WhiteTiger

Agreed and i will attempt in having some fun Which reminds me... Sorry for not keeping up with the stuff... honestly i don't have the book but i hope that i can join in the middle or in the late and commenting on stuff. I'm just in search of knowledge and wisdom, just like most others are. I don't really understand 18. I fear that i never will but that just means i gotta work much harder to understand it. So i guess being enlightened or at least thats the word that comes to mind when i hear "Truth shines as a formless perfection, and as the substratum of the world" I can clearly say I have not realized the Self... my self. I also know when a teacher of mine started doing purposely bad things to me messing with me and getting away with it was when he had a long discussion asking me if i understood what my true self was. I assume now that thats because he had understood what his true self was. 18 is a complete blank for me (i feel bad because of it too... honestly bad because of it) 19 is a very interesting discussion. I have felt glimpses of and little spurts of practicing to the tiniest level of the fact you can create your own destiny and you can have your own free-will to actually to some level control it. Depending on your ability to do so. I go back and forth between believing in this. I don't understand why. When I don't believe in it it is always to my demise and when I believe in it I always survive duality or strive to stay away from being caught in duality without being tainted. I know from experience this is true. Personally i understand this is taoism we speak of but is it not the our mother that techniqually show our survivability and thus creating out true source of self. (reminder that I'm a male, it could be opposite for a female, although I'm not sure it is or isn't) I have even read books that claim that destiny is preordained that you can not escape it and the only thing you can do is change it. although thats only a thought to make people start thinking a little more about being free from destiny and free-will.

I am a beginner and know very little, (actually i like to see myself as the person before a beginner, gee once i learned all about humbling self i really like to take it to the best extreme i can hehe ) but whatever points i believe 100% i know for a fact i would like to share although I'm a beginner so i could still be wrong. (hehe i know doesn't give me a vote of confidence) I know that the Chackras, nedis and well basically the chakra energy body is different then the taoist energy body. They are both the energy body but often times they are not mix in different each others practices (At least to my knowledge) I believe (through my own experience i speak now) because these things are used for different purposes. At least thats my understanding... Sidenote: you know even if i'm completely wrong with this i hope in giving wrong advice (which i honestly don't think i'm doing) someone could come in and correct me, either way SiliconValley and I get more properly informed. Although i really don't think i'm wrong about this. But you know how it goes "never say never" It sounds to me Mantak Chia (having not studied under Mantak Chia) that he uses chackras as points of references for places in the body and might not even refer to those specific points, and if so my mind immediately jumps to thinking the way he does it is a slightly different practice for a different purpose compared to what I was taught and the tinny little itty bit i experienced. (without thinking it over but then over time still investigating the truth of the matter) Personally I think reading a book can give you a good intellectual understanding (using one side of your brain) of how things work, although its referances and truths are based on the person that wrote it and there actual intentions. Reading a book to me is only as valuable as your experiences are in life. Reading a book can jog your memory the fact that you contemplate what it said and realize great bits of knowledge that you wouldn't have nessarily been aware of if you didn't think about it without reading some good text. Thats actually only using one side (more or less) of your brain. You can also read for a intellectual understand (to understand on a better intellectual level) of something you already experienced and though you understood it. This also turns into bettering your understanding of the language. Which is an art form in itself. Hehe i could go on and on how it is attached to chinese culture and taoism... well at least i like to think i can. I suspect there is but I'm not sure. It all depends exactly what your doing. To get a full education as if your becoming a master... well thats a different story, and once again one i have not experienced (but understand intellectually how it is supposed to work) I'm not sure, if you find it though PM me I'm interested in any corrections and other comments or teachings other people have to say on the matter.

Just reading a little bit of this i thought i would immediately point out... Taoism is about understanding what effects comes from a practice, and finds the usefulness of the practice within its effects. --There is no usefulness in getting stuck on a practice, its the fact you got stock on the practice that it requires change on your part so you are still continuing your way on your goal. I'll give a small example of two different practices which lead to two different people explain it in a completely different way. As if they had difference in opinion on the same matter (which wasn't the same matter at all). edit: "There is no usefulness in getting stuck on a practice" is referring to getting addicted to a feeling, enjoying a sensation and/or continuing to drive for that sensation, the thought of only wanting to have a so and such feeling. Thats what i mean getting stuck. Its not continual growth. That evolves, or as taoists say "changes".

The Three treasures of Taoism often refer to many different things. The most populare in Neigong practice (there are two general uses of the word neigong, the people that use it to discribe its an exercise like Neigong itself, and Neigong as a name to label a specific practice that reaches Immortality. At least from my observations and what I've read.) Anyway, I can assure you it is not exactly distinctively one of the three, Qi, Jing or Shen. As Max himself describes it as Energy. Qi is roughly translated into Energy... despite what type it is non-the-less it is energy. Not Jing which roughly translates to a person's essence or Shen which i have not yet opened my awareness to the exact experience that defines it but people that often agree with the first two translations i just said claim Shen to be spirit.

I would like to add to the conversation. many if not all Buddhist practices (at a high enough level) bring you to clarity "the sight" having complete and total insight (or achieving it at some point or another) = Awareness of some kind Taoists at higher levels seek clerity, Insight. seeing on the plane with no substance nor form. Where the Tao is clearly able to be understood = Awareness of conscious mind and the understanding of choices that you make (and often times not very smart Taoists do actions not based on understanding situations with clerity which brings them to bad choice which bring bad circumstances) I know very little if anything about Hinduism but I'm sure they in there own clarity or insight in a way or form. Also same with true teachings of Confucius and not just the ordered way Confucius Chinese culture is supposed to be conducted according to Confucius laws. = Awareness of some kind So in this respect they all seek clarity or some form of awareness. In this respect they all have this goal. Weather the end all goal is to actually to become Immortal, enlightened, reach Nirvana, or whatever (which I'm told again and again are all different things, despite what many others believe or thought of it of those ideas) They have different purposes and different goals achieving different things. My end all point is (what i believe to be quite clear but i shall put it into words) All these paths and many other paths attempt to put us with Awareness... seeming in some sort of way to become enlightened (this definition now encompasses many different types of considerations and uses of the word enlightened and is not speaking of a specific one) I hope this actually helps on the matter I can personally speak about Judaism, many of our customs, like praying for water we drink and food we eat is to humble ourselves. I think the the true understanding of practices in Judaism is really misunderstood. They do have reasons for doing everything, but that isn't really the heart of a reason you do it... its the doing it that brings about the experience that is the heart of why you do it. (Although in Judaism they believe in the practice of studying all your life, and is one of the main reasons why I believe they have survived for so long. Knowledge is power!) Judaism I think at the heart of it is always misunderstood. The only true understanding is when you either practice it with very very religious practitioners that already embody the religion the way its supposed to and personally I rarely see many practitioners that teach or preach the much more deeper understandings. Weather the true meaning is hidden in our traditions is the real question.

Patrick Brown qoute seems to be the right stuff that I've experienced in my life. Some of the one words to describe the Chakras are well... idk not descriptive enough but the short few words that come after that describe it perfectly. (makes me understand the meaning behind those one word liners to signal what each Chakra is) Anyway, often times when describing filling up Chakras and cleansing them is all about the definition. Many say and claim if they aren't opened then you would be dead. They always have to be opened. Then the question is what is considered opened. So I'm sure you get where I'm going with this. Lets say it like this, when you've completely filled them in a completely in a completely cleansed state (or healthy state), supposedly there permanently opened. (as for methods of how this works, I'm honestly sorry, I failed and continue to do this wit the Root Chakra, The Sacral Chakra and the Navel Chakra unfortunately. (i'm just speaking on my own experiences) Hope that helped and peace

Agreed!

In Taoism (and i'm sure in other practices also a small but good example would be buddhism) try to listen to not the words people speak. But the meaning behind it. It is an art of using words well (or the right words) to discribe something what one means. Some words have labels or are a label. For example names are labals that are given to represent something specific. I personally know of two definitions of Kunlun. (i don't claim there the only ones) Kunlun is considered the "mastery of the head" Another name of Kunlun is the mountain range in China. (which is another a label to describe a specific mountain) I did a fast search on google images and found: http://www.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/geogre...eagif/chmtn.gif Sorry I am unable to answer your question directly. Its my suspesion (just a suspesion) that Kunlun is not one of the actual defintion used. Although it still has merit because it is a label used to define soemthing (which is the meaning were talking about. To try and understand what one person says by the meaning of Kunlun) Now I'm do not speak chinese and there are 7 different meanings for the same word said in a different tone in contonese and 4 in maderian. So the english translation of Kunlun could have many many meanings. But, there are many different types of Chi, not just one Chi. Chi is a catagory for a bunch of different types of energies. Some would say that Chi translates to Energy in english while this is not the 100% full meaning or understanding it generally applies. I've overheard that Kundalini is actually the same as Hot Yang Chi energy. Weather that is true or not I suspect so but i have no practiced Kundalini energy so i can not say 100% for sure. It is indeed a big question and requires lots of work to find out what Max means and the type of energy that this Kunlun energy is. I never heard of a Kunluner talk on this board (not that i've read all the kunluners posts) that Max teaches Kunlun energy along with an art. I've heard other practices that are different that he learns and teaches. Just trying to help out my 2 cents and i hope it helped to some degree

Qigong and Neigong is what makes Tai Chi a meditation in motion. With out those it makes it a dance, with only some effects if the teacher is transmiting anything.

Sure there can be visualizations in Tai Chi. Visualizations are used to help achieve the merits of the visualization intended. Is there generically visualizations honestly I'm not sure. Mal, xuesheng, and Taomeow, ST, or anyone else that can answer the question you know if there is generic visualizations pretty much all teachers of tai chi teach when learning tai chi? (like its a must learn and most teachers teach that way?) Well, out of the Taoist Arts there is Xing Yi, (there are other spellings of it Xing = Hsing and Yi = I) Bagua. They all have meditation in movement. They all work with energy but if you find a good teacher in these they normally teach you how to fight with it, that is if you get a good teacher. If you don't get a good teacher they will just teach you form. Basically the connotation is for competitions. (often times when schools only teacher you form you only know the form and not the actual practical applications, then agian its just a generalization)

If looking for real good Tai Chi practitioners you need to make sure they are happy and willing to teach you the Chi-gong that goes along with it along with the Nei-gong that goes along with it. Finding a school that does this at least in the beginning stages of starting off at this tai chi school is a very hard thing to find. GL to you and your search. some others might be able to direct you in the right direction. What type of white crane might I ask?

Decent, thanks for asking. You mind rephrasing the question a little better? (I'm sure there are others on the website that could better answer you question, although i feel your question is kind of hard to understand. *excuse me for not being so welcoming* What exactly do you mean what is Tai Chi all about. Its kinda like asking whats movement all about? You go to a physical theripest and they will tell you one view, you go to a kinesiologist they will tell you another view and you go to a Guru they tell you another view of it. Anyway, according to me Tai Chi is a lot of things but most importantly it starts with learning balance. Balance with everything. Balance internal and external. balance yourself. Balance Yin and Yang within yourself. Through balance can you start to learn the functions and understandings of causing more balance within yourself (Strengthening your resilience) and learning how to use others imbalances against themselves. This would be my definition of Tai Chi but then again I'm not teacher of Tai Chi, nor have i been practicing it for many years. As i see no one has taken the time to answer this question and seeing that i have, maybe others want to also put there prospective in words on this post... *looks around at TTB posters* Hope that helps

It definately requires lots of sensitivity, and to be yourself balanced, just to help someone else out with there sexuality. I know, from being on both sides how emotionally charged the whole deal can be, I'm sure many also know.

I change my point of view on the matter. I never really thought that I was picking up secondary effects. I always saw it as reading things that basically was on another plane and often times I can or can not describe these things and when i do often people think I'm making things up like its magic or something. (which lead me to believe I just understood things that others could not. But now i realize its secondary effects which are even more subtle then the first effects. I'm talking specific things here that are confrontational things between two people and me taking part in the aftermath) the fact that i realized it was from a subtle of the secondary effects that leads me to believe something else happened that most or no other people observed it unless they had been there when the action or event happened. Great stuff thanks for the talk... has already opened my eyes more!

Are we all not trying to achieve Wu Ji in one way or another weather we realize it? Well, I must admit most of my education is Taoist (which trust me doesn't extend vary far in education). In my small education time i spent learning just a little bit of taoism there were small tiny traces of some other stuff which i believe to be some sort of tibatan buddhism or some sort of buddhism but to little of the traces are there for me to pinpoint what it is. As for you saying that Wu Ji isn't found in Taoism, I'm not to sure thats correct, in Taoism theres Internal Alchemy, the most famous would be achieving immortality through a long series of internal alchemy practices, through here do you not at one point have to achieve Wu Ji, or am i completely and totally wrong? (Don't get me wrong I'm definately not trying to say how things are but rather asking a question to anyone and everyone reading this board?)

Sorry to screw with anyone already on this topic. I do not mean to get everyone to start all over trying to explain it to me, and I in no way am trying to start arguements. I believe just being you weren't there to perviece it means you mind didn't coprehend it. Thus in your mind it wasn't comprehended, DOES not mean that it didn't happen. If you claim it is not real (subjective reality, or in the words of more a taoist talk, personal reality) this is true. BUT if you claim that it never happened does not hold true, just your subjective reality, it didn't happen. You have no recollection of what happened. You do not know. I'm not saying go crazy trying to figure out the unreal, or what could have really happened or what did happen. I am however saying just because you didn't observe it to happen DOESN'T MEAN IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! Reality happens weather we are aware of it or not. This reality is not subjective (or personalized to your views and own experiences) Yet, we can not postulate what could have happened without evidance. Nor do I personally like to waste my time doing such things. But just because we didn't observe something doesn't mean its not real. I've had many people agrue me different. This subject and my personal view of it, is not something I'm willing to budge on. All I can say is and ask the readers to try to think hard about, how does one becomes a Master of sword play? To master it means he must experience a great deal and feel he has gone in every direction of mastering every fine detail of every skill involved. But how can this master be a true master if he hasn't found out how to master things he hasn't yet come accross. Does he not have to experience it all? Does he know he experienced it all? So in the end if he has this master of sword play must be a master above all other masters that haven't experienced everything. Maybe my logic hasn't got enough meaning for I haven't achieved Wu Chi. but what i have understood in theory and what i have gotten to in my practices have lead me to this belief.

Thats a good question. I'll be extremely opened and honest to you and infront of everyone else on the board. The last Taoist female practioner i was practicing with (was my teacher) actually played with my sexuality. she did not help me and she totally !@#$ed me up. I should have removed myself from the situation, I did not trust her to start out, and i shouldn't have continued to want to learn what she was teaching (which was what i wanted to learn, and had nothing to do with playing with my sexuality) So, quite plainly put. It is extremely beneficial for us (males) to intereact with women on this energetic level. I would also like to add most men you come in contact want to sabotage themselves, and/or they want to screw you up, and/or too overly screwed up to be helped. Sadly enough every female I now-a-days come in contact with just want to screw me up more, or help me sabotage myself.

Excuss me for not knowing all my proper terms to explain in this field or talk. But I would like clearification on exactly what your talking about, the change of non sexual Yin and Ynag energy with a female to help balance yourself out. If it isn't the same as sexual energy my proper experience says yes. A teacher long ago told me that there was a ritual of males and females in a Taoist group that believed having sex with another to retain there Yin or Yang energy was the right way to balance themselves out. (it was explained that this sect was more like a cult and it was where men worshiped women and another one was explained where women worshiped men, but some how those women would try and take, or steal the energy of the men while at the same time the women looked at the men as gods) My point being my misunderstanding exactly what your talking about makes me think you could be talking about two different things totally different, one being good the other being completely bad... but then again thats why i read on the boards in hopes i can learn stuff from actual people instead of books. (While I also use books as a reasource) The way i answered my question was specifically to raise a lot of questions about a lot of things. I wasn't trying to start arguements of any sort. But raise questions in people where they can comtemplate on them, and look for other reasources (like books and teachers they know of) to help them figure what seek proper for them. What the right answer is for them. Through experience its quite clear, that the practices faults and inperfections will become clear (if they have any) if you get deep enough into it. If you get deep enough into any practice you should outgrow your teacher, or worse, your teacher might refrain from teaching you anymore because you have become a person that could out grow him. (getting into the teachers own issues is a whole other story, i do not wish to venture in this subject but maybe on another post or forum if brought up or asked to me)

Thats your choice. You have the option to make that choice. My question for you is, do you feel you understand enough to make the smartest choice. Most people don't when making any choice that falls short of perfection. (Although perfection is completely a different subject.) Yes I understand the saying, "nothing is perfect" But thats not a reason to not strive for perfection in a heathy manner. Second thing I wanted to say is, from my understanding, the point of retention is to move towards being celibate. Which making the point to be celibate instead of retention. (speifically talking about what you call spirituality) I just think a lot of misconception is around rentetion and celibacy. The point or goal is to become (or work towards) being celibate and not to retain. You can move towards retaining while trying to become celibate but not just to get stuck on the feeling of retention. I am talking from personal experience of screwing up. (so keep in mind even though i'm no master, i did learn this the hard way, and could know just a tinny bit about it) Just my two cents, hopes it helps you or anyone else out... there is no reason to ever stop figuring out things you don't yet understand. (in a healthy way, or as healthy as possible)

I want to start off saying Intellectual understanding (or trying to understand something from a intellectual view point with no experiences is completely and utterly meaningless for you don't have any personal experience to base it on) So its completely empty or unless understanding on your part if you haven't experienced it. I read books (like things pretaining to things about Taoism) to understand what i couldn't put into words, or to get a better hold on what i experienced. But more importantly, i just don't realize it right away. I think about each exact sentance (I attempt this with good books, so every sentance is important) For a long period of time before my mind brings up, events that happened and felt that way. Sometimes i bring up things i had forgotten happened but only with hard thinking could I have remembered. That being said (warning: I haven't read this whole post and all the replys but...) The Opening of the Dan-Tien and different ways and so forth are pretty complicated. (So many ways to do something even with something so specific as the Dan-Tien) (This might be IMO because my view point is as of a novice, you know before I even become a beginner ) So what i'm trying to say to talk about something intellectually about such a broad thing, i kind of feel words are being lost or just empty in meaning, just never answering your question directly. It could also be a subject that starts many more new subjects. So I imagine this forum or topic, as long as you envest some time de_paradise, will turn into a dialogue. Changing from one thing to try and understand to another thing. (but only vaguely unless you have some speffic question thats not so broad) But i still hope you get your answer. Just my input to help you along your way to get your answers or what your interested in. Good Luck. After going over and reading a little more i found this... Artical or post was Extremely well said and explains a lot of something so general abotu transmition. Buddy I really like your thinking approach to how to get a good grasp of understanding something. Search for what something isn't to base what it cane be. For somethings (maybe all) we can't fully 100% understand them, but we can definately understand them much better and more indefinately when we understand the properities of what it is not, and what properities it shows in it. (It is the way i think about things to understand the properities it is not, then understand as many properities as that thing or event can have, and recongaise what it has. I find it much more usful then to understand what properities it has, then guess at what it can be, leads you to to many falsehoods, which lead you back to understand what that one something or event is not.)

Dao Zhen, thanks for the correction and proper teaching its always welcomed, I'm glad to see you haven't completely left the boards. Mal, well i agree with Taomeow here Jing = Vitality (yeah right i hate that translation it drives me bonkers, but i can see why the word Vitality was choosen) Qi = energy (yeah this one is a little better but still horrible imo) Shen = spirit (Yeah i think this is appropriate but thats mostly because I have no properly identified the traditional meaning of shen and the experience it refers to) In the words slightly offset but same meaning of Forest Gump, Labels are what labels do.

I enjoyed. Thank you.

Thanks for the response and for the clarification that your lineage is completely different then Mantak Chia's. Wow, I find that interesting. I would assume that there is some sort of misunderstanding upon the definition my teacher meant when he taught me such a thing. Whom else learned tongue positions and was it like mine or like Xuesheng was taught along with what Mantak Chia's teachings?