on the path

I think the way is virtue is doing my blood pressure in, whats he on?!!!

Hi twiv, Why are you acting like a lun yong? Do you not posses any virtue, or is it something your trying to cultivate? If it is, you are not doing very well!! Still doing the puerile assumption bit. It does not become you! Because you seem to be like a dog with a rabbit and don't appear to have any grace, I'm not interested in your opinion thanks all the same!

I think a subject about immortals would stir up a few perspectives and be most interesting to read!!!!

I think one has to define what jing means to see whether we are talking about the same thing. I think not all TCM is correct, a lot of it is just guesswork with theory and it is not proven in western tests. I don't take this as a basis to decide whether anything is right or not just because a book or a person has told me and I have practiced TCM!! A book may say all sorts of things whether they are right is a different matter. That's why there are so many different forms and points of acupuncture, even though one might think that there must be only one set of meridians and points??? It cannot be proven in any case! There is a basis why jing is in the body from this we can understand it and how it manifest and affects us in our daily lives. The important thing I feel here is that jing influences qi and qi development, that's why it is important. If one understands the source then one can see that I am right, if one follows blindly what someone else theories-es, then you will follow this. I maintain female jing is essentially inherited and is little affected by menstruation or by giving birth to children. Although qi can be affected by both that is I feel the difference. Jing is the battery, qi is its manifestation.

Hi Marblehead, I think this chapter is wonderful!! It encompasses all that is great about the Chinese perspective of ancient and modern times. I do believe that in Lao Tzu's time, shamans were the hub of most societies; consulted for all manner of things and represent the very nature of balance between energy that has life and a body and energy that is alive but has no body. It is very Daoist, this is why I singled it out. The whole great history of Daoism is intertwined with spirits and Immortals and Shamans. Even Chuang Tzu refers to 'Holymen and shamans in his stories. Daoism is probably unique in the world in respect that it is the only philosophical/religious practice that does not have a God head, but sees that animals and people through the process of enlightenment can become Gods. Chuang Tzu once said that blindness is not just physical it can be mental also!!

Definitely not!! I believe that qi is just a component and around it we have all the ways of sustaining its continued renewal and survival of what we term as life. Great misunderstandings can happen when translating English to Chinese and vice-versa. A completely different perspective is very difficult to transcribe into another language without the same meanings, that is why I think Flowing Hands DDJ is of most great importance to people in the west or should I say English speaking people, because he has obviously used a greater understanding of what is Chinese into the greater understanding of what is English. I don't believe that all traditional Chinese concepts are right either.

Hi I get your drift and have known about what you are saying, but I think this is different. What I believe women feel, is more to do with blood loss and hormone changes. Their essential Jing comes from their mothers and fathers going back to the very beginning of time. Men's jing is the same, but because men make sperm all the time and draw on their jing all the time, whereas women's eggs were formed when they were a fetus in the womb of their mothers, essentially they don't lose their jing. But their qi can go up and down just like a man's.

Of course! Blood flows better when the qi is strong and stimulated, everything works better. Good blood qi equals good organ and muscle condition. The jing is strong and is not being depleted. When the jing is not being depleted so the qi can start to build. When the qi is stimulated the 'blood qi can be seen in the hands at various times of the day, according to what one is doing. This takes us back to the definition of qi.

Women's 'jing' is a complicated affair and is to do with the making of eggs, not the menstruation. The jing lies in the ovaries and is not affected by menstruation. It is the same as the making of the sperm in men, But many millions are made each day (we hope!!!) which draw on vital jing. The eggs in a women's ovaries are already there, formed in the womb and stimulated to develop further only at puberty or when fertilized. So women do not lose their 'jing'. One could even go further and say inherited 'jing'/qi, but then we are going off the subject.

Both

You fortunately do not lose vital 'jing', because female 'jing' is not linked to relations, so to speak.

Hi all you ghost busters I've just swung down the pole to serve you up my original post back some time ago!! Yes its Flowing Hands chapter 60!!! CHAPTER 60 In dealing with evil, let Heaven do the biding. For Heaven can see all things, and everything will find its just reward. In dealing with evil, seek for the Daoist Shaman. For he is in touch with Heaven and so is able to deal with evil. Evil is powerful, so avoid any conflict and leave well alone. Those who dabble in such things will only harm themselves and others. Then the Shaman's job is made more difficult and he may lose his life. The Shaman is a treasure to the people, for he calls up Saints and Immortals, and when the people are starving, he opens up Heaven and beautiful rain will follow. He protects all things within a balance and performs selfless actions. He is a Sage and is treasured by Heaven There must be a ghost in there somewhere! Perhaps I could start up a new thread about what is an immortal?? Might be interesting?

Hi chidragon, I must still press my point that one must define Qi before one then can recognize it truly as a manifestation in the body. It is so easy to delude oneself and others!!! I refer back again to my first post which I was taught nearly thirty years ago about 'blood qi' and its signs etc. These all are part of TCM. Blood qi can be seen at the early stages of development and show the state of the internal qi and workings of the body. It is not just qigong that can stimulate but many other types of exercise can also. I feel the defining part of Qi will show us that any other types of exercise can also stimulate qi. Blood qi is the first signs of qi gathering more potential than normal. To develop the first stages of qi development requires us chaps to be completely celibate for some years. I do believe that conserving 'jing' is very important which one can't do if one is not!! I think we still haven't defined what qi is yet!!

Hi Chidragon I don't think this is a proper definition. Because just one point, although I do believe some qi comes from the air that we breath, certainly not all of it. Some may come from the food/water that we eat/drink but not all of it. I believe that a great deal comes from the universe etc. which charges the air, food etc that we take in, but this is certainly not the whole story, so we have to define what we feel is the essence of qi. If you see what I mean. Once we have an all encompassing definition, then we can take that and see the effects it has on the body.

Here is my few thoughts on the matter! One first has to know what Qi is to even begin to recognize what/ how it manifests itself in the body. So what is it? If one can't actually know EXACTLY what it is, then one is just guessing. I don't think it is necessary to consult manuals/ teachers to realize it, a lot of them don't really know themselves, they just want your money or for you to look up to them. I think it has something to do with breath, but then again nothing at all!! I think it has something to do with food and water, but then again nothing at all!! I think it has something to do with the universe, the earth and evolution, but then that's my own opinion. So what is it? Once we have established a definite answer to this then we can go on to some realization of how this definition manifests itself in the body. Without this I think it is like the blind leading the blind in a very dark place.

Hi, When I first started practicing martial art, I was frustrated by the fact that I didn't understand the concept of Qi and what it was and how to develop it. My Sifu said to me keep practicing, be celibate, tighten the lower Dan Tien, practice this specific Qi Gong exercise very day in the early morning. The first sign that things are developing are called 'blood Qi'. When the blood Qi is strong the hands at different times of the day will be slightly swollen, red, and very red at the tips of the fingers. This may take five years of the right practice. After this stage you definitely know you are developing your Qi!!!! If you are a woman, lucky things, you don't have to remain celibate! "Hard,Hard,Hard! The Way is most obscure! Deem not the Gold elixir a common thing. He whom imparts dark mysteries not to a perfect man Is bound to make words empty, the mouth tired, and the tongue dry." "All power resides in the semen, the breath and the spirit. Guard these with care, securely, lest there be a leak." quotes from the Hsi-yu Chi

see below

HI TWIV, The great thing about this forum and long may it remain, is for the most part one can remain anonymous, or one can give all your personal details away. I am a well respected traditional Kung Fu Master with a long lineage back to the founder of Wang Mu Xian Shi in Northern China. Her art she invented she called 'Gong Jian Quan' (Bow and Arrow Fist). This comprised of two long forms and chart her development in martial arts. The third form she called 'Du Jian Quan' (poison arrow fist), the last and most devastating form. Wang Mu is celebrated as an Immortal, a bit like the founder of Tai Chi Chuan is. I think what is great about this is that I can come onto this forum discuss many aspects of religion, philosophy and martial arts and no one knows who I am, my views stand by what I write not by my title and they are either agreed with or in most cases not at all. I find that refreshing and a learning process in itself. I personally am not interested in who anyone else is, but I'm interested in what they have to say and how they say it. In that way none of us can get offended or say the wrong thing to the wrong person.

Hi, What I can do is guess in answer to this, based on my very long years of being the student of another Daoist Holyman, Yoon Kin Tong and by the way he would think and the teachings he left me with. The basis of Daoism is not to interfere, not to seek fame and fortune etc. all these things are written as basics in the DDJ. I think it must be a hard position to be in, knowing that you believe the world to befall a great catastrophe and sticking to the principles that you have adhered to. In such cultures as the native American Indians, shamans sought visions from their spirit guides when their people were starving or in danger, they could communicate these things to their people and they would be understood. Most of the people on this forum having never seen or met a traditional Daoist Holyman, equally don't really know much about the subject either I would guess. Some would say such practices were heterodox, even though shamanism was being practiced in China thousands of years before Lao Tzu wrote his DDJ. So I guess to address the very people who would eventually perpetrate this act would be difficult in many ways, seeing that most people on this site don't believe what he is saying, and they are Daoists!! How could you convince another person with another point of view completely, to give up what they believe and follow another path??? Some good general reading: Black Elk speaks, Lakota native American Shaman The teachings of Taoist Master Chuang by Michael Saso Chung Tzu ;inner chapters has some good stories of Daoist Holymen There are many more!!!!

Hi TWIV, Perhaps you should write a letter yourself to whoever this person is, they may be able to pass it on to Flowing Hands? I don't need to question this site because of my own training and my own experiences, but you obviously need some more info to get a handle on it perhaps!??

Hi there my last thoughts about this thread is this; Fa is fa there is no other defining splits in its practice. If you have good fa your energy will be extended to others, to inanimate objects and to the atmosphere. Depending on your personal cultivation, one can extend this fa for healing and harm. The lowest level of fa is extending it by touch, the highest level is by extension only. The degree in which it is possible to knock over a man or an inanimate object without touch is extremely high and rarer still. An inanimate object is the real test no fakers can ever survive this test. Show me a genuine video of a person moving a very heavy object independently of their interference without touch and I will have great respect for this person.

Hi TWIV, I looked back again at what you said, and no I don't agree. Twenty years ago he made available his version of the DDJ which has found good favor with many people on this forum since I have introduced it. He is not promoting his views, but that of Lao Tzu. The vision that he was given was not his, but of his Masters. He is telling us, as any shaman would, what the spirit has told him. I would imagine that if Flowing Hands had an ego centered reason for promoting his own views, it would have been the Dao according to Flowing Hands, not according to Lao Tzu. My own reasons for promoting positively this site is that the DDj is really great and I myself have been the student of another Holyman, Wu Shi tong. Who's Master was Huang Lo Xian Shi (Old Yellow Immortal Master). I have great experience of Daoist shamanism. So I believe that this site is a genuine message from the spirit world to sort out the way we are living before its too late. As you have said it is obvious but I feel we must not pass it off as just that.

Hi many things change in very little time. This time ten years ago we never thought that a religious group would be able to blow up the twin towers!! I don't think we should be so naive.

Hi TWIV, I think you are right, but the nagging thought that haunts me is my many times in the far east with many experiences of traditional Daoist shamans at work in temples or at peoples homes. I think it is a great shame that even people on this forum do not have any experience of genuine shamanism, let alone Daoist Shamanism and as you yourself have said, look at it as 'left handed practice' even though it was being practiced thousands of years before Daoist religion was organised!! We will have to wait and see what develops.

CHAPTER 59 In serving Heaven and dealing with all things, know a balance and have restraint. In having restraint know the natural order. In knowing the natural order, be at one with the Dao. Being at one with the Dao, one knows how to care for all things without bias or preference. And so, the natural order is not upset. Man interferes with the natural order, and so he makes problems for himself. Too much kindness is no good. Nature takes care of all things and so man should not interfere. For it will only cause problems and imbalances. Man is the only creature that interferes. The Ten Thousand Things rise and fall naturally, and so they are balanced. Strengthen the body and simplify your life, and so pass on a healthy body to the next generation. For the weaker the body, the more atrophy will set in, in the generations to come. The weaker the body, the more it is prone to disease, imbalance and malformation. Just put this up for comparison