oat1239

Emitting qi for healing purposes is not exclusively a Taoist practice, but since it is related I thought this video might be appropriate in this forum. If this is not appropriate for this forum, please feel free to move it. This is a demo of Dr Jiang Feng from China doing a demonstration of emitting qi from one of his fingers during an interview about his healing methods. Unfortunately the interview is in Mandarin but for those who can understand Mandarin you may find the whole video of Dr. Jiang's comments about his healing methods interesting, and those who can't speak mandarin will probably just want to watch the demo of the burning a hole in a sheet of paper by emitting qi from his finger, as the rest is just talking. The video is a bit long, so to go right to the part in the video where Dr. Jiang Feng does the qi emission demonstration of burning a hole through a sheet of paper, start watching the video at the 4:10 mark. It actually looks much like a laser was used to burn a hole in the paper and I am certain some people will be inclined to insist that this is fake and a laser was actually used to burn the hole in the sheet of paper, but comments I have seen from people who have visited Dr. Jiang Feng would seem to support that he really does have some extraordinary abilities with qi. Dr Jiang Feng calls his qigong style yijinjing qigong, but from what little I have seen it appears different than what you may have seen shaolin monks practicing, although it is supposed to be from the same source. Technically not a taoist practice, but some say the 8 pieces brocade was derived from the original yijinjing qigong method. Here's the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND5r3FxkZM8 This link should take you right to the 4:10 mark in the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND5r3FxkZM8&feature=player_detailpage#t=249s

Some interesting info here about the origins of modern day qigong that has become popularized in mainland China, and Hu Yaozhen had some very interesting things to say about the origins of what he called 'xin yi quan' (as opposed to xing yi quan) and the origin of tai ji quan and the origin of taoist inner cultivation practices. Unless I misunderstood something here, it would seem that Hu Yaozhen had Lao Zi passing taoist inner cultivation practices on to the Yellow Emperor through Guang Cheng Zi, although the Yellow Emperor is thought to have lived around 2696–2598 BCE. Maybe someone can explain this? Hu Yao Zhen & Hunyuan Origin 胡耀貞& 混元渊源 By Yaron Seidman DAOM ( excerpted from: http://hunyuaninstitute.com/huandhunyuan.pdf ) Hu Yao Zhen 胡耀貞 Hu Yaozhen （1897—1973） was born in Yuci county, Shan Xi province. Since early childhood studied medicine and martial arts. In his earlier years he studied with Daoist master Peng Tingjun 彭庭隽 Dao cultivation, inner cultivation, six harmonies heart mind boxing and Hua Tuo Five Frolics. Later on he studied from Xin Yi master Dai Wenjun 戴文俊, from Yuan Xiuchen 袁秀臣 he studied Zi Lu style of Taijiquan and from a Buddhist monk name Li Hong 立宏 studied Buddhist cultivation skills and Zhuang Zi ‘exhaling the old inhaling the new’ cultivation method 吐呐法. Master Hu was a life long Chinese medicine doctor, a Qigong healer extraordinaire and a one of a kind martial artist. In 1953 he established with his martial art friend, 17th generation lineage holder of Chen family Taijiquan, Chen Fake the ‘Capitol (Beijing) Martial Arts Society’. Despite being an extraordinary martial artist, often called a 拳神 martial art spirit and 单指震乾坤 ‘with one finger the one who shakes heaven and earth’, Hu’s greatest contribution to the world was his art of Qigong. In 1956 he was the first and only one in Beijing to establish a Qigong hospital. It is little known yet interesting fact that because of him and selected others like Liu Guizhen 刘贵珍 and Liu Duzhou 刘渡舟 that the name Qigong became widely accepted by millions and millions of people practicing it today. Hu is named the father of modern day Qigong. Out of his many disciples the most accomplished being Feng Zhiqiang 冯志强, Jiao Guorui 焦国瑞, Qin Zhongsan 秦重三 and Li Jingwu 李經梧. Bei Dai He Qigong Symposium (A personal account by Zhang Tiange 張天戈) In October 1959 Hu Yaozhen was invited to the ‘First Entire China Qigong Experience Sharing and Symposium’ 全国气功工作经验座谈会及学术交流会 in Bei Dai He 北戴河, a coastal town in north eastern China, between Tian Jin and Liao Ning. This symposium ordered by the Chinese government had the goal of “revealing all secrets” and making them available to the people. At that time the newly communist China has slightly shifted its attitude from ‘banning the old’ to ‘using the old knowledge to benefit the people’. The symposium had an odd structure, it was 15 days long and covered many different topics from Qigong to Buddhism, Daoism, inner cultivation, medicine etc. The number of participants was especially large as doctors, healers and practitioners from all across China were dispatched to this sponsored event. In the symposium first few days the discussion topics were as follows: 1. Openly exchange experience of treating disease with Qigong. 2. Report Qigong treatment of chronic and hard to treat diseases. 3. Analysis of Qigong clinical applications. 4. Discussion on Qigong healing mechanism. 5. Demonstrations and introduction to different kinds of Qigong “bringing the secrets out” (took place on day 6). On the seventh day the focus fell on the group of representatives from Shan Xi province, amongst which Hu was. While several masters performed and explained Hu Yaozhen remained silent as if not to belittle any of the presenters. The meeting committee has asked Hu’s disciple Qin Zhongsan to bring out his “general” master Hu. Qing Zhongsan, even though a disciple, was older in age than Hu and was a ranking officer in the communist liberation army, and so he was invited first to demonstrate. After demonstrating in detail how he learned from his master Zhan Zhuang Gong (standing post cultivation) he retired. Hu was still sitting on the sidelines quiet. The committee and the crowd were awaiting him to “reveal his secrets” and to confess his wrongdoing and to allow “better” people to point out corrections. At this time Hu refuted his wrong doing (as was expected from all participants) and explained that he wasn’t a Daoist recluse, but rather he was only practicing Qigong and inner cultivation in order to correct his wrong ways. For so many days Hu was not talking at all, but now as he began he was explaining what Qigong and inner cultivation were for an entire day. The supervisors and communist party leaders were so impressed and motivated that they set up especially for him a performance stage where he could demonstrate his Qigong and inner cultivation skills as well as martial arts. During this day it was already decided by the committee that Hu’s “Qigong” teachings and explanations will be immediately published by the department of health to benefit the people. Within one month the book ‘Qigong’ was published by the Department of Health Publishing House. Such a quick publication by the communist government of that time was hardly ever seen. This thin booklet with only 36,000 characters of course did not reveal the depth of Hu’s Qigong, yet it spread the practice of Qigong throughout the country like wild fire. The art of Qigong never died in China much in gratitude to Hu’s contribution. Among his works are Qigong, Qigong and Preserving Health Cultivation, Wu Ji Acupuncture and Five Frolics Qigong. He was often titled 妙手神医 Miraculous Hand Spirit Doctor. According to oral transmission, prior to the communist revolution of 1949, Hu was the only Chinese medicine doctor and Qigong healer in Beijing allowed into western style hospitals to treat foreigners. His skill was so impressive that he could heal broken bones within one day using Qigong therapy. Hu Yaozhen’s Preface to Qi Gong & Preserving Health Gong, published 1959. 胡耀贞自序 Preface 气功疗法是我们祖国医学宝贵医学遗产之一，已 有悠久的历史。这种疗法具有却病、防病、健 身、延年的作用。过去佛道两家称它为“静功”， 拳家称为“内功”。据说这种功夫是老子传下来 的。老子先传给广成子，广成子又传给黄帝。 所以在黄帝内经里有按摩、导引及其它养生益 寿的方法。 Qigong healing is one of China’s inherited medical treasures. It has a very long history. This treatment modality can cure disease, prevent disease, keep the body healthy and prolong life. In the past Buddhists and Daoists named it Jing Gong (stillness cultivation) while martial artists named it Nei Gong (inner cultivation). It is said that Lao Zi transmitted this kind of cultivation. Lao Zi transmitted it to Guang Cheng Zi and Guang Cheng Zi transmitted it to the yellow emperor. As a result in the Yellow Emperor Neijing there is An Mo massage, Dao Yin exercises and other nurturing life and benefiting longevity exercises. 我从十六岁开始学医、学拳、学道（道家的练功 方法）。我应用的针灸也是从道家的“无极针灸”。 所谓“无极针灸”就是以术者自身的“精气神”扎针 的功夫。扎针时用补泄手法，病人在体内会产生 麻热、凉胀等不同感觉，而且遍及全身。这种针 法是利用气功的功夫进行的。为了学习气功， 在漫长的旧社会里，我曾拜了许多老师，访过许 多朋友。 From age 16 I began my study of medicine, martial arts and Daoism (Daoist cultivation methods). My style of acupuncture is also derived from the Daoist ‘Wu Ji Acupuncture’. The art of Wu Ji Acupuncture is the art of using one’s own essence, Qi and spirit and apply it while pricking with needles. When pricking and using tonification and sedation methods the patient feels inside his body numbing heat, or cool distension spreading all over the body. This kind of acupuncture is carried out by using Qigong. In order to study Qigong, during the prolonged times of the old society, I have asked to study with many teachers and visited many friends. 我的老师彭庭俊（霍成光老道的门徒）传授给我 道功、内功、心意拳和华佗五禽戏。以后又拜 山西崇善寺“立宏和尚”为师，他传给我佛家的 练功方法。此外，我还学习过庄子的“吐纳法”。 My teacher Peng Tingjun (a disciple of the old Daoist recluse Huo Chengguang) transmitted to me Dao cultivation, inner cultivation, heart mind boxing and Hua Tuo’s five frolics exercises. Later on I became a disciple of the monk Li Hong from Shan Xi’s Chong Shan monastery. He transmitted to me the Buddhist cultivation methods. In addition I also learned 'Zhuang Zi exhaling old and inhaling new’ method. 拳功主要是来自三个方面： 1、心意拳：心意拳始于达磨，传给岳飞，岳飞 死后，姬隆风在终南山墙里发现岳飞遗留下来 的拳谱，后来悟透其中道理，习练成功。以后 姬隆风又传给山西祁县戴龙邦之子戴文俊。我 就是和戴家后代及其门徒车子方学习的，并得 到了心意拳谱。 2、太极拳：太极拳最早始于“子路太极”。子 路是孔门弟子，姓仲名山。经子路传于杨清 天，杨清天又传于高士基，以后陆续下传， 一直传到袁秀臣。我学的子路太极就是袁秀 臣传下来的。后来，我又和张庆霖老师学习 过“杨家太极拳”。张老师在太极拳方面曾受 过黄山老道的传授。我得到黄山老道的太极 内功谱，以后受益很大。 3、八卦拳：我学的八卦拳也是属于心意拳的 一部分。此拳始于达摩，以后陆续相传，一 直迄今。我练八卦拳是从太原穆修易老师那 里学习的，穆老师也是心意拳的先辈。 My martial art skill comes from three directions: 1. Xin Yi Quan: Xin Yi Quan started from Da Mo (Bodhidharma), and transmitted to Yue Fei(Song dynasty general, model of patriotism for his stand against the Jin invaders). After Yue Fei’s passing, Ji Longfeng discovered buried in a wall in Zhongnan mountain the martial art classic Yue Fei left. Thereafter he got enlightened with its principle, he practiced until reaching an accomplishment. Following that, Ji Longfeng transmitted the art to Dai Longbang’s son from Shanxi’s Qi county Dai Wenjun. I studied with the Dai family and the disciples of its school and so attained the Xin Yi Quan classic. 2. Tai Ji Quan: Tai Ji Quan earliest origins are with Zi Lu Tai Ji. Zi Lu is one of Confucius disciples, his last name Zhong while his first Shan. From Zi Lu it was transmitted to Yang Qingtian, Yang Qingtian transmitted to Gao Shiji and so transmitted on and on until Yuan Xiuchen. I studied Zi Lu Tai Ji with Yuan Xiuchen. Thereafter I also studied Yang style Tai Ji Quan with Zhang Qinglin. Master Zhang for his Tai Ji Quan received transmission as well from a Daoist priest in Huang Shan mountain. I attained the Tai Ji inner cultivation classic of the Huang Shan Daoist priest and with that the benefits I received were great. 3. Ba Gua Quan: The kind of Ba Gua Quan I studied also belongs to Xin Yi Quan. This martial art started with Da Mo and thereafter transmitted on and on until today. The Ba Gua I practice is from master Mu Xiuyi of Tai Yuan. Master Mu is also an older generation of Xin Yi Quan. 四十多年来，我一直从事中医工作，业余的时 候练拳，练功也从未间断过。实践证明，拳功 和内功对我的医术很有帮助，特别是华佗的五 禽戏，无论是对我的静功、拳功和医术方面， 更有较好的帮助。我的老师把五禽戏谱传给我 之后，从未发表过，一俟抽出时间经过整理再 另册发表（其它如心意谱、太极谱、买庄图心 意拳谱、保健延年法等，也陆续整理发表）。 For 40 years now I have carried the practice of medicine without interruption. In my spare time I practiced martial arts. The practice of inner cultivation was as well never interrupted. The testimony of time shows that my practice of martial arts and inner cultivation helped my practice of medicine greatly, especially so was my practice of Hua Tuo’s five frolics exercises. Regardless if it is my stillness cultivation, martial cultivation or medicine skills it helped in all directions. My teacher gave me the classic of the five frolics exercises and it was never published. As time becomes available I’ll arrange it and publish in a separate booklet (others like Xin Yi classic, Tai Ji classic, Mai Zhuang Tu Xin Yi Quan classic, preserving health and prolonging life methods etc, one after the other I will arrange and publish). 我们祖国有悠久的历史，历代人民在与疾病作 争方面积累了相当丰富的经验。中国医家、拳家 和儒释道三家，都各有一套养生方法。 China has a very long history. Throughout the ages people struggled with disease and the experience accumulated is great. Chinese medicine doctors, martial artists as well as Confucians, Buddhists and Daoists all have their methods of nurturing life. 四十多年来，在练功学拳方面，我曾经走过许 多弯路，也吃过不少苦头。如上各家的练法， 我是先后都练过（虽然还没有练好）。通过 曲折的实践和漫长的认识过程，我开始找到一 些练功的规律，特别是“静”和“动”的规律。根 据这种规律，又结合拳的内功，综合了一种 “静动气功”的练法。这种练法就是目前我们在 临床上用以治病的主要方法。 In 40 years of practicing martial arts and inner cultivation I certainly walked a round-about way and also experienced great hardship. The above mentioned arts I have practiced throughout (even though never practiced well). Through the grinding work and the long process of cognition I began seeking out the rules of practicing cultivation, especially the rules for “stillness” and “movement”. Based on these rules plus integrating it with martial art inner cultivation that I synthesized a kind of “Stillness and Movement Qigong” practicing method. This kind of practicing method is what we currently use in clinic to treat patients. 解放后，在共产党和毛主席的正确领导下， 气功在临床治病方面得到了推广，并获得了很 大的成效。我们门诊部，从1956年应用气功治 病以来，已对一些比较难治的慢性病，如胃及 十二指肠溃疡、胃下垂、慢性肝炎、肝硬变、 神经衰弱及心脏病等，获得了较好的效果。在 提高医疗效果上起到了一定作用。 After liberation, through the correct instruction of the communist party and chairman Mao, the application of Qigong healing in clinic got popularized and reached great results. Our clinic since 1956 utilizing Qigong therapy attained good success with treating difficult to treat chronic diseases such as duodenal ulcers, stomach prolapse, chronic hepatitis, liver cirrhosis, neurasthenia and heart disease. It has a definite action in improving the curative effect. 我的思想认识，是在党的领导和教育下，经过 各个阶段的运动，逐步有所提高。在党的鼓足 干劲，力争上游，多快好省地建设社会主义总 路线的光辉照耀下，我和全国人民一样，也在 欢欣鼓舞的工作着，逐渐将各种练功方法传授 给患者，以提高疗效。尤其在今年10月份出 席了北戴河气功交流经验大会，由于直接受到 大会党组织无微不至的照顾和关怀，及与会同 志们的爱戴，使我万分感激，也给我极大鼓舞。 因此，回京后下决心， 无保留地将我所知道的气功疗法中从前没有教授过 练功方法，记述出来，以便大家参考和运用。 I recognize that under the leadership and education of the party, through the different arrangement steps, progressively there is an improvement. Under the party’s utmost effort and striving for progress, to achieve greater, faster, better and more economical results for constructing socialism, the glory of this general line shines down, for me and for the entire people likewise all elated by this work, gradually to take these practicing cultivation methods and transmit to patients in order to increase the curative effect. Especially after attending Bei Dai He’s Qigong Experience and Exchange Conference in October this year, in which I received direct and meticulous loving care from the organizing committee, and much respect from the other comrades that I feel extremely grateful and inspired. Therefore after coming back to Beijing that I decided not to keep any secrets of whatever I know about Qigong healing, and whatever previously cultivation methods I did not teach. I record and narrate them here in order to allow everyone to consider and use them. 相信在党的领导下，气功疗法，经过大家的研 究和整理，一定会更好地为社会主义建设服务。 限于时间，我们还没有把更多的练法和内容介 绍出来，也没有在理论问题上作更多的研究。 俟再版时另行补充。 Believing in the leadership of the party, Qigong healing undergoing research and arrangement by everyone, certainly can be more beneficial for constructing a service for socialism. As there is a time constraint, we still didn’t bring out other exercise methods and content, and from the theory aspect also didn’t explore farther. I’ll await the second printing of the book to supplement it. 为向国庆十周年献礼，写这本小册子，动手仓 促，特别是限于个人水平，其中缺点和错误一 定不少，敬请中西医专家及广大读者惠予指正。 1959年11月于北京胡耀贞 For the tenth year anniversary of our country I wrote this small booklet, the hand moved hastily and especially because my level is limited, that in it the deficiencies and errors are certainly many, I respectfully invite doctors of east and western medicine and the general public to kindly correct me. November 1959 in Beijing. Hu Yaozhen <Some further info on Hunyuan and related concepts from Yaron Seidman's article>: Hunyuan 混元 《繫辭上- Xi Ci Zhuan》易有太極，是生兩儀 ，兩儀生四象，四象生八卦，八卦定吉凶，吉 凶生大業。 Change has Taiji, this creates the two forces, two forces create the four aspects, four aspects create the eight trigrams, eight trigrams determine good or evil, good or evil create the grand business (of life). Kong Yida 孔穎達 (574AD-648AD) writes in ‘Book of Changes True Meaning’: 太极谓天地未分之前，元气混而为一，即太初、太一也。 Taiji is the time where heaven and earth did not separate yet. The Yuan 元 (original) Qi was Hun 混 (mixed) into one. It is the ultimate beginning, it is the ultimate oneness. 混元既分，即有天地,故曰太極生兩儀 When Hunyuan separates, immediately there is heaven and earth, therefore it is said Taiji gives birth to two forces. 《呂氏春秋- Lü Shi Chun Qiu 大樂》 太一出兩 儀，兩儀出陰陽。陰陽變化，一上一下，合而 成章。渾渾沌沌，離則復合，合則復離，是謂天常。 From ultimate oneness come out two forces. From two forces come out Yin Yang. Yin Yang change and transform, one above one below, they join into one whole and become one entity. In a pre-separation state, when separating it comes back together again, and when coming back together it separates again. This is called heaven constant 天常. This is Hun Yuan 混元. -

Maybe he is a student of Shi Delon? Shi Delon does that sort of thing in the UK. http://www.shaolin.org.uk/en/chikung/

The topic of spontaneous movement qigong was brought up in another thread regarding the Kunlun book. I don't want to take that thread off topic so I am starting a new thread on this instead. Is spontaneous movement qigong a good way to release energy and emotional blockages and imbalances or are people just opening themself up to negative influences? If a person didn't know what they were seeing in these videos they might well be inclined to assume mental illness or strong negative influence. Even someone who knows what they are seeing may still be inclined to think that this is some sort of strong negative influence. Anybody here have personal experience with Shi DeLon and his spontaneous movement qigong? Anybody have definite negative experiences with spontaneous five animal qigong practices? I must say I don't know what to make of this sort of practice. This sure is some very strange stuff. Shaolin Qigong teacher Shi DeLon (based out of the UK). Shaolin qigong qi emssion and spontaneous movement five animals qigong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3uo7_lhWpw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY-zxzFoyAA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDXknbPPfVw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL This guy (a muslim) came to the conclusion that this sort of spontaneous practice (and even all qigong) is due to the influence of negative spirits or 'jinns'. His point of view seems biased as he tends to lump all qigong together, but he did describe a very negative personal experience here. I don't necessarily either agree or disagree with his conclusions but his experience is worth taking into consideration. Strange stuff. Danger of Chi -

Hi Old Green. Thanks for your feedback. It would seem that at least some people are inclined to lump all 'spontaneous movement qigong' into the same pile, but I am still inclined to wonder if there are not at least some notable differences between the different forms/styles. I am hoping that someone who has studied directly with Shi DeLon, or with a very similar form/approach/style (see the videos), will show up and comment on their experiences with this type of spontaneous movement qigong and related practices. Shi DeLon's form/style seems to evoke a very strong catharsis type reaction in at least some people, so it would be interesting to get the perspective from people who have experienced this directly as well. I wonder if students of Shi DeLon who have experienced this directly find the results to be beneficial in both the short term and the long term. It is one thing to produce some interesting effects in the short term, but whether it produces benefits that last or increase over the long term would be interesting to know. Maybe one day I will have the opportunity to visit the teacher/school and speak to people there directly, if the group is still active.

Those are definitely very interesting results. Something like this still has to undergo a lot of scrutiny from the scientific community to see if the results will stand up to inspection, and ideally these results would need to be shown to be independently replicable. It will likely take some time: Antonio Ereditato, a spokesman for Opera, made it clear that while the team had looked hard for any measurement errors or other mistakes that could explain it, and found none, the results still needed careful checking: After many months of studies and cross checks we have not found any instrumental effect that could explain the result of the measurement. While OPERA researchers will continue their studies, we are also looking forward to independent measurements to fully assess the nature of this observation. The Cern research director, Sergio Bertolucci, followed up with a similar comment: When an experiment finds an apparently unbelievable result and can find no artefact of the measurement to account for it, its normal procedure to invite broader scrutiny, and this is exactly what the Opera collaboration is doing, its good scientific practice." "If this measurement is confirmed, it might change our view of physics, but we need to be sure that there are no other, more mundane, explanations. That will require independent measurements. At least one physicist, John P. Costella, Ph.D. from Melbourne, Australia, is already stating that the result is based on a statistical calculation error (PDF file): "I explain why today's claim of the OPERA group at CERN for having measured faster-than-light neutrinos is based on an incorrect statistical calculation." Why CERNs claims for faster-than-light neutrinos is wrong This will likely remain a hot debate item for quite some time to come. It will be interesting to see if the results can hold up to intense scrutiny from the scientific community.

You seem very sure that you know all the different possibilities and permutations. I remain not so sure.

Very interesting folks, the Kelloggs. Coincidentally, an acquaintence of mine mentioned to me last week that he had grown up as a Seventh-day Adventist and that he did not drink, smoke, or eat any red meat until he was an adult. Prior to that I had heard of the name Seventh-day Adventist but had never met anyone who was a member, nor did I know anything about what Seventh-day Adventist actually was other than being some sort of religion or church.

I see. Thanks for the comments. It's good to hear different perspectives and experiences.

Hi Friend. I already have described it somewhat. My experience is mainly with taoist stillness meditation and some forms of tai chi and qigong. These days I am mainly practicing a system of taoist cultivation practice that mainly involves various standing postures, bagua circle walking, and sitting meditation. I have never practiced any forms of spontaneous movement qigong, but I am interested in learning more about them. I too have been told by some of my teachers that one should not intentionally pursue spontaneous movement in qigong, but these teachers were not teaching a system of qigong that specifically promotes spontaneous movement, although some mentioned that some spontaneous movement might sometimes arise. The stillness meditation starts with very little and leads to less and less.

I was just thinking that labels are only labels for convenience but the label doesn't change what is being labelled. Maybe I am wrong however. It has been noted that how we look at or approach things can somtimes at least change the very nature of how the thing appears, or at least it changes our interaction with that thing. For example, light can be demonstrated to be both a particle (photon) or a wave depending on how the experiment is constructed. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states something like that the more certain we know the position of a subatomic particle the less certain we can know its momentum and vice versa. So, the more we focus on one aspect, the more uncertain we will be able to determine the other aspect. If labels tend to encourage a particular focus then maybe they do affect the outcome. So maybe I am wrong. On the other hand, maybe I didn't follow what you were saying at all. They tend to put a lot of salt in cereal, and they sometimes also put a lot of sugar as well. The preservatives they put are probably not so good as well. Tony the Tiger was greaaaaaat. I always liked shredded wheat and corn flakes but the additives mentioned are probably not good for you. These days I prefer real oatmeal without sugar or salt. A good wholesome food.

My experience is not all approaches are the same. Each has its own natural way or natural cycle, but not all are the same. In some cases movement might arise and fall and continue to cycle and in some cases one only knows less and less.

Hi special -K-. Sure, labelling something one way or another doesn't change how it interacts or how it affects us and vice versa, but it can help to make a distinction between different things that work in different ways. Running and jumping for example may have a lot of common principles behind them such as leg movement and flexing of muscles and that sort of thing, but they can help us achieve different things. If someone needs to get over an obstacle on the ground they might try jumping over it if it is not too large, but if a wild tiger is attacking them they might want to try running instead of jumping. Sometimes you probably would want to use a combination of the two for best results. Although things can appear similar, they may produce quite different results. This is why I am hesitant to lump all spontaneous movement qigong into one, and am also hesitant to jump to conclusions about any form of it despite what it might look like on the surface.

Hey, no worries. I appreciate the feedback. I am wondering what lead you to the conclusion that is is definitely harmful to the qi and that any healing is not due to improved qi flow or the release of blockages? I am not saying I think you are necessarily not right, but just want to know what lead you to your conclusion?

I have experienced strong shaking of muscles or in the dantian area and that sort of thing when internal energy is moving within, and I have seen one of my teachers practicing an advanced form of internal qigong that moved him through various postures and movements while he was in a deep meditative state, but his movements were serene and controlled and methodical and cyclical. Not at all like the frantic type of movements and reactions shown by many in the videos I posted here. This is really something quite different than I personally have ever witnessed before. It really seems to me that not all spontaneous movement qigong or spontaneous movements in qigong is the same. What the exact differences are I wouldn't know however. Thanks for the reply.

Hi Friend. I can't tell from your reply if you watched any of the videos I posted or not, or if you have direct experience with the type of sponataneous movement qigong that is shown in those videos? The videos show something quite beyond a person just having some occasional or minor spontaneous movement. Many of these people seem to move around very frantically or strenuosly and some make all kinds of screaming and groaning noises or start crying or laughing, and that sort of thing. Some go into spontaneous five animal form movements which are supposed to be connected with cleansing and balancing of the five elements/organs, as shown in the first video. I personally am not so sure that we can lump all spontaneous movement qigong practices into one. The claim is made in the videos that it is helping for clearing energy and emotional blockages and that sort of thing, so it may have its place and purpose in the overall grand scheme of things, if true. I still can't be sure what to make of this sort of practice.

I wonder if we should be putting all spontaneous movement qigong in the same boat? I think it was the first video where some of the students gave first hand accounts of getting healed or getting improvement with various health problems or drug addiction problems. Whatever is going on, some students of the form taught in the videos claim to derive benefit from it.

Don't know. It appears that sometimes they use someone to catch people and sometimes they don't. Maybe it depends on how experienced the student is or what exactly is being done at the time?

No worries, HNJT. I sometimes experience muscle shaking and twitching and that sort of thing, but I have never had my whole limbs or my whole body flailing around like is shown in these videos. This is really quite something else to what I have ever experienced or seen. I wonder if anyone here has any direct experience with the sort of five animal spontaneous qigong that is shown in these videos? Did you practice long term? What were your experiences over time?

Hi 'Hot Nirvana Judo Trend. Ok, the people doing the movements in the videos I posted above are not consciously moving at all from what is described and they are supposed to be going into some sort of REM-like or trance-like state as well. Not sure that would be exacrly the same as what you described. I personally would want to learn a lot more about the background and theory of this sort of practice before ever trying it, after seeing these videos, and I wouldn't want to try the sort of thing that is shown in the videos without the guidance of a teacher I really trusted. If I was closer to Shi DeLon (the UK) I would drop in and meet him and try to learn more, but he is quite far away. If I get the opportunity sometime I will definitely try to meet him and learn more about his five animal spontaneous qigong and other qigong.

Something like this would be hard for others who don't know you well and who can't interact with you in person to assess. You have previously mentioned feeling pressure from energy in your head or something like that. What all have you been practicing exactly? Explaining this could well be of help. Here is my initial impression for what it is worth. What you are experiencing may posssibly be due to the effect of energy imbalances affecting your mind or your thinking. You wouldn't necessarily be able to recognize this for what it is if this is the situation. You can try sitting and relaxing completely while holding the palms of your hands over top of each other and facing inward over your navel area. Breath deep and relaxed and slowly through the nose and imagine any excess energy in your body gently finding its way back to your center area where it will be safely stored. You can also imagine that you are drifting in a small boat on a large calm and peaceful lake on a peaceful lazy day with your body feeling very calm and peaceful while you hold your palms over your center area. In these sorts of situations, using imagination in this way can help return excess energy to your center and could help balance things out if you are experiencing the effect of internal energy imabalance. Stopping any other meditation or qigong or other related practices in the mean time is probably a very good idea as well.

People often throw terms like qigong master and taoist or buddhist master around but that is really open to interpretation on a case by case basis. Regarding appearance, there are forms of internal qigong which cause changes in the body to occur over time and which may look to someone who is not familiar with this sort of thing like the person is out of shape or unhealthy, although in fact they may actually be in quite good health overall. The term qigong master is really often just used as a term nowadays to indicate that someone teaches qigong and doesn't necessarily mean that they are at a high level, although they may like to present them self that way. In my experience a lot of what people teach nowadays is often some modernized derivation of just some small part of an older traditional system or small parts of different systems, or is actually a relatively new practice altogether that may also have a lot of other unrelated stuff thrown in from many sources, even though the teacher may insist they are teaching some authentic system. That is not necessarily bad, but if the teacher is not completely open about what exactly they are teaching and where all of it really comes from then you have to wonder what they are up to. IMO, Qigong Master and Taoist Master or Buddhist Master are often just terms that many people use these days to help draw in business. So anyway, it should not be too surprising that some very unhealthy looking people may refer to themselves as qigong masters or taoist or buddhist masters or whatever. Also some traditional systems such as buddhism or some forms of taoism may focus more on cultivating true nature or spirit and give less importance to the body. Something doesn't have to be traditional or old to be beneficial, but often what is being taught is only a small part of what a complete system would traditionally contain and also may have a lot of questionable things mixed in as well. I think where some people may get thrown off is that a given teacher may teach some qigong forms or practices that are quite helpful, so the student may be inclined to assume that everything else the teacher is teaching is also good and complementary , but that may not really be the case. If something doesn't seem right somehow then the use of discernment is probably a good idea, IMO.

I was curious about the Eckankar group several years ago so I did some research into it. Its history is quite a messy story. The group was started in the early 60's by a guy named Paul Twitchell who claimed to be one of a long line of 'Eck Masters' who are here to teach spiritual cultivation according to this tradition. Twitchell went on to write various books on 'Eckankar', some of which were used as this group's primary religious teachings. Later on some members of this group noticed that some of the writings in these books by Twitchell were identical in large sections to earlier writings by a guy named Julian Johnson. A university student later investigated this further and found that the plagiarisms in some of Twitchell's books were actually quite extensive. Some of the main books that were plagiarized from were books by a guy named Julian P. Johnson who had studied Sant Mat (specifically 'Radha Soami') in India and wrote extensively about this and his experiences. At the time I was looking into Eckankar, I obtained copies of a few of Twitchell's books in question and compared to a couple of Julian Johnson's books ('With a Great Master in India' and 'The Path of the Masters') and confirmed for myself that there were in fact extensive plagiarims made by Twitchell from these writings, and I have seen evidence posted by others that Twitchell also plagiarized works from various other authors such as Kirpal Singh, Lama Govinda, Walter Russell, L. Ron Hubbard, H. P. Blavatsky, Alan Watts, etc. It would seem that Twitchell, who was once a follower of L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology), used various esoteric books available at the time as a source to help write his own religion writings. Twitchell's writings appear to draw heavily from Julian Johnson's descriptions of Radha Soami, but also seem to have a lot other stuff thrown in from some of the other authors mentioned. At the time Twitchell did this, most people in the West knew next to nothing about Eastern religions and related, so Twitchell's writings probably seemed unique and mysterious to many followers joining the group, but in later years as more and more people began to read up more on such things they began to find numerous similarities and plagiarisms (some were extensive) made by Twitchell from other books. There were a number of people who left Eckankar when this was discovered, but some members stayed on and continued to downplay these significant plagiarisms. There used to be a number of personal accounts on line by former members of this group regarding this and other things that went on in Eckankar, but I don't know if all these accounts are still around on the net. Since your father is apparently interested in this group, you may not want to mention this stuff to him unless you check into the details for yourself first and confirm what information is still out there on this, but I can confirm that I did personally compare a few of Twitchell's books with Julian Johnson's writings and I did find quite extensive word for word plagiarisms by Twitchell from Johnson's books. The other information you may find is based on accounts by various former members of this group, so that is much harder to confirm as fact. You may want to think carefully about mentioning any of this to your father if you think it might strain relations between you.

Hi AЯAB. I am sure you have thought a lot of this through already, but here's some more thoughts. Doing electrician work is actually a very good trade if you can get used to the work. You can make very good money at it once you have a few years solid experience at it. Depending on the company you work for, you don't necessarily have to work long hours. For example, commercial/industrial electricians may work set shifts. Also, don't kid yourself. An electrician is definitely a skilled trade. Once you get certified you would be in demand (unless the economy completely tanks, but even that is usually temporary). Anyway you quit so it sounds like you don't like that sort of work. Another option you mentioned is to upgrade or finish your high school courses. A year and a half to finish or upgrade high school courses is not that long at all when you are only 18, and you can probably still get enrolled now. It will go by in a relative flash. If you finish high school you could decide your options for college or university. If you don't like heavy math stay away from engineering. Computer programming can pay very well if a person gets a degree and likes that sort of thing. If you aren't the techie type then you can think about whether you are more interested in things like business or arts or things like a physio-therapist or chiropractor or TCM specialist, etc. Lots of options when you are still young.