Meow

From your posts I gathered that there are universal truths, and there are partial ones. But there is a jarring element in this: does it mean that the partial ones are illusions? That's not bad per se, if they're useful illusions and methods, but then again: What exactly are you doing if do energy work in a certain tradition, which is different from another? Are these channels and whatever the tradition describes fake? If fake, and it's all trickery, how can an unreal thing like that work? Another example: yogi believe in atman and reach for its essence, buddhists have a doctrine of no-self and reach for the non-dual awareness. Are the two the same, or is one of them fundamentally wrong, if we talk about universal truths?

That's nice, let's talk about chakras. Chakras are the type of "knowledge" I'm looking for. But not only about them. Tell me, why is it that there are chakras for some people, and no chakras for others? Why is it that some people believe in immortal fetus and some conceive of no such a thing? Are the whole traditions wrong and delusional, despite all of them having claims to the sublime type of such knowledge? Knowledge should be universal if it's true. It cannot change from person to person, from one tradition to another.

If you belong to a tradition that uses bliss, there's nothing to say without arguing the whole tradition. But as it is, nobody speaks of either intense amount of pain or eternal bliss, do they? There's no such choice, it's somewhere in between. There's no way to paralyze your body from feeling anything, and to paralyze your mind from feeling emotions. It sounds like death or coma, not like life.

Stopped thoughts on their own is a useless situation, though. It has to be solely about stopping to evaluate. I'm not sure that it's what I'm looking for, but it might be. And I have to wonder why so many people try and we don't see them succeeding? Just a paranoid part of me asking. One of people I know closely spent over 30 years trying to find something this way, learnt to stop his thoughts and lots of other things. Now he believes it's all a scam, there's nothing beyond the physical brain. I'd politely disagree. It's possible to be sceptic and act against your believes, if you have hope. The skeptics I was talking about weren't the skeptics in the usual sense, however, their skepticism was about practicing the suspension of judgement and gaining tranquility, a la your own idea: http://171.67.193.20/entries/skepticism-ancient/#PyrSke Yes it would, if it works. You can test intuition with Zener cards: http://www.psychicscience.org/esp3.aspx Mine doesn't work for sure But it's revealing to see which emotions rise up when you're forced to choose a hidden card and to imagine that you "know" which one it is. The emotion can be so convincing and real.

There are easier ways to achieve pleasure than meditation. Even intensified pleasure. And pleasure that's coming from unusual mind experiences doesn't make pleasure anything more than pleasure, even if it's supreme bliss or something alike. Considering how the whole life is about searching for pleasure and running from pain, HECK NO, it would be crazy to meditate for the same purpose. An outlet of that circle, please, not vice versa. Pleasure is disgusting in the way that it makes you do things that you do, even if you know that you shouldn't be doing them or if they harm you. It rules your life so completely. Imho a wish to get more of it is incompatible with the wish to change oneself, since that's exactly what puts a stop to any change.

The talk is about the unnatural Although I do understand why you bring it up. It must look strange that I'm not talking about the natural here, but that's because whenever I try something, that's what I get. In the case of that taoist teacher, I asked him how should one know the true nature of that unnatural, the difference between a normal experience and a neglectable one, between something that is a sign of progress and something that your own wish conjured up. That's what the orange answer was about. I take it that you just "know". It can also be interpreted as "everything you experience is worthy\real\natural", but such an attitude is unhelpful, even if it's true. While you can easily imagine that 2+2=10, and this imagining will be a natural experience on par with all others, it's unhelpful if you're looking for the correct answer. It's a little like science. There are things that people discover with its help, and they take care that their discoveries are correct and describe reality as closely as possible. And there are things that you can discover without it (at least many traditions state so), but for that you need an alternative ability to "know". An unscientific one, the one that that master was talking about. The reduction of the mind, yes, that's the idea. I tried different ways, and all don't hold to scrutiny. High concentration does nothing but create visions and revelations, a thought stopping process does the same, energy work does the same, in fact, anything I tried does the same thing first and foremost. The question is: is it an unavoidable trap you fall into and have to plunge through? If so, when will it stop, can you break through and how do you KNOW that you've had? I totally don't want to experience all these things, and if I have to, then I want to have a look into their nature. This is what skeptics were doing in Ancient Greece, far from enlightened people, and they didn't have much success with finding any kind of knowledge. That alone is not enough.

We seem to have a misunderstanding here. If I failed to recognize something, that means that there was no source of knowledge\recognition present at the moment. That's exactly what I wish to find: a faculty to access, recognize and then assess correctly something that cannot be assessed by the mind. When I asked one taoist teacher a similar question, he said that this type of knowledge is natural like tasting an orange. So I presume that it meant: you should know something precisely, as precisely as you know how the orange tastes. And that it comes naturally, without interpretation, all at once. If you say that maybe I failed to recognize something, there was nothing natural about it. Even if there was an orange, there was no instant knowledge of its taste. But it's not like I understand how to achieve that. And what's wrong with all those random things that happen instead, which I don't really want to happen.

Maybe this is it, I don't know. What I can imagine is limited by my experience, which is not alike to what you describe. I got things pouring rapidly into my mind, unknown facts and explanations, snippets from lives of people I never knew. Visions of places that did not exist, of things that I never saw. But I never got to experience anything truly meaningful. All of that was unimportant. Let's wait for them.

XieJia, thanx for the welcome! If I start answering your questions about the nature of mind, we'll go into the mires of philosophy, I'm afraid. I'd prefer this topic to be more practical So let's simplify everything to the extreme: "The mind" is everything you've ever known and experienced, that's the field of knowledge that it possesses. So things like knowledge of the workings of energy are not a part of what the mind can encompass and cannot come from it. No no, I named the topic "knowledge" because it's about knowledge, not about superpowers! It's about knowledge which cannot be known by any normal means, and which at times can be used. Because this knowledge is outside of our field of experience and understanding, I proposed that there is a bridge from it to our experience: if you're a taoist, think about chi awareness leading to knowledge of diseases, other revelations from the unknown source leading to knowledge of how to create an immortal fetus. Such things couldn't be learnt from the mind or created, they came from somewhere, not from holy scriptures. This "somewhere" is what I'm talking about.

Although the title doesn't mention it, it's a topic about mental obsession with sex. My friend has a problem with it and is searching for a solution, but cannot ask here on his own. Why do I say mental? Because he can abstain without any problem, however, he constantly wants to talk about sex, to search for information on sex, and it wastes a lot of his time. I know that some taoist practices allow sex, but in general people try to abstain (just like him). So this problem must be familiar to many people here. I'm looking for your experience with the mental type of obsession that lingers after you've managed to abstain for a while, if you don't mind sharing. And possibly some tips. I can hardly be of help here on my own, I do not have that problem. P.S. And I may be completely off the mark, but can't the practices of energy conversion lead to the lack of sexual obsession per se (after all, it gets converted to "higher" types)?

That sounds really good. May I ask how much time has passed since then with no big urges? Isn't it the most difficult thing in the world, to find a hobby that you love so much that even obsession pales in comparison? Something that you would think of when you're not busy, like brushing your teeth, or going shopping. It's like replacing one obsesion with another, less harmful. What do you think of when you're brushing your teeth and going to bed? There are many gaps, since many activities do not require high concentration. I personally find my thoughts wandering during most of day activities, since they can be done automatically. Moreover, doing them non-automatically with paying attention quickly becomes extremely boring, since you've been doing them for years and years. In my own experince only intense enough intellectual "work" can take off your mind from something. Physical activities don't work like that, and all gaps are usually physical activities. But your mind has to think of something all the time. No, he'll be turning 40 in a few years It's not physical obsession, no problem there, it's mental. My guess is that it's about curiosity, since he's never been with a woman (for spiritual reasons). I didn't notice it before, but maybe he hid the obsession too well or I simply ignored it too well, as sex has never meant anything for me. No porn or whatever, but he says that anything he does reminds him of women. I will ask about food, too. Does food really have any bearing on that, though? That's surprising.

Well, he's doing that, I can assure you The problem is that no hobby can be done 24\7. I have some experience with obsessive thoughts myself, so I can attest that taking your focus off doesn't work very well for strong obsessions. For example, you've found a task that requires a great deal of concentration and that you really really like. It takes you to the alternative universe when you're doing it, everything else ceases to exist. But once it's over, which inevitably happens, you bounce back to your old self instantly. And your obsession is back, as strong as ever! So although such tasks do work, they work for a limited time and ultimately have no effect on your obsessive thoughts. If you could take such a task and do it non-stop for a week, the chances for it to kill off your obsession would be reasonable, by suffocating it, however, I have no such hobby in mind that could be performed for the most part of the day. But maybe you have something in particular to suggest? I'd be happy to listen. This is nice if it works, there's hope for the better. My friend is doing energy work and says that it helps him in that department, although not enough for now.

So the conversion process actually lowers the sexual desire? That's what he's doing, but apparently it's not enough...

So here's a new forum poster. I came here in order to ask a question that my friend wants answered, first of all, but I also have some interests of my own, especially as far as "energy" is concerned. Big thanx to Mal for helping me register