ChiDragon

11 hours ago, Fracas said:

Hi to all

In my spare time I practice tai chi and qi gong.
Hopefully I will find interesting opinions and topics about Tao here.

Gregory Patterson

Welcome! Please come to discuss about the mysterious Tao.

1 hour ago, dwai said:

We can discuss fajin further after you demonstrate fajin with a live partner.

 
I wouldn't think this the way to end a valuable discussion. The ancient masters are always have humble talks about their knowledge before they going into the troublesome moves to prove their point.

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I know many people who have practiced for 40-50 years but still can't do it. They can talk up a storm about it sounding like grandmasters, though. As I mentioned earlier,  Fajin is just the tip of the iceberg - so many different ways jin can be expressed (floating, sinking, heavy, light, etc.). There is the ability to transform (hua) and stick (Na). The only way to know if you can do it, is by working with other live humans. A good practitioner can gauge your skill by touching your hands. Do you have peng? Are you song? Do you have ting? All these things are required before you can Fajin. 
 

PS: Fajin can be done in one of 3 ways. long power, short power or cold power. Mostly for practice and demos we use long power.  Long power is a good gauge to see if the practitioner has the ability to issue Jin without risking their practice partner. I’d recommend using this for demos. 

Many people who have practiced for 40-50 years but still can't do it. It was because they did not incorporate the breathing into consideration. Okay, by the line of your questioning,  you may assume that I know nothing about push-hand. However, I know enough to know how much you knew with all the basics. It takes one to know one.

The words in bold are only the requirements help to know when to Fajin with a partner. However, if the body was conditioned from practice and done properly/correctly, one can be standing alone still able to Fajin without a partner. No?

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Based on the volume of information you seem to possess, I was under the impression that you teach as well. Is that not true?

 

If not, do you have (or have you ever had) regular practice partners with whom you can explore and experiment with your art?

 

If that is not valid either, would it be safe to say that you haven't actually applied these theories and empirically verified their efficacy with other people in at least a push-hands setting? How, then, can you be so sure about them?

 

My teachers have always insisted that the most important thing about learning the IMA is having practice partners who can give you honest and sincere feedback (and vice versa). The forms require solo practice but are only one part of the puzzle (in a figure of speaking). An entire set of two-person practices is needed to validate and refine our skills. 

Yes, I am possessed with Taiji. In order to master the art, one must dedicate all the time and effort into it. I am also a volunteer teaching Taiji at a Chinese community service center. I teach two hours there on every Tuesday. One hour for the practice of the 24 form and one hour of Taiji sword. Taiji can do wonders to improve one's health. Showing my ability was to encourage them to practice with enthusiasm. Sometimes, I do demonstrate Fajin introducing what Taiji can do to improve someone's health.

There are not many people I can practice with in my area. Sometimes, I go to visit some Taiji Tournaments to talk and on hand practice push-hand with some participants to enhance my knowledge. As far as solo as concern, I had come up with the idea using a punching bag to do push-hand.

I am getting the impression that people are insisted to have a teacher to learn from. That is very true. However, a teacher can only help one to get started. As a beginner, after learning the forms, it is strictly to practice on once own diligently. At the beginning level, the student should not expect to learn more but the basics. In time, student shall notice that there are some physically changes in the body. That would be an indication of health improvement. There are some biological change inside the body that people are not aware of and they don't care. 
 

Learning the art cannot strictly rely on the teacher alone. One had to do some investigation on one's own. To enhance one's wisdom. After mastering to art, a master may give advice rather than asking for advice. Unless, one can learn from another person with more knowledge. There was an old saying "know yourself know others." In other words, one with the desirable knowledge by listening to the words that someone uses will know how much the other knows.  Same thing with any practice, a master will know the ability of one or another by observation.

Now, back to the Fajin question: If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin? 

Normally, a person do not Fajin unless it was in danger. A quick reflex is to Fajin by a muscle action with deep inhalation, sinking chi to the LDT. At that moment, that person is at the strongest body condition. The coordination of movement and breathing takes place. There won't be a shortage of breath. Beside, if one had mastered in breathing, one may regulate one's breath in any way. To test one ability in breathing is by how long a person can hold the breath before suffocation. As a matter of fact, yesterday, I had demonstrated by holding my breath for 45 seconds before suffocation in my class.

The reason I had the sabre demo was to show the ability in breathing. Otherwise, the demo wouldn't have lasted for 6 minutes. However, it seems I didn't sense the old saying, here, "know yourself know others".

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Why don’t you show us by demoing fajin on a live person? 🤣

I always wanted to try it on my wife, but she won't let me. She was afraid that I might hurt her. 💔

@Cobie

Since you know how to Fajin, please tell us when is the best time to do that!

On 9/4/2024 at 1:19 PM, dwai said:

If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin? 

This was never got out of my mind. If one who knew bout Fajin, one wouldn't have had asked such question. I'll give you a chance to think about it. I will get to the point when I have a chance to go to my computer.

13 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm interested if people have problems with Reiki,is there much on this forum about it

靈氣 is the term that Japanese used for the medical qigong which is equivalent the Chinese term 醫療氣功(medical qigong).

I don't know where people getting the idea that it has problems.

BTW Thank you for the kind words!

5 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Are you sure Lingqi is Reiki. Also what sort of problems are certain with Reiki? If I can ask you. 

The characters are the same 靈氣, but it has a different meaning completely between the Chinese and Japanese culture.

11 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

I believe that this show your level of understanding of the subject. 

You most likely think qigong =neidan, and that it is all about breathing. 

Yes, breath, breathe, breathing, sink breath to the dantian. Try it, it might work for everyone. I don’t know why people are getting all kinds of definitions of neidan but the right one.

3 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Supposedly, jing to qi to shen is going with the flow. 

 

Neidan is about reversal and inversion, going against the flow. 

Oh, a new invention of Neidan. It's wonderfully, so, you are saying that the post-neidan is the reversal of the pre-neidan.

Had anyone ever  heard of Jing, chi, and shen? It is all about neidan，内丹.

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

and he bounce them either with fajin or by redirecting (huajin 化勁.)) 

Sorry, the video is all in Chinese, let me clarify what is the objective of the video. Perhaps you might want to reconsider on original thought.

It is not a push-hand competition, rather it is a push-push situation. The idea is to test the strength of a Taiji  master. The test was done in three rounds. Each round is one minute. After three rounds, if Chen still inside the Taiji circle wins.

In the competition, both opponents are pushing each other. It was all yang-yang forces without any yin-yang effect. If it was push-hand, Chen would have guided the incoming force to the right hand side. In the same token, Chen could have had pulled forward to step out of the circle by his opponent. Hence, there was no huajin was involved.

Here is my PPJ.

Where does all Chen's power coming from? The power was coming from Fajin. The power of Jin that was acquired from the practice of Taiji. However, one must be aware that Jin was not developed by the practice Taiji. Taiji will only condition the body to have the ability to generate the energy to Fajin. To initiate Fajin is by the contraction of the muscles. As soon the muscles are relaxed, Fajin is deactivated immediately. In order to maintain continuous Fajin, Chi, 氣, must sink to the lower dantian at all time by the abdominal breathing method.
 

How does Fajin to generate it power, I think I had said enough in the few posts above. Some people thought that was all speculations. So, let it be, science will reveal its truth. Peace!

19 hours ago, Nintendao said:

That not Sending, that Rooting.

Assuming that everyone knew what rooting is all about, let's evaluate what do you mean by "not sending, that rooting" Hopefully it is not an insult to Master Chen Xiaowang.

The surface of Taiji circle is smooth and slippery. Just just fighting by the weight of his opponent, alone, without a good  foundation of rooting, Master Chen wouldn't even have a chance to stay inside the circle. If you have noticed that Chen's right leg was never moved, that is the indication of good foundation of rooting which gives him leverage and balance to stay put. He applied Fajin throughout the whole body. He is not just fighting against the weight of the opponent, but also the pushing force. It is obvious that Chen weights lighter than his opponent. Hence,  Chen has to use more power to overcome the difference in weight and the pushing force.

So, we can look at it mathematically:
Jin = the force Chen has to generate
W1 = the weight of the opponent
W2 = the weight of Chen
F1 = the pushing force of the opponent.

Jin = (W1 - W2) + F1 is how much power that Chen has to be generated to overcome the force against him to stay inside the circle.

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

All this terminology - xing, Ming and so on don’t really appear in the ML system

性命雙修 , the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming is a Taoist practice. The esoteric terms of Xing and Ming stands for mind and body, respectively. Xing is the cultivation of the mind and Ming is the cultivation of the body. It is a Taoist practice to become a better person or a perfect man(真人) by doing the dual cultivation at the same time.

PS
Now, I got this out of the way. I hope we'll be back on to the main course of the OP. Thank you.

17 hours ago, dwai said:

The details around this are murky, but I suspect that Cheng Man Ching and Master Liao probably shared a teacher (at some point in time). ML always claims that CMC was a friend and that he didn't study under him.

 

FYI Cheng Man Ching, 鄭曼青, was a herbalist. I'd read his autobiography. He have a special encounter with the Yang family. As I recall, He cured an ill for the mother of a Yang Taiji master. The Taiji master was also a herbalist, he was afraid to give the herbal medicine to his mother. It is because that is his mother and he just become uncertain that he might prescribed the wrong medicine. However, CMC over heard that and knew the herbal medicine is ok to use for his mother. So, CMC gave the same recipe to cure the master's mother.

At first, the Yang Taiji master did not want to teach CMC Taiji because it is a traditional family secret. Since CMC cured his mother, then the Yang Master taught the Yang style family Taiji to him.

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

A weight lifter can certainly hold a weight in place or send it away. 

 

Both are likely to have good blood circulation in the muscles, and functional mitochondria. 

 

From that, the main difference between them should be somewhere else in the system. 

In the Chen Xiaowang video, the demo was to have Chen stays within the Taiji circle while the weightlifter is pushing him. The weightlifter is pushing Chen by Fali(發力). However, if Chen has not practiced Taiji, he would be just using Fali(發力) to defend himself. Thus he would have had been pushed out the circle in no time. Chen is a master of the Chen style Taiji. He had used his Fajin(發勁) ability. Indeed, he stayed in the circle during the whole time of the competition. He almost went out of the circle though.

There is a difference in blood circulation. The weightlifter is required to hold up the weight, for some time, by muscle contraction. It will cause vascular constriction until the weight was dropped. However, a Taiji practitioner always have the muscles relaxed. Vascular constriction takes place only during Fajin. During Taiji practice, the contraction and relaxation of the muscles will have a much better the blood circulation. It is because during muscle relaxation, the blood goes into the artery from the heart. During the muscle contraction, the vascular constriction of the vein helps to squeeze the blood return to the heart.

Those are the difference between the two systems.
 

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

How does the muscles differ between a weight lifter and a taiji practitioner?  

Introduction to muscle conditions with mitochondrial dysfunction.

The growth of interest in mitochondrial research over the last decade is related to the knowledge that mitochondrial content and function exhibit plasticity in response to changes in metabolic energy demand. Exercise is a stimulus that is well known to induce increases in mitochondrial content within skeletal muscle. However, decrements in mitochondrial content and function can also take place, forcing muscle to derive a greater fraction of its energy from glycolysis during the stress of energy demands. Such decreases in mitochondria are readily apparent in muscle fibers subject to chronic disuse, providing evidence that muscle activity is critical to maintenance of a normal, healthy mitochondrial pool. 

The above explanation shows the effect of exercise between Taiji and weightlifting on the mitochondrial density.
 

Ref: https://journals.lww.com/acsm-essr/Fulltext/2021/04000/Exercise_Is_Muscle_Mitochondrial_Medicine.1.asp

7 hours ago, Nintendao said:

An olympic level weight lifter has a lot if muscle strength. 

 

Any fajin in that? 

No, there is no fajin in that. Weightlifter only use the muscles to fali, 發力, just to support the weight.

Taji practitioner can use the muscle to Fajin to hold something in place or send something away. The magnitude of force is strictly in control of the practitioner. The amount of force determines how far does the object is to be sent away.

59 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

Anyway I though this might be useful: 

Quote

I thank you, my man. I think we are in resonance in cell respiration and ATP energy. I wish practitionrers should pay more attention to modern science to understand what is taken place inside the body biologically and physiologically. It would be definitely help to appreciate the health benefits from the practice. It don't matter what system that is, one cannot avoid the coordination of movement and breathing. Abdominal breathing that is.

52 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

That not Sending, that Rooting. No less impressive though!

I bet Dwai knows a way to move him

I wouldn't challenge Chen Xiaowang if I were you. Nor anyone else! Please don't get Dwai into trouble.

1 hour ago, dwai said:

But that’s basically a cop-out in my humble opinion.

I am glad you said that. Somebody else might take it for granted but I have my reservation on it. It sounds like all Chinese talks I heard in my life. I know if I ask any Chinese teacher, one will snow me with anything. I won't take it for granted but verify it with modern science.

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

, it is energy stored within the bone marrow

As far as I know, no energy can be stored as specified by physics. The energy in the mitochondria only generated in few seconds by the contraction of the muscle. As soon the muscles relaxed, ATP energy will be gone. It will generated again on the next contraction.