WhiteTiger

Agreed

Buddy I think we are having miscommunication here. A teacher if he or she is a good teacher, that has a significant mount of ability for what they are teaching. He or she can teach you the beginning of one thing. That one thing you should take home with you and practice to the full extent. As if you are expanding it to the fullest. But without knowing the next step or the next level you can not evolve with it. Grow or get better. You can attempt can do trial and error, which is most likely taking one of the most longest roads and that i don't recommend. But if you have a teacher to teach you the next step it is as exactly as Buddy explained. I think you have no teacher to teach your tai chi, the next level once you have completed the first one. I personally don't like Tai Chi teachers claiming to be teachers or masters when they don't teach Qi Gong as a part of it AND Nei Gong as a part of it. Thats why i started this conversation. It sounds to me, and i could be wrong but you didn't learn the Chi Gong in your Tai Chi or the Nei Gong. I've heard lots of stories like this, truly and honestly it saddens me.

You know your right. And I'm sorry I don't mean to be changing the subject all the time. Were talking about how to do a horse stance. You are right Practice as you know what is a horse stance and continue to do so under the guidance of a teacher. Then from there it should evolve. I was talking about a few different topics, (that might have come up related in the talks but was OFF TOPIC) one the way you train is what i got into lastly and that wasn't what this discussion was about. I'm sorry for that. Second i got into the the fact that if a person is spiritual and learned internal art from his spiritual teachers they know how to manipulate Yin, Yang, (more known in Tai Chi) and other elements within the body (more known in other internal martial arts) what is Gong Fu to you? They just movements? Just stances? Most of what i said isn't aimed at you. I was just saying to everyone that reads these things in general the points that are in caps are not me yelling but rather putting high emphasis into what I'm saying. The part where i said Internal arts i was aiming at you. just the idea i got from reading how you describe internal arts has a lot of misconceptions of understanding of internal arts. What information were you hoping to learn what interests you maybe I have some information on it maybe not. Most of what I'm currently speaking of I have a good conceptual understanding of. At the same time though almost all i have mentioned i have experienced to what degree is a different story and thus why i call myself just a student with low abilities and not much knowledge to offer compared to a teacher, and many many times less compared to a Master.

Then your system at the least be based on something great and must have some good knowledge! (its good to hear someone having such a positive envirement as this) Once you already have the foundation, you've learned the beginning, and need to go on to develop what you have. *I totally agree with you* I give my personal respect to, Oolong Rabbit and xuesheng for the great things they have said. Granted that should mean something not because I'm someone great, I'm nothing great at all. But that should mean something because I don't very easily give it out. For the others that have read this topic in the forum I hope if you have learned something if you felt like information here lead you to realize that your missing things in your Tai Chi practice will lead you to finding more information awareness, and will grow more. Mal, always nice to hear from you, I feel your a positive enforcement to the Tao Bums forums.

Have you done internal styles or Qi Gong exercises? Depending on the Qi Gong there for different reasons that help supplement what your doing. They serve a good purpose. Internal Martial Arts are martial arts. There not just spiritual cultivation. If you were to look for a internal martial artist, most likely they would teach you whatever they knew has a martial art. Most aren't spiritual. A teacher of mine once privately sent me this (buddhist cultivation) Once again Cultivation can be for combat or spiritual purposes. You have a misconception of what internal art is (i.e. what you said about XingYi, BaGua and you just said in this past post about "energy cultivation type i guess is more focussed on correct bodily alignment for proper energy flow") The main so called Buddhist methods are : 1. meditation 2. concentration 3. breath control 4. health nourishing 5. mental skills training 6. medical use 7. martial use 8. spiritual use That being said, anyone that has a great knowledge, awareness understanding for not just one exercise but a whole system they know for spiritual use they should have a great knowledge of how to use it for its martial use. Weather they teach or learned martial use is a different story altogether. The way I personally look at martial arts. There are three things you should work on, and the importance goes in this order to. One the art. It is artistic structure of the art itself. This is very important, if you have a stance you wanna practice it until it is as close to perfect as possible because its artistic trying to move in your form where you have almost perfect transitions. (lots of experts can generate great about of power, yet how perfect there transitions is questionable, yet at the same time no one will say anything because there understanding and there power generation is better then yours. Remember there fighters also, that are better then you. Would you ever say to an older master in there 80s that there stance is slightly off in this way when they transition... they might practice or demonstrate why it isn't, were i learn they would demonstrate on YOU. Well depends the intent of your question. To what level are they threating you abilities because they do if off a little. Well my point is your supposed to work for perfections its an art trying to do this takes time and you MUST LOOK INWARD FOR THIS! For a quick example, If they openly tell you or how power is generated, then you can work for perfecting that ability, not just by exercising muscle but utilizing your structure to the fullest extent, which is why it is an art getting this closest to perfection. But in many systems by perfecting the structure of your body more then just power is it determining, but also technique and if you read up on technique it involves more then just power. Two Relaxation or the grace involved. This comes through lots and lots of practice. This is no simple or easy thing task to fully complete. This means the effectiveness of your ability. because how smooth, graceful, and relaxed you are through each move. Its as if your a master making something look extremely easy. This coincides with some of the stuff Lao Tzu said. "The way is simple" Three Power. To learn to generate power better. I understand quit clearly that the longer i went down the list, i say less about it. why is this... well you should figure it out honestly. Why should you figure it out. well not everything is going to be handed to you on a silver plate. You must work for what you want to learn. Jakara, I think you should read the post I started about Tai Chi. You will most likely learn some great insight and also hopefully learning Tai Chi is also for Martial use! Just like Xingyi, and BaGua. Title name is Different teachings Taiji: http://www.thetaobums.com/different-teachi...aiji-t4404.html

I'm sorry if i came off a little mean. Now, i don't know this person. But from the looks of it she does some weight training, because it shows in her upper body. If she is training her upper body more then her stances then her stances will turn out worse. If she is training them side by side. Like I did originally your mabu will not evolve. sad but true Good point, I'm not helping out by bashing. I have spent some time writing a little something on the subject. hopfully i will post it soon. And searching over the internet for a good mabu... this might take me some time ROFL. ok: http://www.kampkunster.no/klubber/bergen-s....jpg/image_mini Is an alright example, he still has some stuff to work on. but it shows you the stance from only the front. his feet should be more parallel. this is a decent example because what he needs to change are much smaller adjustments but it is important specially that this is the foundation stance of almost all arts. His knees could be slightly closer in line with his Toes, but thats picking on him. He has some upper body tension, if he was flexing what looks to be bridge hands, that would explain why. From the looks of it he doesn't have any what they call lower back locked up. basically the lower lumbar muscles not tensed. It looks like his tail bone isn't tucked in... which is a really really big no no. We are talking specifically about stationary mabu. Any mabu moving or was moving into something else as slightly different circumstances which means the function of what your doing is much different there for it will be changed. For external martial arts that i learned. it shows good feel placement, for a stationary mabu for exercising, where it shows you the feet is good example. Yet from the structure of the drawing i can already realize how unrealistic compared to a real body, and doesn't give enough definition to look at but still the foot pattern gives you a good idea. (its maybe one degree inward to much, maybe a degree in a half or many 3degrees but degrees only have big effect over long distances as where this doesn't but trainning your body exactly like this isn't good) Which bring me to the idea GO GET A TEACHER TO TEACH you these things... much better. http://www.doppiofuoco.com/Res/Posizioni/3Mabu2.jpg As i start to explain these things i don't want you to think that it can be done with force or strong effort but over time of your body getting adjusted, in other words if you use force you can hurt yourself, or you can just start taking away your stance from in another place to make one place look good. This takes TIME PEOPLE! Practice and hard work. spent a good deal of time searching for these things... looking at stuff... i think i've gotten my point across. But me doing this is not better then learning from a teacher... to get an instructer really. REALLY!!! *Sigh* XingYi and BaGua are devistating internal martial arts. If you actually find a teacher that teaches this. can teach you the cultivation which most likely will be for combat! Because Xingyi was popularized by General Yue Fei when he taught his army the system. They changed it around a little is my understanding for teaching purposes but lots of the rediculously desvistating parts of it are still there. BaGua is similar, similar and said by legand to be equal to XingYi

YAY, its nice to see some people have proper understanding and experiences. well put. Yes i so many many problem within her stance. Gunna look up those names for pictures of good mabu might post ones i see that are good. Or even better yet might ask questions about them! omg, i love to learn! Where exactly is the the kwa the inguinal crease? I'm not familiarized wit this? from what art does neijia come from?

ROFL nice stance

I'm agreeing with you but what i'm saying is, how many people understand the difference between Qigong and taijiquan movements? If you claim Taijiquan is qigong, then can people understand that there is just more to the movements as they most likely have been learning. I think I am whipping a dead horse by now. So now that we have established Taiji is qigong or you should be doing more then just movements (so people whom only do movements can truly understand what there missing in learning) Then my questions is how good would Taijiquan be without Nei Gong?

Tingly skin -- bah i missed that symptom. Gee I feel dumb now

Pretty simple, if it passed away and you still have no symptoms, and your not sick at the time. Its pretty obvious that you switched from hot to cool way to fast, blood couldn't keep up help yourself fast enough. I'm sure through the hot bath you even got rid of some water in your system by sweating. Which made you have even worse symptoms and/or made you take a little longer to recover.

Sounds like you learn Chi Gong with your Tai Chi and tihs is very good. This Tai Chi video is an good example of Chi Gong and the Nei Gong that this Video has in it? Its a very good example from my limited understanding but yet has all the components that I was taught real Tai Chi has in it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6z0P2Pj6zA (this is a great video because it is meant to be watched by beginners, but everything you see this Master doing, he teaches to beginners. By the time you learn the first duan you will have a similar replica, as long as you put in hard work) The definition of Chi Gong = Energy Work. Sure Tai Chi is Energy work. But is there a specific exercise your doing while doing your Tai Chi. Do you incorperate more then just the movements of Tai Chi, the Yi or mind? Nei Gong the definition exactly I'm not sure exactly, but there is no difference between Nei Gong and Internal Alchemy from what i was taught. The English word for internal alchemy also resonates in understanding with many other cultures that have practiced interal alchemy but yet differently. More then just Buddhists, Taoists, and Hindu's This is where my knowledge lesses, including experiences and understanding of seeing energy work. The use of Bubbling well is used in Tai Chi. How about breathing techniques gives a feeling of inflating your body while doing Tai Chi? A friend of mine, who dabbles a little in Buddhism and Taoism told me that Buddha himself said to question things. Actually what I'm attempting to do is open peoples eyes up by explaining by questioning peoples beliefs if you find yourself questioning or not having answers for what i bring up then you should realize that you are missing information you hopefully want to learn. As long as your practicing to let go of your ego, i'm sure you can come to understand and respect the process. To me and my understanding of tai chi, Tai chi isn't tai chi without practicing Chi Gong and Nei Gong.

Well said! Yet i don't fully understand all of what you said. I agree with everything else. I would choose to say more directly if you have opened up certain channels, part way, It will be much easier to open them back again to the level you had them before beyond that it takes more effort for whatever reason you failed to put forth. If you have fully opened them fully you wouldn't be asking that question because you would have no worrying happening. If i understand what your asking then your talking about going against the Tao, not fully (can never be done fully) but yet still be in the Tao. From my proper understanding you must find another to put up with all this pain and still be in a relationship with you. This is not the way that Lao Tzu spoke of. I believe this does waste the life spand of your physical body. (when i say going against the Tao i don't mean going in opposite direction of the tao, yet while in the tao, going against its principles.) P.S. Honestly I don't believe i have a well enough understanding of hows the best way or the better way of explaining this without mis saying that is improper. My education in this area in weak in other words. Maybe if one is able to understand what i mean and reword it or maybe one is kind of get an idea for what I'm saying. I can and have seen this happen. I can conceptualize it, but lack the ability to fully verbally articulate it. Though i hope what I have said helps. If you think about this very hard. Or rather have a little insight to what is truly significant. This is a genius remark. I really do like it. Thanks for sharing!!! Thank you for saying this! Truly thank you for saying it!

Wow! bam! nicely put. In my prospective (no matter how narrow my knowledge in this area seems to be) there is no reason the price should be different. I'm sure many times they are different. I'm not doubting this. but to serve what new purpose thats different? In the end there is no special reason i truly believe. Its rather the fact that they can do it and get away with it, nicely and easily.

Anyone else have experiences like this? Damn... the thought of even going to china to learn under a teacher (whom i'm sure will not teach me very traditional stuff.) but the point is just to work your a$$ off as hard as possible and spend every waking moment practicing, refining, and growing, and understanding what is happening to the internal subtleties. Just for the sakes of proving you did the hard training program and fought you own mental, emotional, and physical obstructions that have created throughout your whole life. Yet, I still truly believe that you will not learn many or much traditional martial arts, and even if you do, no matter how complex and full the system it is. It will not be taught very deep, to the real systems heart from where it was originated from. What are other peoples experiences with it if they have actually gone to china just to learn a supposedly fantastic system, and spend all this money to learn it?

What system do you do?

IDK how correct this is. But i think it would be fun to do. I answered the stuff i got some wierd a$$ results. how did others do? http://www.eclecticenergies.com/chakras/chakratest.php

Mal, I'm really sorry to hear you say that. I hope you will one day redeem yourself.

Yep, some Taoist practices it also to similar or the same stuff

Ah, nice and i look up to you. For I have just a little here and there but ultimately not read much on Taoism but the little I have is the translations in english. Therefore my understandings might be weakly represented. meaning, my understanding the certain words and meanings in english when it doesn't exactly apply to the english dictionary as the verbatim, but yet similar. For example, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Fate Definition 1. and 3. are alright definitions but don't think it still does the word justice. The translation what i meant to talk about is "Ming" as Vortex as so well pointed out. Thanks Vortex for the translations I personally really appreciate information like that. It adds to my understandings and translations. What i was trying to point out is. If you yourself are part of the Ming of the teachers life, then the teacher isn't really a master. Or rather should I say he might be a teacher, might be a master, but he has not yet mastered Fate. I do strongly agree with Vortex and truly believe with 100% of my heart that Fate, or "Ming" is almost impossible to avoid and you it is as a stepping stone you must over come no matter how hard it is just to come closer to become more spiritual, or what i believe is roughly translated in english to become your destiny. Only my understandings from what I have studied and once again they are not very vast in knowledge.

So are you then claiming unless you have fate with a teacher then they basically will not teach you. I mean except for special circumstances?

Mind explaining "what having fate is in the daoist school" like i'm stupid. From my understanding your saying that if the fate of a person is good. Then a Taoist teacher will impart some methods to them. Meaning that the student themselves have great potential in them. But my understanding of Fate is Fate deters what your path, for a simple and easy example, like desire. Destiny is that which you must fulfill in this lifetime. It is believed your born with a task, or tasks. During your life, you must continually strive to identify it and complete it to its last detail. This is no simple errand. People take there whole life to do this. Then it gets into a discussion about Karma and past lives. The issue we talk about the complexities of transcending the consequences of past lives. Yeah anyway gets into a discussion I don't know enough about to want to start a topic about it. Now that i think more about it and the way your saying it are you saying if the person fate isn't so bad, that he has little to overcome to become a great student?

I never claimed I understood exactly what was happening to me. Nor did I say I fully understood what I was doing. I didn't know it was MCO and maybe it still isn't. (well from what i read it doesn't sound like it at all, it sounds like what i was doing was retaining and never got to the next step) Just expressed transmitions I had. Sure I would have to say thats very correct, i only knew bits and pieces. Also i wouldn't say my transmitions where in bits and pieces. I was transmitted properly, because what i was transmitted never failed to help me. I do got to admit by you pointing out a thing or two here and there, I have thought about it and realized, after humbling myself some more. That I had made some mistakes in my own practice. Thanks very much. Yet in the way that you pointed out those things, you did so in a way I don't very much care for the way you put things. And can you please not be so negatively inclined next time. You misunderstand what I'm saying. I never said that you get your Jing back. That same Jing is lost. or at least thats what i'm aware of. You just start the proccess of retention all over again. This discussion is boardering on stealing Jing or sharing Jing from another partner. which is something I truly don't believe in. Nor something i really wanna get into. 100% agree with changing the man's Psyche. I had to do much will power to do retention that takes lots and lots of effort over the many many days/weeks/months of practicing for hours on end. IDK what brahmacharya is, but for the retention alone. Agree 100% Once again I don't know what brahmacharya is but my thoughts exactly. It is impossible. At least thats what i believe.

What do you mean "feel no fate with you"? I believe there are some great orginizations out in Europe and some great martial art teachers out there. I've read a few of them online. As to being complete systems and so forth. I don't really do doubt it but i feel its much better then it is out in the U.S. maybe I'm just thinking that the grass is greener on the other side

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