ChiDragon

15 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

I studied taijiquan with CP Ong in the Washington DC area for a time.

CP is a dedicated practitioner and disciple of Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei and a great guy.

His background is in mathematics and he is committed to examining the mechanics of taiji techniques and effects.

Check out this link with his publications, you may find some of them interesting: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cp-Ong-2

 

Thank you doc benway.
Based on what you have given is just the translation for the traditional Chinese explanation.

I believe that the paper of CP Ong wrote is just the translation of the traditional explanation. I wish he did mention something about the mitochondria. That would have a more scientific value in the explanation of Taijiquan.

I do follow Chen Xiaowang, he is a master of the Chen style Taiji. I have great respect for him. However, when comes to the explanation about Taiji, he was not quite scientifically informative. 

On the expression about neijin, I cannot agree that muscle actions + Qi is Neijin. It is because like almost everybody else, chi was just brought out from nowhere to make a vague justification. We all know our muscles have energy by the cell respiration theory as I had indicated.  

Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
From this expression, I have no doubt, in my mind, that the energy was generated within the muscle itself.

Another thing is that the Chen style Taiji is different from the Yang style. I have noticed that the Chen style seems that every other move, the muscles were contracted with a little twist. Thus that gives me the indication of fajin. I don't see other styles were doing that.

Thank you very much!

 

Ref: From CP Ong's paper

Quote

For a quick answer of neijin, we can paraphrase Chen Xiaowang’s explanation in an equation:

Neijin = Muscle actions + Qi

In explaining neijin, Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang says that the strength of Qi alone is not great, and the strength of muscle force without Qi is crude and inflexible.

"The answer is encouraging as it indicates that one is building a store of neijin in the very practice of Taijiquan: The practice nurtures Qi and doing the movements entails muscle actions. For that matter, all oriental martial arts train to develop Qi"

 

22 hours ago, dwai said:

Being a data engineer by profession, I am interested. Very interested.

I am retired electrical/electronic engineer. At least, we have something in common. I hope we can iron out the concept of Taiji on common ground scientifically.

Let's be demystified to make it simple to comprehend. Then, we can cite some known facts to support it later.

As far as I know, after the diligent practice of Taji, my muscle did not change shape or any form as in weightlifting. When I fajin my muscles have a tremendous power with abdominal breathing. After exhalation, my muscle are so relaxed as normal like nothing has happened. Muscle contraction requires energy and the energy is acquired and generated from mitochondria. At slow to moderate speed of exercise, the muscle will increase the number of mitochondria. As result, that will increase the ability for the muscle to fajin. Jin is nothing something that can be measured by some means. The Taiji practitioners can only demonstrate fajin to show that Jin is existed in the body. Jin had never defined of what it is. Jin can be only described as an explosive force exerted by a Taiji practitioner. The force is no longer exist when body is at rest. So far, we have just talked about Jin but nothing about fajin yet.

The explosive force can be explained by the muscle contraction theory and cell respiration. Fajin requires all the muscles to be contracted for maximum power exertion. All parts of the body may do partial fajin. However, to be most effective, the driving factor is all on the waist to support a full execution of fajin. The muscle must be relaxed after each exertion to conserve energy. It only takes one second to exert the explosive force.

There is an old Taiji saying. Stand still like a mountain and move swiftly like an ocean wave. For example, when Bruce strikes, he was so fast. The opponent doesn't even know where the strike was coming from. Bruce Lee's idea was to anticipate the enemy before one strikes.

 

On 7/10/2024 at 3:29 AM, adept said:

Now and then though, I kept coming across statements which challenged my views. These statements weren't frequent. Just now and again I'd see them mentioned. They were "Zen is not Buddhism" and "Zen is not meditation". Searching out these topics wasn't fruitful but I kept the quotes in the back of my mind for future reference.

FYI 禪(Zen) is a Budahhsm practice. Zen is not meditation, but Budahhism zazen is to practice Zen. Zen, mostly, is to find a peace of mind and seek for tranquality in life.

19 hours ago, dwai said:

- Did you take muscle biopsies?

- Did you do double-blind studies?

- Do you have the statistical data that demonstrates your hypothesis?

 

Okay, maybe I'm jumping ahead here - please take your time and elaborate your entire theory. But then please go into great detail to support it with scientific data. Being a data engineer by profession, I am interested. Very interested.  

No, I don't think it was that serious to take muscle biopsies to prove my point.
No, I did not do double-blind studies. I do not have such need for nor I am capable of doing so.
I do not have the statistical data that demonstrates my hypothesis.

My physical abilities is the best proof of the result from Taiji practice.  I can only use the available scientific theories to support my hypothesis. I studied about the contractual effects of the muscle in lieu with cell respiration. I have discovered that there is an action potential is required for muscle contraction.  Muscle contracts will activate the cell respiration to obtain its energy. That was why I went into deep study in muscle contraction and cell respiration. Indeed, it helped me to support my hypothesis to prove how Taiji works.
 

On your own time, perhaps you might want to look ahead into the effect of muscle contraction and cell respiration before my next few posts.

17 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The next post will explain how to breathe more oxygen and use it more efficiently.

In Taiji practice, the practitioner are doing the movements and breathing slowly. It is because a beginner is not used to have the new stress of being applied to muscles. One thing about moving the muscles too fast. All the energy in the body with be dissipated in no time. The muscles will become fatigue due to hypoxia. Since hypoxia is the dominant factor causing the muscles to fatigue, this condition could be prevented by providing ample of oxygen from breathing.

The performance of Taji can be prevented, both, from the muscle fatigue and hypoxia. The slow movements will prevent the muscle from over stress and the breathing will prevent hypoxia. It is, mainly, the slow and deep breathing preventing the muscles from fatigue. Under the condition of hypoxia, the glucose become lactic acid or lactate that would cause muscle pain and fatigue. The reason to breathe slowly is to retain the oxygen in the lung longer. That will allow more time for the red blood cells to collect the oxygen molecules and distribute to all the cells. The mitochondria will have ample of oxygen to manufacture the ATP energy for he body needs.

The slow Taiji breathing will allow the lung to have its full capacity to hold oxygen. The slowness in breathing will retain the oxygen much longer in the lung before exhalation. If exhale too fast, then the unused oxygen will exhaled also and wasted. Hence, the oxygen will continuously helping to generate the energy in supporting the muscle movements. The coordination of the breathing and movements have become a rule for the Taiji practitioners. That is having "the breathing coordinates with the movement and the movement coordinates with breathing."

It should be noted that when the lung is in its full capacity to hold the breath, the diaphragm is concave downward causing the  abdomen to expand fully. Under this condition, the martial arts practitioners described and known it as 氣沉丹田 (breath sunk to the dantien) aka sink chi to the dantien. 氣 means, here, is breath not energy. It was obvious when a deep breath was taken, the abdomen is expanded outward. Thus it can, only, be said that the breath is sunk to the dantien rather than energy.

14 hours ago, dwai said:

So, in your opinion, abdominal breathing will automatically sink qi to the dantien?

 

Yes,  that was where the original definition come from. When breathing with the abdomen fully expanded, it was considered to be that chi is sunk to the dantien. Somehow, the definition maybe misunderstood, misused, mistranslated or lost in the translation somewhere along the line. BTW it was not my opinion.
 

The reason for the above is how people interpret the term chi(氣). Unfortunately, chi can be translated as gas, air, breath, breathing, or energy. In the case of abdominal breathing，"sink chi to the dantien", should be read or interpreted as "sink the breath to the dantien." That would become very clear breathing was to capture the oxygen from the air for cell respiration.

21 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Scenario #4 Abdominal breathing,
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
 

Using the formula, it makes easier to explain relationship between the movement and breathing in Taiji. It will lead to the understand of Jin.

Let's starts with the famous quote, in martial arts, "氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian."
The first thing in Taji is to raise both hands and bend the legs. At this instant, the muscles start using the initial amount of oxygen in the body. As soon the oxygen runs out, it will demand for more. In order to prevent hypoxia, it is wise the take a breath slowly along with the first movement. Then, exhale slowly in coordinated with the following move. The breathing procedure should be continuous throughout the practice.

The right hand side of the formula tells us is like this. The energy will start to dissipate as soon as the hands raise and the legs bend. In order, to prevent hypoxia, the breathing will bring in the oxygen. So, there won't be shortage of oxygen supply for the continuous practice.

With ample of oxygen brings in, the cell respiration will manufacture the ATP energy continuously. It will keep the body movements flow without hesitation. Hence, as long as the provision of oxygen is there, the muscles won't get into fatigue at anytime. In other words, if the breathing stops, then, the movement stops. If the breathing continuous, then, the movement continuous.

The next post will explain how to breathe more oxygen and use it more efficiently.

PS The oxygen, on the left hand side of the formula, indicates that the various amount can be obtained is determined by the breathing method.

Scenario #3 Good breathing habit.
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
 

Under Scenario #3
A person breathes well with the breath goes down deep to the chest. There is a possibility that the capacity are filled at least 70 to 80% of air. It will keep the body function well and healthy. The person only get sick once awhile but recovered very quickly.

Scenario #4 Abdominal breathing,
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
There are lots of different names for abdominal breathing. Whatever people want to call it, it's always comes down to the famous final saying of "氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian."

Under Scenario #4, the capacity of the lung is completely filled with air. That implies there are ample supply of oxygen for the body cells to be utilized to generate energy.
 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)

Let's under the formula with different scenarios.

Scenario #1 Breath or death!
Under Scenario #1, the formula with look like this:
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
The lack of oxygen or food, the body will die soon or later.

Scenario #2 Normal breathing, it is different from each individual.
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)

Assuming a person eats well but breathing poorly, the limited amount of oxygen will be just enough to keep the body barely alive. Under this scenario, the person would have lots of chronic diseases.

Note: Breathing poorly means that the breath did not even go deep enough to the chest. The capasity of the lung has never been filled fully with air.

Cellular respiration or cell respiration is a very important theory in supporting the understanding why Taji works. The practitioner of Taiji believes that: "The movement coordinates with the breathing and the breathing coordinates with the movement." This saying falls  exactly into the cell respiration theory.

Let's look into the basic raw formula for cell respiration:
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)

Oxygen is from breathing, and glucose is from the foods that we eat.
Cell respiration use the oxygen to decompose the glucose and yielded two waste products of carbon dioxide and water. It, also, produce two useful things are heat to keep our body warm at a constant temperature and the energy for the body to function to live a normal life.

If a person sits, then, cell respiration will just keep a constant temperature and energy to maintain the body function at rest state.
However, when the muscle contracts, it generates more heat and energy from oxygen. At some point, the oxygen will be depleted due to the dissipation of heat and energy. Eventually, the cells need more oxygen to continue with the whole process. The source of oxygen is only by breathing the oxygen in the air. For some people, with breathing problems, just by normal breathing alone is not enough to provide the high demand of oxygen. However, in Taiji, the coordination of slow movement and deep breathing is perfect to fulfill the requirement for the high demand of oxygen in the process.

In the next post, I will have a breakdown to show more about how cell respiration in relation to Taiji.

2 hours ago, dwai said:

But other martial systems (non-taiji) have might other definitions of Jin, and what you’re saying might be applicable to those. 

As far as I know, the other systems do not use the term Jin(勁) as Taiji does. Before I go into any argument, I would like spend the time to finish my theory first. I like to use a more scientific approach to convince myself what Taiji is all about.

So far I have not finish the explanation about Jin. From the Chinese traditional expression about Jin, I only grasp it is the immense power or explosive force acquired from the diligent practice of Taiji. Since I have reached the stage in acquired Jin in my body. I would like to understand it with my own thoughts by using modern scientific term to avoid any ambiguity. In my mind, it is very clear that the energy supporting my legs to hold up my body is definitely from the mitochondria. The explosive force can be generated is due the increased number of mitochondria, in the body cells, resulted from the practice of Taiji. Indeed, the mitochondria use the oxygen to decompose the glucose to make ATP to release the energy in the muscle cells. The process that release the energy is called cell respiration.

56 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

What if the information in the book is incorrect and harmful?

The reader should take the consequences and make the final judgment. Then, one should continue going to seek whatever is correct or right.

4 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Isn't there a logical fallacy in your theory? By your logic, the weightlifter should have greater mitochondrial density and jin. Even if we consider the slow to moderate speed part, strength training is usually done at slow speeds for the best effect. 

I had investigated and verified that weightlifting doesn't have the same effect as in Taiji practice. It was because the weight was applied to the muscles will consume all of the muscle energy.

PS I should have pointed out that, in Taiji, the muscles are required to be relaxed. The energy dissipated are very low and there are plenty of energy left for the muscle to consume. In weightlifting, the muscles are tightened which dissipate lots energy by depleting all the oxygen from breathing. When under the condition of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) the mitochondria can no longer convert the glucose to energy. The glucose become lactate. Lactate will cause muscle pain and fatigue. Hence, there are no more energy left for the muscle cells to reproduce more mitochondria.

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power?

Let's start with a regular person with no Taiji practice. The person just has the regular muscle strength. One might ask, where and how the energy was  produce in the muscles? Well, the energy was released by the tiny cells called mitochondria resided inside the muscles cells. However, the more mitochondria in the muscle cells, the more energy that can be produced.

Before looking into how the energy was produced. Let's investigate how to increase the number of mitochondria in the muscle cells. The number of mitochondria in the body cells can be reproduced by exercising the muscles. The exercise on the muscles can be done constantly with a slight contraction.

If the the body sees that a particular muscle was more active than normal, then, it increase the numbers of mitochondria in the muscle cells. Since the quantity of  mitochondria has been increased, the more energy that can be released by the muscles. Hence, the immense muscle strength may be referred as Jin. In conclusion, Taji fits the requirement of the exercise. It is because Taji was done from slow to modest speed. However, it would have no effect if it was done beyond the modest speed.

I hope that make sense.

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

Okay, let's hear your explanation for fajin now. I've shared a lot from my perspective. What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power? Do their muscles become tremendously strong? Is that what you think is jin? Just really strong muscles?

Thank you very much! I am glad that you are interested. So, I finally have someone to talk to and get this out of my chest for a long time.

Okay! You are throwing so many question to me all at once.  I can only address them one post at a time to avoid any misleading.
1. What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power?
2. Do their muscles become tremendously strong?
3. Is that what you think is jin?
4. Just really strong muscles?

For now, I can answer questions 2 and 4 and get it out the way first. However, questions 1 and 3 require lots of explanation and has to be done with the help of some scientific knowledge. We must investigate what was taken place in the muscle during contraction.

No, my muscles are not so strong. However, it becomes strong with a tremendous power, only and only, when I fajin. It is by the execution of fajin, at that instant, gives me the tremendous power to perform a difficult task. The key factor has to do with abdominal breathing. You will see what I meant in the next few posts!

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

So if you don’t understand it or have not experienced it, it is fictional?  
what I wrote is directly from my own experiences - with my teacher, my kungfu brothers. You seem to be extrapolating what I wrote with your own fictional ideas from your childhood. 

Sorry, that was not intentional to have it came out that way. I will come to my own explanation with my own experience, as I have indicated in the above post, in a more scientific approach.
 

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is excellent. If your muscle strength has increased you should be able to lift heavy weights etc? 

Yes, let's say I could lift a little more than I could before the practice of Taiji. However, there is a limitation to everything.

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes of course proper breathing is very important - but at a certain point how one is breathing becomes irrelevant in Taiji fajin. And by breathing I mean specific inhalation and exhalation associated with the expression of Jin. If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin? 

Okay, we have a big discrepancy on the idea about breathing. It seems our idea is completely opposite on this one. We can only exchange idea about breathing with our own experiences and understanding.

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Like just lifting it one time or you can pick it up and walk around with it for several minutes? 

I took it from my car that was parked on the street, went through the driveway, living room, then placed it in the kitchen.

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Very interesting. How much percentage of your body weight can you lift?

Noramlly, a person can handle half of the body weight with no problem. I am not a very big man but short. I weight 123 pounds. However, I can handle a bag of 100 pound rice. 

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

By your explanation, a neigong person should be able to lift heavy weights  just like the waigong person if they are developing muscular strength (though by different means). 

That is exactly what I meant.
That is what was happening to me in my case.

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think you’re missing the point I’m making. If a “waigong” develops their muscular strength for a different effect than a “neigong” person, are they training different muscles or the same muscles?
 

The thing about neigong is the practice does not change the shape of the muscle as oppose to waigong. Waigong tends to shorten the muscles and change the shape of the muscles. Besides, weightlifting makes a male person impotent. 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Ok, here is where it gets interesting. Breathing is important of course. But there are a few more steps involved (intermediate level) -

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

P.S, as one starts the advanced level work, the breath needs to be let go of. Once the 8 energies and 5 directions are grasped, the coordination of the breath actually gets in the way. The breath was only a tool to get the energy - aka qi (that flowing sensation felt in the intermediate level) to integrate with the mind (yi). Once the two are properly connected, the breath coordination can be dropped. 

I read you. First of all, please accept my apology, in case, my foregoing comments might be causing a little discomfort to you. 

I've gathered that the explanation here is rather traditional and fictional. I had read some of the ideas from the martial arts fictional novels throughout my life. Most kids in Hong Kong, at the time I was a kid also, believed the contents in those stories. One day, I heard it on the news, a boy jumped off the building from the second floor. He believed that he can flight like the people in the movies make from those novels.

From kid to adulthood, I was still skeptical about those fictional stories. After college, I become an engineer with a job sitting in the office eight hours a day. I felt that there was a need for me to do some exercises. A colleague introduced me to his Taiji class. So, I practiced day by day. I feel that my body and muscle strength had increased tremendously and my breathing was deep. When I was a teenage, my breath was shallow and weak. I cannot even finish one sentence without taken another breath. Can't even sing a song if I wanted to. After years of Taji practice, I can use my diaphragm to sing like a champ.

To make the story short. Since my muscle strength was increased tremendously, I started wondering what was happening inside my body from the practice of Taiji. Surprisingly, I have discovered breathing is the key factor that had changed my physical body biologically. Fortunately, it can be explained with modern science that I would like to share with everyone.
 

56 minutes ago, dwai said:

So, a weightlifter who can lift 500 lbs is a neigong expert?

No, weightlifer is not a neigong expert but a waigong(外功) expert. 

Waigong(外功) is an external practice. It is becouse the practitioner uses external instrument to train the muscles. Therefore, it was not considered as neigong. Neigong practice, initially, doesn't use any external instrument to begin with.

3 hours ago, dwai said:

So in other words, muscular strength is internal and it comes from neigong? 

Yes, to be exact, the internal muscular strength was resulted from the practice of neigong. Be definition, anything that has an internal effect enhancing the strength of the body is considered neigong, 內功.

If a practitioner can demonstrate something out of the ordinary with tremendous power, it can be said that the practitioner has lots of neigong. Also, one could say that the neigong of the practitioner is tremendous.

Jin(勁) was acquired from practicing Taiji, hence, Taiji is considered as a form of neigong.

1 hour ago, dwai said:

This is a beginner-level skill and is not Jin.

Yes, it was understood that is how to practice taiji for beginners. However, as it was practiced progressively for a long time and done properly, the breathing will kick in. At higher level, the taiji practitioner should be able to perform having the breath coordinates with the movement and the movement coordinates with the breathing. Without realising, the Jin is automatically developed in the muscles. Hence, nobody is aware that was what took place inside the body.