onebir

Not offended! Just wondering if the non-Chinese readers might feel left out... (But then I replied in Chinese anyway ) Perhaps we should translate the Chinese?

That's a fair point. And it goes double for their patients, who they'd be seeing the effects in. How do we know? Even if it was the case when these practices were invented, it might not be now, because lifestyles have changed, people have different diets, are exposed to more & different pollutants, the practices have moved outside the monastery, practioners are less closely supervised... This implies someone has to be doing it properly to avoid problems. How can they be sure this is the case? The evidence on priests etc suggests it entails some risks. There doesn't seem to be any solid evidence on the extent cultivation offsets these risks - and probably never will be, because it's not really the kind of thing that's easily researched. And most people couldn't be 100% sure they're cultivating properly anyway. Given the information available it seems impossible to deny that retention involves some risk. However, so do most human activities. They may not be large risks, particularly if it's done right. And the benefits probably mean the risks are worth taking...

Several doctors here in China have told me that low ejaculation frequency can cause or exaccerbate prostatitis. And I found western research showing Catholic priests or monks have more problems in this area. (I can try to find it again if anyone's interested.) You could claim western research has a cultural bias. But I think for Chinese docs - who've been trained in a medical system with Daoist roots, based on the concepts that give rise to the idea that seminal retention can be beneficial - that's a harder claim to make. The symptoms of prostatitis can be pretty vague - probably the only way to be sure whether you have it is to get a checkup. I seem to have misdiagnosed my own prostatitis in the past as back pain, colds and jetlag. It's difficult to cure fully and can progress. Getting colds/ unidentifiable minor illnesses regularly - which seems to be a side-effect of prostatitis - makes it difficult to maintain a regular meditation (or whatever) practice. If you're retaining via internal locking, another more insidious danger emerges: this can be a one way ticket on a major ego trip, and extreme attachment to sex. After all now you're a) quantitatively better than most other men at a (/the?) defining activity of manhood, b.) not really limited in how much sex you can have, & c) your partner(s) may also become somewhat addicted to you... So there are physical and emotional/spiritual dangers. It's true that most of the world is way too "pro-ejaculation", with little recognition of its ill effects. But that doesn't justify a total backlash. A balanced recognition of the risks and benefits, and how to minimise the risks and maximise the benefits will serve the minority of people interested in exploring the benefits of retention better than totally ignoring the risks...

他当然看得懂啦! 但是对别会员有点不公平... 我不知道moderators关于我们用汉语的态度回怎么样... 我在昆明六七个月了.我去年在北京带了半年. 西安怎么样?你的老师们怎么找到了?

Can't get through to your link, but I've heard two practices called Shambhavi mudra: 1) focussing on and softening the soft palate - which is still the physically closest area of skin/mucus membrane to the pineal, even given Affenbrot's correction about its location, and which feels like it's energetically connected to something above and behind it... 2) gazing at the third eye point (the physically closest point the eyes can focus on) As for chanting OM - AUM - the first two syllables resonate lower down, in the belly and chest (lower and middle dantians). The mmmmm resonates in the nasal cavity, which is a lot closer - so if your specifically interests in the pineal, it might worth trying just humming mmmm. On the other hand the gradual upward movement of the vibrations in AUM might lift energy to the pineal/third eye. Once you have a bit of practice, chanting AUM can certainly change your mental state quite markedly within the space of three AUMs. Unfortunately, with practice comes volume, & the side-effect of less favourable changes to the mental state of the neighbours.

Not in China. Doors are optional here! And you wouldn't want to be stepping through your pants & especially undies after walking on the floor in most Chinese toilets...

Don't know about the bone socket, but according to "DMT the spirit molecule" it's likely the pineal produces DMT, and secretes it directly into the blood very close to the blood-brain barrier, which has an active mechanism for shuttling DMT across into the brain (by contrast with most a lot of other chemicals, which is keeps out). So the pineal is pretty special ;-) The diagram is a great for locating it - just feel up slightly from where your nostrils open into your throat. Concentrating on the soft palate, just in front of the holes, is one version of Shambhavi mudra & you can get a sense of space or energy there. The other is looking at the third eye. Both seem to be designed to bring attention to as close to the pineal as possible without feeling directly deep into the body or rotating the eyes 180 degrees. (Probably old yoga hat, but I think it's interesting...)

So your taiji form now includes the move 'big guy breaks loo' Reminds me of sharing a flight with a Chinese tour group! I have no choice at times, the squatting wouldn't be a problem if my trousers didn't constrict my knee position to much. & I always worry about messing up my trousers. Any tips? Re the article, it seems a bit of an obvious point - squat more and you'll get better at it...

I think there's even a different pronounciation for the words at the root of the confusion:: jing1 = 精 = essence (or semen - 精液) jin4 = 劲 = strength/power (as in mo1jin4 - 摸劲, small movements in yiquan zhan zhuang, aka 'feeling for strength/power' ie whole body connection, or fa1jin4 发劲 - emitting strength/power) As people have said above, in the alchemical systems, it's jing1->qi4->shen1. I don't think the martial arts systems are so interested in shen1. Once you've developed qi4, they see its main advantage is perceived to be physical power (jin4) - which you can emit suddenly (fa1jin4). (Otherwise, when martial artists fajing, they could be emitting semen. Messy business, fighting )

If you could chip in with salient comments now and then it'd be good - I don't think there are many people with experience of the Water Method on the forum.

Has anyone managed to find a teacher in China? All the discussion here seems to be about teachers in the West - even though a few people do seem to in China...

The reason is lack of information. China's a huge place, and the number of westerners interested enough in this kind of material to come here to learn it is probably small in comparison with the number of people in China who have a good grasp of it & would be prepared to teach it to reasonably dedicated students if there were less of a language barrier. But a relatively small proportion of these potential teachers get a western disciple who publicises them & all the demand goes their way, so they can charge very high prices. I think you implied it was/should be: "These people just try to make a living too." There's some truth in this, but I think you're exaggerating it. I could be wrong. I've seen bulls in chinashops (no pun intended) and how quickly they can lose Chinese friends goodwill. On the other hand, once people know you, and know you mean well, in my experience, they give you the benefit of the doubt many times over. I'm not sure how this justifies charging many times the price a chinese person would pay. Teacher student relationships are rarely straightforward in any culture I suspect. Absolutely. But you said "as a westerner, you are by all standards loaded in comparaison to any chinese student." For the middle-upper class this logic is false - as you say the wealthy are wealthy by western standards. And most of the less well off work such long hours that they wouldn't have time for serious study. So the wealthy are probably the relevant group for comparison. I appreciate the offer, as I said. Only the last two sentences seemed sarcastic & I apologise if that wasn't intended. If you can get me a good discount on the 100$ I'll check out your master next time I'm in Beijing. Now we have guanxi, and we should do things the Chinese way, 是吧! I do for pretty much everything else, including taiji classes. Sometimes I get "better than Chinese prices" via guanxi - to the extent that I sometimes have mixed feelings about it (especially for medical treatment). Guess I'll just have to see if I can work the guanxi - thought I was leaving the area so there are still quite a few unexplored leads.... But if there's any more info out there, especially about Yunnan, I'd appreciate it...

I don't really understand about jing & all that but at a physical level the semen & prostatic fluid can stagnate. There seems to be a relationship between low frequency of ejaculation and prostatis (inflamation of the prostate), which is more common amongst celibates (eg priests etc) than sexually more active men. I've developed a problem with this, and it's proving difficult to cure. Several doctors I've seen have mentioned the little ejaculation - prostatitis link, and this is in China, where I think most docs have had some exposure to the implicit taoism of TCM, which you might think would lead them to discourage ejaculation... For men trying the NEO route for some time, perhaps frequent prostate massage/drainage would reduce the risk of developing problems. (I don't know of any research on this, but some doctors in China do offer it, and I've read that it was used as a treatment for prostate problems in the west, but fell out of favour.)

Thanks for the link - impossible to find on google! I've cross-posted it to Emptyflower - there are some Bagua guys in Beijing who might like to check him out. Comparisons with a western teacher are stupid - they have to pay western living expenses, not much lower chinese living expenses. It's not a cultural difference, it's an economic difference. The cultural difference is an acceptance of discrimination against foreigners, which would be morally unacceptable in many western countries. I don't see how courtesy demands that anyone respects that. And the amounts are pretty outrageous (by Chinese standards - 如乡随俗). USD100 = RMB 800 = around 25% of average monthly salary in Beijing. I don't know if you've been to China, but if you'd seen all the people driving around in huge SUVs - which are heavily taxed here, and more expensive than in some western countries - the cafes and bars with near western prices, etc, you'd realise that to assume that assuming westerners are "loaded in comparaison (sic) to any chinese student" is nonsensical. There's a significant wealthy middle/upper class in the cities. No need to be sarcastic. I thanked you for your offer, but declined it & explained why. My experience with one teacher who charged a lot was quite negative, and I can see how making that kind of money from expendable foreigners could be corrupting. Rip off one for all you can get, there'll be another one along soon. & I haven't asked for anything for free, including lunch. If I prefer to order from the chinese version of menu, that's my call.

Thanks for the offer - but my experience with Chinese teachers who charge a heavy price has been quite negative...

Didn't occur to me that someone who could have NEO's (which is a bit of an achievement in itself, incidentally) would prefer the garden variety so strongly. Reminds me of an italian colleague on pizza in the UK: "I used to find them discusting until I started to think of them as totally different to the pizzas in Italy." Maybe if you can think more about how NEOs and EOs feel different (as opposed to better/worse) and how you feel afterwards - I think this was the clincher for me - you won't have such a strong preference. Something else that might help is asking your partner to disengage as soon as she's finished - some of the time. You'll probably end up having non-orgasmic sex this way, and might discover that it's not as bad as you thought.

Ok - please tell us the story...

I'm in China, and I don't want to go back to Europe. So my question was: "Has anyone managed to find a teacher in China?" as a prelude to asking how people who've found a satisfactory teacher how they went about it... I realise guanxi are important in China and that there are lots of charlatans or people who exaggerate their abilities. But if I can understand how people have found good teachers, unless it's always been pure chance, perhaps I have some chance of replicating their success.

Hmm - I think he's asking how you get yourself into a state that allows this. I'd say 1) practice on your own 2) work a lot at PC muscle exercises 3) practice some kind of yoga/energy work 4) get your partner's support - she'll see the benefits ;-) 5) try using condoms, or thicker ones if you use them already Through 1 & 2 you should be able to learn to have non-ejaculatory orgasms. They're almost as good as the normal kind, so this tends to reduce the attachment to ejaculation (and orgasm generally I think). 3, energy work, is important because you need to be aware of and fairly detached from, physical sensations to judge how close you are to the edge and respond appropriately. For this specific purpose, I think vinyasa/Ashtanga yoga works well. The PC muscle (aka mula bandha) is supposed to be engaged through the whole practice, the gymnastic nature of the vinyasa gives you some feedback about how well you're doing in this respect (your body feels lighter with the bandhas engaged) and you learn to monitor your breath to judge whether you're over-stretching or pushing yourself too hard. This last skill translates pretty well in a sexual context - and the stamina and flexibility are helpful too; it's easier to stay on track if you're not exhausted and physically comfortable and relaxed. (But if you do Ashtanga in particular, watch your knees - don't do the half lotus/lotus until your hips are flexible enough.) Another benefit from energy work is that it can provide energetic sensations somewhat similar to orgasm (albeit generally much milder). If you're getting these sensations regularly during qigong or yoga, you probably won't feel such a need to get them during sex. 1-3 will also improve your stamina - in the sense of time to orgasm (ejaculatory or not). Women can only take so much - for some it's hours, limited by physical exhaustion, others seem to get a kind of overload of the nervous systems that makes it impossible for them to take further stimulation - sometimes after one orgasm. Regardless of your partner's limits, you can probably learn to outlast her - either with a long time to orgasm or ability to continue after the non-ejaculatory version.

Daoist nei gong, mainly, I guess...

Fair enough - good luck with everything. You probably already know about the Thaivisa forum; there's quite a lot of discussion there about buying property, farming etc in Thailand (as well as visa issues).

I doubt there's any legal reason not to sell them, as long as you don't use that name. Those things have been around hundreds (if not thousands) of years. I remember seeing a TV program where these Iranian wrestlers involved in some kind of ancient fire worship warrior cult were using them. A bit tricky for a foreigner in Thailand, I seem to recall...

Maybe you should do permaculture + online club sales ;-) I'm just up the hill in Kunming. Unfortunately it's still expensive to fly Kunming-Thailand, but I have plans to head south next winter. Maybe catch up then...

The site has videos on yin, ashtanga & tibetan energy yoga, various qigongs and meditation (from Pema Chodren and Jack Kornfield). The free ones are low-res 'previews' that appear in a small box in your browser, with the full, hi-res versions at $5-10. But in many cases the preview seems to contain most of or all of the full video, and the resolution's perfectly watchable at fullscreen. So why buy retail? ;-) Here's how to capture these vids for offline viewing at the screen size of your choice: - select a video. The URL will be http://www.beyou.tv/videos/VIDEO-TITLE. (VIDEO-TITLE = the name of the vid you're watching.) - view the source page (In "view" menu, or ctrl+u in firefox) - search the page (ctrl+f in firefox) for "video_" - there'll be lots of places in the source where "video_" is followed by a 2 or three digit number, X - point your download manager at http://video.beyou.tv/videos/X_low.flv Use an FLV savvy video player to watch the file at your leisure (& choice of screen size). An alternative is to look for the FLV file in your browser cache. With firefox, cached files don't have file extensions, but if you sort the cached files by size, these 100+mb whoppers are easy to find. Just change the extension to FLV to play.

Just bumping this - there's stuff there that'd cost a lot to buy on DVD, and they're basically giving 90% of it away to anyone with modest web-fu... I just put 'free' in quotes because they're not *supposed* to be free... Minkus - let us know if you find stuff you like. I haven't had a chance to watch 1% of what I've downloaded!