. Indeed, that was not the way it suppose to be.
6. The government is corrupted,
7. The farmlands are deserted,
8. The barns are empty.
9. The officials are wearing luxurious attires,
10. Carrying a sharpened sword by the waist,
11. Enjoying a gourmet dinner,
12. Possessed an excess of exquisite goods.
13. They are considered to be bandits.
14. This is not tao at all.
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IMO The spine gives you more support when it was in the arc formation.
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Translations can never be consistent. Of course, "道者" is not "Taoist" in the classic text because it is "道者" and "Taoist" is only the translation into the English. IT IS IN ENGLISH ONLY, PERIOD. Why are we kept talking, back and forth, about apples and oranges.
I don’t stick to just one text but usually review them all to arrive at my understanding;FYI: The native scholars had done exactly that and came up with the Received Version with consistency.
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Chapter 53 - The corrupted government.
1. If I have a little bit of knowledge,
2. Then walking on a big road,
3. I'm afraid that I might be going into a wrong direction.
4. The big road is leveled;
5. But the people, still, would like to take a small trail.
6. The government is corrupted,
7. The farmlands are deserted,
8. The barns are empty.
9. The officials are wearing luxurious attires,
10. Carrying a sharpened sword by the waist,
11. Enjoying a gourmet dinner,
12. Possessed an excess of exquisite goods.
13. They are considered to be bandits.
14. This is not tao at all.
1. 使我介然有知，
2. 行於大道，
3. 唯施是畏。
4. 大道甚夷，
5. 而人好徑。
6. 朝甚除，
7. 田甚蕪，
8. 倉甚虛。
9. 服文綵，
10.帶利劍，
11.厭飲食，
12.財貨有餘。
13.是謂盜夸。
14.非道也哉。
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dawei...
I do follow your twisting logic. Actually, the words used by someone was only an indication of how less one knows. Of course, that applies to me too. However, if one wish to follow what others says inconsistently but still willing to accepted them fanatically, go for it. I have no problem with that.
PS...
The Received Version of the Tao Te Ching is no secret. It just happens to be not reaching to you yet. I had posted the original here, all the time, to show some consistency. Somehow, someone is still using some outdated copies but not versions with tremendous errors as baseline. Most of the time, you are not addressing the real issue instead you are playing some kind of games yourself.
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Those who follow the principle of water are "Waterist".
If you get caught up in translating words like Lienshen... we get translations like this in english.
I am hoping you see the stupidity of this.
I would say it is a level of understanding. It is obvious that "Waterist" does not apply here. Sometimes, things do work one way but not the other. What you are saying here is "水者" as "Waterist" which makes no sense in the Chinese language. In the case with "道者" as "Taoist" is very appropriate.
I am no sinologist, let's say that I only speak and write the language for about 62 years. Fortunately, I have learned to type the characters on an English keyboard for 20 years. Furthermore, I had been studied the Tao Te Ching for about five to six years. My sources were strictly written in my native language. Thus, I did not have to deal with any mistranslation in English; but sometimes I learned some English words from the other scholars. I do admit there were some misinterpretation in my native source. However, I think I was stupid enough to sort them out.
I'm happy to discuss and resolve any issues with anyone as long the materials were presented logically and legitimately; but none of this "Waterist" stuff.
PS...
I had declared already that I am using a Received Version of the Tao Te Ching to share my translation here. I had also declared that I am only translating the lines are being presented. If someone wish to bring the different lines from other versions, it will not be suitable for the Received Version. If one character has been changed, the logic of the whole chapter must be scrutinized. Otherwise, we may be going circles and tried to force something to fit.
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道: Tao
者: -ist; -er
道 + 者 = Tao + ist = Taoist
道者: those who follow the principles of Tao.
Those who follow the principles of Tao which are Taoists.
有道者: Those who have the moral principles or just "principles" which are Taoists.
In ancient time or temporal, that is how "有道者" was used to express someone that is a Taoist in the Chinese language. Those who are not familiar with the language may not think so.
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Is it anachronistic to say "those who practiced to be Taoist"?
How would you translate this..???
古之善為道者.
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That is so very much better.
Two more comments though:
Line 11. The word "stern" is not compatible with the valley - the valley is the place of rest.
Line 14. They seem to be active as if they were restless.
Other than that I think you did very good here.
Thank you. I am glad to have you as my counterpart and catch my mistakes.
Sorry. I mistranslated line 11.
11.曠兮其若谷；
11. They seem to be as broad as a valley.
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Chapter 15 - The descriptions of the ancient Taoists
1. In the ancient times, those who practiced to be Taoists,
2. They were mysterious and esoteric.
3. They were abstruse and unfathomable.
4. It was because they were unfathomable,
5. Therefore, they were so difficult to be described.
6. They were suspicious seem like they were walking on thin ice.
7. They were hesitated seem like they were feared their neighbors.
8. They were cautious seem like they were guests.
9. They were affable seem like the ice is about to be melting.
10. They seem to be innocent like an uncarved woodblock.
11. They seem to be as broad as a valley.
12. They seem to be naive like murky water.
13. They seem to be quiet like deep sea.
14. They seem to be active as if they were restless.
15. Who can be calmed from motion then slow down to become cleared?
16. Who can become active from stillness and advanced progressively?
17. Those who kept these principles do not wish to be complacent.
18. It was because they were not being complacent,
19. Then, they can have some old ideas replaced with the new ones.
Edited:
Line 11 due to the mistranslation on the first attempt.
Line 14: Corrected grammar per Marblehead's suggestion.
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Chapter 15
1. 古之善為道者，
1. In the ancient times, those who were good to be Taoists,
2. 微妙玄通，
2. They were mysterious and esoteric,
3. 深不可識。
3. Abyss and incomprehensible.
4. 夫唯不可識，
4. Therefore, because it was difficult to comprehend,
(4. Because, only, they were incomprehensible,)
5. 故強為之容。
5. Then, it was difficult to describe them,
5. Thus, it was difficult to describe them as.
6. 豫兮若冬涉川；
6. Suspicious seems like walking on thin ice;
7. 猶兮若畏四鄰；
7. Hesitate Seems like in fear with the neighbors;
8. 儼兮其若客；
8. Cautious seems like a guest;
9. 渙兮若冰之將釋；
9. Affable seems like the ice is about to be melting;
10.敦兮其若樸；
10. Innocent seems like an uncarved woodblock;
11.曠兮其若谷；
11. Stern seems like a valley;
12.混兮其若濁；
12. Naive seems like murky water;
13.澹兮其若海；
13. Quiet seems like deep sea;
14.飂兮若無止。
14. Active seems like restless.
15.孰能濁以靜之徐清?
15. Who can be calmed in motion then slow down to become cleared?
16.孰能安以動之徐生?
16. Who can become active from stillness and advanced progressively?
17.保此道者不欲盈。
17. Those who kept these principles were not complacent.
18.夫唯不盈,
18. Therefore, only not being complacent,
19.故能蔽而新成。
19.Then, it can be replace the old with the new.
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Remember, LaoTze always use reverse negative logic. Please keep in mind!
When he said: "Abandon knowledge" he meant "Abandon negative knowledge".
Another word, "Abandon negative knowledge" means "abandon ignorance"
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Wu Wei: Let Nature take its course.
In the drowning baby scenario. Is that a natural thing for the baby to drown in the river...???
By doing nothing to save the baby, was that considered to be "let Nature take its course"...???
IMO To let the baby live is a natural course of Nature. How can we say that doing nothing to save the baby was considered to be Wu Wei...???
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Basically a fool wants to prove dominance to show he is better.
If you don't fight a fool, he is still a fool and you are not, so you walk away with whatever there was to gain out of it, ie. superiority, which you never lost nor gained.
That said, the fight is also prevented while walking away with what the fool wanted to get out of it.
Then, a fool is a fool after all.....
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My simplest definition of Wu Wei (and I believe the Guodian definition to be) is not interfering, allowing things to take their natural course. So the sage accomplishes much by doing nothing, because he has not interfered and hence nature has done it of it's own accord.
In that light, doing nothing isn't necessarily Wu Wei, if doing nothing prevents the natural course from occurring. There was a debate once in another forum where someone asked if allowing a baby to drown in a river was Wu Wei. Some believed the Sage would allow the baby to drown, others believed he wouldn't. The fact of the matter is it's not as simple as that. The Sage understands his environment and his own place within that environment, hence he is not separate from the world, but a part of it. As a result he has a role to play within that environment, but in his ability to understand his place, he can interact with that environment in a way that does not interfere with it.
The Sage waits for the fruit to ripen, the water to become still, and his home to present itself. In such a way he does not take anything that is not given or disturb anything that does not need to be disturbed.
Aaron
WU WEI is not DOING NOTHING.
The TTC definition of Wu Wei is:
Do nothing to cause harm or interference was considered to be Wu Wei.
BTW There is no such thing as "Guodian definition of Wu Wei". Wu Wei has only one definition, the LaoTze definition. There is no need to create any more confusion than what it is now.
What is Wu Wei...?
in General Discussion
Posted
I believe that your question was "what caused the violent action?" Is compassionate action a violent action...???