on the path

Perhaps we should live our lives to the full and when our time has come, accept it, accept it as following the natural way? What people probably fear is the unknown. Here is the beginning of religion and controlling of the masses. Love, of course is the foundation of spiritual practice, but equally can be the downfall if unbalanced.

Hi there, I think the Chinese definition of what Qi Gong, depends on where you go?!! I think the starting point is that there are many different forms of 'exercise', where does internal training finish and Qi gong start? Where does Qi gong end and martial art begin? Isn't internal training combined with external, can one be devoid of the other? Perhaps we should be looking at the source and not at its branches?

Hi the way is virtue, I looked back at the web site of Flowing Hands and he has a rant at politics and religion. Politics I do believe is the organisation of people and religion the organised spiritual guidance and belief of people. He doesn't say the cause of the war will be politics which could be equally possible. He does say that religion will be the cause. He is quite specific. I don't think many people in the modern age understand shamanism. Most people's experience is of paying large sums of money to someone who either drugs them or tries to delude them. There is an organisation that devotes its whole energy to de-bunking so called shamans. They go on a register of 'plastic shamans'. The organisation exist to promote genuine shamanism. I go back to my original point which you did not answer. Whats in it for Flowing Hands?

Its not if you know what you are looking for!!!

Beware, not all Daoist works are Daoist!!! I once joined a Daoist group but quickly found that they were not the least Daoist. There were so many rules, one became lost as to what one was doing!!

Hi rene, I'm going back to my same point, 'De' does not exist if you follow the Dao and translate it as 'virtue'. Most people translate this as 'virtue'/moral code, this is I feel the completely wrong English definition of the the word, because as a Daoist one follows the 'Dao', that to me means following the very source of all things and the natural way things inter-relate. Humans make morals the Dao does not. So to me 'De' means 'from the source we act and be according to the circumstances we are in, following what is natural by our power that we are given by the life force'. There is none of this overlay of 'morals' or of the controlling of behavior that one would expect from a lot of religions. If one takes an overview of Lao Tzu's work, I feel there is a definite view of no morals, no rules etc. and of simply following the way.

Hi marblehead, I think you've become a Daoist!!!!!!(hehe) The mystery is there its up to us to find it, so Lao Tzu says. "The nameless, is the Mother of Heaven and Earth" No singular God there, no God at all!! Big Bang, its the only thing we have to equate to it. But it seems to me we have a different view from any other religion in the world here. We don't know exactly was the cause of all things coming into existence, but its certainly not God according to Lao Tzu, but whatever it was has made Gods and Immortals to exist. Not the other way round. Using our senses we can see the manifestations, using our hearts we sense the great mystery of creation. They come from the same source, but one we cannot see using only our senses. Lao Tzu's whole work I feel is about taking ourselves back to the source where we can perceive the "path of all mystery". That means to me letting go of all our prejudices, our desires and the things that we have learn't, until we are empty. We then can relearn without these things, leaving our perceptions clear to see what is there. The most difficult bit for all of us I think is being truly empty!!!

Who needs religion when we have the Dao? I think there are enormous differences between religions, which alter our perspectives on life and the value and treatment we then put on other life. If one is taught not to value women for instance and other life, how can that lead to enlightenment? How can the belief in one Male God be equal. Women are our greatest treasures, they give life to the next generations and yet half the worlds religion treat them as second class citizens. In the Dao all things are equal. All people are equal, all life is equal. All life comes from the great source of creativity. I think we should be following this not some stupid religion that takes us away from the source.

Hi Stig watched this video, don't bother wasting your time traveling to this man! He has no abilities in fa jin. I don't think I have great abilities in fa jin either, but many years ago I taught a qi gong class, my students questioned me about the credibility of qi. So I stacked up some heavy tables on the hall stage, stood in front of them, using only two fingers on the front table released my fa jin and moved them all backwards. I never used my torso, my spine or my legs to generate power. I then asked my students one by one to move one table backwards using their palms only. Some used all their strength and couldn't move one table, some manged to move the table by using their legs and torso. My point was made! This a good test of any fa jin abilities when using an inanimate object and not a person.

I personally don't feel any of these guys are particularly good at their fa jin strikes. If you study all of their postures, they all have to rely to some degree on basic principals of generating 'power' by winding up their torso's/spines. True striking or touching fa jin does not require this. The torso will be static, the shoulders static, the legs static, the arm only small movement, the hand/palm/finger tips sudden explosive movement which one may not even see.

Hi you guys, Managed to get some posts in on Stig's fa jin, interesting stuff. I've been reading your posts on this chapter. I can see now why its so difficult to get an exact meaning to what has been written of lao Tzu's original text. I should imagine that one particular pictogram could quite easily be used to mean many different things and in Lao Tzu's time it may have even had different meanings in various parts of China. It may have had a completely different meaning then (600 bc) to what we have today. I think this is the great value of what Flowing Hands has given us, we don't need to bother to struggle with the various translations and meanings of each pictogram linked to the others. We are simply given it in good old plain English. But then here I go again! Opps.

Hi Stig, I don't think these are particularly extraordinary. The first two guys is what I think one should expect from any half descent teacher. Set pattern sparring although is good for practice and technique but is boring! Once you've seen one you've seen them all. I once saw a clip of an old Chinese guy demonstrate snake art his yang fa jin was very powerful in terms of strikes. The worst thing about padded up combat is exactly that. As soon as gloves are on etc. technique tends to go out the window and it melts down to becomeing more like Thai boxing.

Hi Goldisheavy, this is my perspective. If we start off on the basis of TCM and Qi Gong etc. then we understand as much as it is possible that all matter is formed from the elements of the earth and from the universe. It is given life by vital energy. this energy comes from all different places, from the air we breath the food we eat etc etc. I believe that when things die that released energy melts back into the surrounding atmosphere. It remains as 'charged particles'. Some would even say this was the soul. If there are millions of 'souls' floating around the atmosphere, and you are just a conduit for this energy then you are opening yourself up to all manner of energies that you might not want to if you knew what they were. A great deal of harm can come of this I have experienced this myself. One is almost bordering on mediumship without any protection. The body is full of power, without it, it wouldn't be alive! I don't believe you can store your power anywhere else, only Lord voldermot could!!!! The stomach is not important it is located under the left ribs, it is the area below the naval that is important; the evolutionary battery. I'm not sure whether others would agree with what I've written here, but its what I understand in my limited knowledge.

Of course, but I don't agree, only being a conduit is a very dangerous thing to do indeed do not attempt this very often. Greed, egomania and delusion come from human perceptions and are not part of the essential Dao. To posses such power does require one to become humble and to only use it when necessary. Like all things (and now we take the path of the DDJ thread), positions of power can very easily result in misuse and corruption. I don't believe it is limiting. I do believe that ordinary strength is limiting but cultivating internal power has no limit. I don't believe it would be shoved into one's stomach either!! I think you've got the wrong idea there.

Just got time to add this also. Back to my original post, it is only common sense, if you get hit by an electrical current it will hurt, burn and possibly kill you. The amount of volts one needs to issue energy sufficient to move the average human being is a great deal!!. To posses this amount of energy all the time and be able to summon it at will means that the body must be changed over many, many years, so that it can withstand that amount of voltage passing through it. It 300 volts will kill and move a man so it will kill the person who posses it!!!

I love it!! The worst fakers I've ever seen, you even see the faker nod his head when he wants the student to go backwards!!

Hi Stig, I'm sorry to say the way Tai Chi Quan is taught today, you will never develop the real 'fa jin'. (I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me!). Tai Chi is a good art but is loosing its martial and real internal training to 'moving meditation'. Developing real 'fa jin' requires the stimulation of 'qi' one can't develop such a powerful qi by being floppy and relaxed all the time. There are special 'fa gong' exercises which one has to practice for many years and be celibate!!! I have also seen many videos and celebrated masters do the fa jin and they are all fakes. The real fa jin does not need the practitioner to move or extend the qi out of the hands. To accomplish real fa jin, I think the practitioner is on the way to becoming an Immortal!! I don't think there are many out there! This is my humble experience.

I have never seen anyone who can do the real 'fa jin'. There are a lot of fakes! Real cultivation of the 'fa' means real knowledge. not many people posses this knowledge. When someone has cultivated their 'fa', they can extend it from their body without moving. Real 'fa jin' will damage and bruise the person who it has hit. A GOOD TEST OF 'fA JIN' WILL BE IF THE RECIPIENT HAS BEEN BADLY BRUISED. No other test will be full proof than this. Hope this helps?

Hi folks, I'm not going to post Flowing Hands version on here I'll let someone else do that. I'm beginning to feel like an ageing hippy going on about the benefits of weed!!!! I feel like I'm spending far too much time on this computer and not on other important maters (mostly family harmony), so I won't be posting very often now, but I thought I would let you know about some of my own background. I have been the student of a Holyman myself: Yoon Kin Tong. Master Tong was the student of Huang Lo Xian Shi (Old Yellow Immortal Master). Huang Lo Xian Shi taught Master Tong many martial and spiritual arts. These arts I have taught to others who have then displayed them at national championships and won medals. I have been nationally awarded for my contribution to the world of Chinese martial arts through my writing in martial art magazines. With such a background the Flowing Hands book was a God send in clearly giving the DDJ greater insight. I have traveled the world doing research on 'shamanism' and I have concluded that there are so many different forms etc. and its certainly not BS. Flowing Hands transmission of the DDJ I know has been adopted as the true words of Lao Tzu in some Temples in Malaysia. I have really enjoyed my banter with you all and hope you can make use of the Flowing Hands version on this site to further enlightenment and break down the walls of prejudice and misunderstanding.

You've raised some good points there. People are to blame, but how does one propose that such a person like Flowing Hands goes about telling people what is to come without falling into being like the Falun dafa people, Sai Baba, the christian sects who hike property and money etc and all the others, and sticking to the principle of not seeking fame or riches in doing this work? This is what has struck me, he appears not to have done this. Whats in it for him? He comes from a traditional source, no one man band business, his sect can be found in Hong kong, Singapore and Malaysia, a long line in traditional Daoist Shamanism, no plastic here! (ref:plastic shamanism) (Mao Shun I do believe). I can't see any reasons to doubt his integrity? I'll tell you what we should do about it, how about we all join the international campaign for nuclear disarmament and hope the hell he's wrong!! For where I'm standing, having done extensive research over the years, I don't think we should be aligning this man with others like Falun dafa, nor calling it BS, I think we should be aligning him to people like the Hopi Indian Holyman of old, who went on vision quests etc. to help their people. I think we should take the gift that he has offered up to us for free with an open mind (think like traditional Chinese, not like western 'gwai lo's' with 'mo yung ching'). Yes the original book came from the uk and I'm sure whoever designed his web site must know more about the whole thing? It is stated on the front cover of the original book of Lao Tzu's true words, these were then passed onto someone else who then passed them on to be printed. Flowing Hands clearly states that he doesn't want to be found. So I suppose we can't ever communicate with him? A chain from the origin which can't be traced!! Which brings us back to your apt and clearly stated points!

Hi I feel the example you used there is not the same 'virtue' that say Lao Tzu may use to mean 'guidance' from within, especially from the heart.

I don't think the word 'virtue' exist in Daoism it is a man made concept. the Dao does not have any concepts and the shaman doesn't need concepts nor virtue to exist. good and evil only exist in the minds of men but not in the Dao. The shaman emulates the Dao so he/she does not have virtue only Dao. Their actions are guided by Dao not virtue whatever this means. This brings us back to the concept of 'wu wei' and the root of the shaman dancing. Dancing with no mind of no action of no virtue of being at one with the Dao. No concepts! This is what I feel anyway.

Yes perhaps my use of the word 'important' was misplaced, but in the history of Daoism, only did the yellow turbans sect ever go to war and Daoists by their very nature do not interfere with the way the world is going. His original book contains great compassion and love for all things. The whole book is dedicated to all life and I have lived with this book for twenty years. I feel that he has 'gone to war' on religion and people who perpetrate abuse on others. I noted his rant at politics and religion on his web site. For a traditional shaman to come out and say what he is saying, put his neck on the line, it must be important. I have studied shamanism around the world, most shamans shy away from ever getting involved with world issues. The issue of nuclear war has always been there. But Flowing Hands is saying that we need to deal with it before its too late. I think it is all too easy to be skeptical, he has given us no reasons not to believe what he is saying. I can't see the money passing hands, the millions of followers, or the conjuring tricks to fool people. We don't know who he is (I only know he is a he because of the original book). His version of the DDJ shows great understanding beyond the confusion of most other translations. I think we need to have an open mind.

Just add Flowing Hands version to the discussion CHAPTER 52 The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth. In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

Just add my little thoughts here about the character 'wu'; shaman. There is also another name for a dancing shaman 'feng Shi' and from what I know both are associated with dancing and 'feathers'. Although primarily female dancing shamans are more to do with male fantasies!! Both male and female shamans would dance in set patterns holding various objects that were associated with the rite or spirit they wished to invite. Today modern shamans use swords, flags, fly whisks, palm leaves etc and dance a routine according to the rite. Some hold the Dao De Jhing in their hands, the tong su, and amulets drawn from another occasion. Some dance and spread holy water, some dance with many people entranced who then receive the healing that they require. Both characters to my knowledge have their roots in 'a feathery person dancing'.