Vmarco

Would you not wish to realize if you have lied to to yourself all of your life? Or is ignorance bliss?

Paul Brunton suggested: http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/14/2#section1

"Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant....on the luminous continuity of existence which has no origin and which has never died, we project all the images of life and death, terror and joy, demons and gods. These images become our complete reality, and we submit without thinking to their dance. In all the movements of this dance we project our greatest fears on death, and we make every effort to ignore it." Padmasambhava

IMO celebacy is a tricky word,...dictionaries imply it means forced abstention from sex, vows, religious neurosis, etc. Let's suppose however, that one has a focued, burning desire for something, such as uncovering the nature of nirvana,...and thus all their time is utilized towards that quest, to such a extent that the desire is for Others, not one's perceived self,...and which by consequence, one does not indulge in sex or marriage,...it that person celebate? As the word celebate was re-translated throughout history, did it always imply abstention, restriction, denial, disconnection, religious neurosis, etc?

Ascension is not that complicated,...it is merely the reverse of the descension. The descension on the other hand is very complex,...and not very easy to let go of.

Me and Lao Tzu would be great buds if he was physically among us

I fully disagree. Spirit (the in-breath/out-breath of duality), divine (an ego invention having to do with the devotion to godliness), and god (an imagained creator to make the illusions of the deluded ignorant more palatable), are all with the dualistic concepts of good and evil. Although there were several insights, like the problem with fear, in the top post,...what was not mentioned is the necessity of letting go of all hope,...because fear will always persists as long as their is hope. As Tilopa said, " the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear." Or as Chogymam Trungpa said, "to understand the most essential meaning of the Buddha's teachings, we need to let go of theism." When theism is let go of,...that is, all things divine and godly,...only then can spirituality (the Yin/Yang of the in-breath and out-breath of perceived existence) be understood,...and until that is understood,...all ideas of Wei Wu are futile. Lao Tzu said, "Dualistic thinking is a sickness. Religion is a distortion. Materialism is cruel. Blind spirituality is unreal."

And to repeat,,...my question was, "what does forced celebacy have to do with enlightenment?" Tesla's intentions and attention was not, IMO, on restricting sperm to acquire Ki,...and if he was consciously aware of Ki, he would have likely uncovered what Ki actually is. What Ki is not, is what most people into Ki think it is,..that is, to put it bluntly, an energy. Interestingly, Tesla, the fellow who invented the electric motor, fluorescent lighting, devices for x-rays, ionized gases, and charged particle beams, etc, etc. called Walter Russell (the fellow I quoted in post #12), the Leonardo DaVinci of the 20th century. Even Tesla was blown away by Russell's works, although he added that it may be a thousand years before people will understand them. I consider Ki from Ki's point of view,...that is, the Supreme Fulcrum of the universe. In China, this is called chi. First was Wu Chi, the Great Source, which exists beyond form, or from which form extends. Wu Chi is as the fulcrum upon which One (lever) effects its motion via Yin/Yang (lever in motion). Then around the eleventh century CE, T’ai Chi was developed. Wu Chi is the Tao in stillness, and T’ai Chi is called the Tao in motion,...although in truth, the Tao is never in motion. Wu Chi and Ki is synonymous with undivided, still light. Some philosophies suggest that Ki can be accessed through three points. Hapkido practitioners are primarily interested in the physical danjun point, which is located about nine centimeters below the navel. The thymus and pineal area are the other Ki points, which can be activated through Ki encouraging practices, such as Reiki and Sunyata. Many often limit their understanding of Ki or Chi by calling it energy. Ki is not an energy; it’s a stillness. There is no energy in stillness, although we could refer to Ki-related energy. T’ai Chi is a moving meditation that allows an unimpeded circulation of energy from the still point of Ki. Imagine a gallon (or 3.7 liter) can of house paint that has been sitting on a shelf. The pigments, binders, biocides, thickeners, surfactants, co-solvents, etc., settle at different levels in the can, thus giving the paint an inadequate viscosity for use, unless it is mixed properly. The best way to mix a can of paint is in an electric shaker. Such a shakened can of paint stays usable for many hours before resettling. The shaker machine itself is still, as a fulcrum, while the paint is being vibrated. A Ki practitioner moves in a circular fashion from the body’s fulcrum at the danjun point, thus enabling energy to flow freely. The Ki is the fulcrum. Like a can of paint, our bodies need to be shaken from the Ki point every day so energy eases through us and does not settle or become stagnant, thereby manifesting the dis-ease which brings disease. More than two-thirds of our body is water. Exercising or walking from a pseudo-center of gravity will not stir our body’s seventy-five percent liquid properly for energy to flow. Ki permits energy to flow more freely when the bodily, emotional, and mental faculties are relaxed. Ki itself is a still silence that is similar to the eye of a hurricane or typhoon. The kihap or yell that martial artists use, when done correctly, is simply the exhale, or a place where the still eye of the hurricane meets the eye wall of the storm and manifests physical destruction. The greatest power arises through the greatest relaxation. The lower a hurricane’s pressure at its center, the more devastating the storm is at the eye wall. The more relaxed the martial artist, the more overwhelming the energy that extends from the Ki. The greatest (and only)power in the universe unfurls from a zero-point. Korean Hapkido Grand Master Jeong told me, “Ki is in the stop [or zero point] before the kihap.” The power is not in the yell; the yell is simply an incidental byproduct of the Ki process. The kihap is just the exhale. A kihap uttered without connecting with the stop is mere posing or pretending. Instead of martial artists’ practicing a yell, they should be practicing the stop. When power comes from the stop, the kihap simply happens. I began to grasp the significance of Ki following a question that I addressed to the instructor on the subject. Grand Master Jeong told me to grab him. I expected to be tossed to the mat, but instead, he touched me with a single finger on a point near the crease of my elbow, and I instantly dropped as if I had somehow been turned off, like an electrical device after someone flips a switch. I was so amazed that I quickly asked to see this move again, as if one could see Ki revealed in the physical aspect of the technique. Sure enough, I again collapsed like an unplugged character from the Wachowski brothers’ Matrix films. The technique that dropped me to the mat is called Ki disruption,...although Ki is never really distruptive. Without Ki extended through what is called “enlivened hands,” however, what dropped me was just a point on the arm, which at most may have bent my elbow. Without being centered in the one point from which energy extends and circulates, the very best that anyone can be as a martial artist is a tropical storm, an unanchored disturbance that is nowhere near the level of a calm-centered hurricane. Later, I found out that if my energy flow had moved unimpeded from the Ki, the disruption that dropped me would not have occurred. Authentic Hapkido is an activity through which one channels life force out through the hands or feet. The physical techniques are circumstantial. The Hapkido martial artist is a conduit who employs these techniques to exceed ordinary physical ability. Various phenomena using Ki through that enhanced ability are quite testable and have been documented. The Ki Master Koichi Tohei said, “We are able to move most rapidly and violently when we remain perfectly calm. Likewise, the truest calm is reached when we move at the greatest speed.” Obviously, I had to know more about Ki to understand what he meant. Grand Master Jeong showed me techniques for connecting with this tremendous vitality. A few minutes of daily Ki practice can greatly improve one’s physiology, from flexibility to longevity, enhancing the body’s natural healing powers, to promoting healthy teeth. However, I wasn’t yet able to tap into this mind–body unifying life force. I did the practice, but the movement did not originate from my point of three-way balance. I continued to hold onto a false center of gravity. My desire to experience Ki paved the way to hand drumming' The practice of drumming encourages relaxation, rhythmic breathing, a conscious connection with duality, and moving from stillness. Relaxation is one of the 4 Principles of Hapkido. Through Ki consciousness, the masculine and feminine inhale and exhale of sound and motion become very distinguishable. Centered upon the fulcrum of Ki, the yin and yang are as clear as two children on the opposite ends of a seesaw. Drumming, if done spiritually, from a true center of gravity, effortlessly introduces one’s attention to a one-point awareness below the navel, and subsequently to the still source of our life force. I was most fortunate to have a spiritually minded djembe teacher who placed much emphasis on relaxation, the masculine–feminine flow, and drumming from one’s core. For me, drumming presents one’s presence to the presence of Ki and allows a connection with the timeless essence to extend the universal life force out through one’s hands. Ki is in the present, thus beyond time, yet the energy extended through Ki moves in time, as the lever of a seesaw harmoniously moves upon a timeless, balanced middle,...no sexual repression necessary. I didn’t immediately make the connection between drumming and the “one thing” through which I could understand everything. Drumming meditations, that is, the act of moving from a center of stillness, certainly manifested out-of-body experiences, through which I could observe myself from outside my body. However, the deeper connection between drumming and my “one thing” happened at a place called Bantu Camp, a weeklong African drumming–dancing cultural workshop. On the second and subsequent evenings, I heard it while several of the master drummers played. There were voices rising from the drums. At first, I perceived the voices as a spiraling sound that seemed like a thirty-three-RPM record being played at seventy-eight RPM. Drums sing through drummers who drum as conduits of the life force. To get more regularly connected with Ki, I began practicing T’ai Chi Chih, a peaceful, moving meditation developed by Justin Stone. Stone is an extraordinary self-testimonial for the movements in the system he realized through many years of T’ai Chi Chuan. Despite being in his nineties, he doesn’t look a day older than a healthy seventy-two, and I’ve heard that he has the teeth of a twenty-year-old. (Thirteen Ki meridians or pathways, that is, ducts that act as conductors of energy, flow through the teeth.) The somewhat abbreviated form of T’ai Chi that Stone practices is not only a great way to begin the day, but also a superb warmup for drumming or simply keeping one’s “can of paint” unsettled and enlivened by circulating and balancing the conflux of energy that moves through us. I enjoy the softness and universality of the movements and also that they are done in repetitions of nine. As one uncovers a certain level of understanding the Tao, nine is seen as the first and only reflection of zero, an important insight in realizing the light that we are. Nothing in nature is, or can be, more or less than nine. When beginning a Ki practice, such as T’ai Chi, there is an effort to relax, move softly, and shift one’s weight smoothly. Our body (nine) strives to uncover Ki (zero) at the danjun point. When we reveal the Ki (zero) point to the body (nine), effort lessens, and the Ki (zero) then does the Ki practice without effort. Awareness of Ki connects us with the spiritual value of zero. For many people, however, Ki remains inaccessible. One reason for this is an inability to breathe properly. The first breath of a typical American usually occurs by being pulled from the birth canal and spanked. That’s not a breath, that’s a gasp, a desperate intake of air. From birth, we are continually indoctrinated to hold our breath, which leads us unconsciously to manifest erratic breathing that lacks a balanced, harmonious flow. People who hold their breath have an inclination towards stress, fear, hope, and superstition. That may have been perceived as advantageous for our hunter-gatherer ancestors, but such crimping of proper breathing is a barrier to spirituality. Ki exercises encourage a connection with our authentic spiritual self through relaxed breathing and thus letting go of attachments to fear, hope, and superstition. While many may think that they are spiritual and can go out and do random acts of kindness and love, unless they have transcended fear, hope, and superstition, such actions are not true acts of kindness and love. The expression of anything filtered through fear, hope, and superstition is neither an act of pure kindness and love, nor spiritual. We all think that our road is the one paved with good intentions. However, any intention that arises from or filtered through, fear, hope, or superstition is tainted, and so that road is feculent.

Tough celibacy question? I've always tended to stay out of these bizarre topics,...I mean, what does forced celebacy have to do with enlightenment? How is denying sexuality, beneficial for spirituality? Should I cease my out-breath? Is not any idea to have an in-breath without an out-breath is ridiculous. Is not every condition, whether a belief, an element from the Periodic Table of the Elements, or a huge planet in orbit within our solar system, fundamentally sexual? The nature of duality is a sexual, yin-yang reality. Walter Russell, in his Scientic Explaination of Sex (1949) wrote: that "The lack of higher sex knowledge is facilitating a rapid degeneracy of the whole of our civilization." Walter Russell Russell continued, that civilizations have fallen from high places many times in history for lack of sex knowledge and wrong sex practices. It is most possible that the present civilation will fall for the same reason. He said, by higher sex knowledge I mean the effects of wrong sexual practice and wrong mate choosing. Mates should be found from a spiritual, mental, character building viewpoint, instead of just a physical, biological and emotional point of view. It has been said, "a man is what he thinks". To this, Russell adds "a man is what his sex practice and sex ideals make of him". He continued that sex practice can be the most spiritually uplifting, or the most mentally, emotionally and physical defilling thing in one's life. The greatest injury from promiscuous sex relations lies in the fact that each person has his own wave length pattern - promiscuous sex relations affect both by undermining both. Few realize that every cell in the body, plus the nature of the blood stream, is permanently affected, for better or worse, by sex relations. Russell proposed that sex relations unifies two close mates, but badly distorts unbalanced ones. Thus, years of hard climbing towards one's spiritual goal can be nullified, according to Russell, in one brief costly hour of thoughtlessness in violating this most holy relationship between the sexes. He said that the ever thoughtless average human thinks that sexual promiscuity leaves no damaging effects unless one of the participants is diseased. Mr Average Man would be shocked to learn that the very Self-pattern of his emotions, his blood stream, his individual ideal and his very character is degenerated by choosing the wrong mate and by every promiscuous sexual experience. Electrical connections between any two unequal sex mates distort the human wave forms which make up the human pattern. That, according to Russell, is the danger of promiscuity, and makes the idea of a mate choosing the most serious business of any man's life. Human sex interchange must be a balanced one. What about sexlessness? Russell said, one who forgoes sex can hardly expect to have a creative mind, or become a great leader, inventer, composer or artist. Sexless people tend to become copyists or imitators. They do not create - they repeat. They do not imagine - they remember. Technical skill may develop in them to a high degree, to disguise their lack of inspiration, but there is little art in those skills. For sexless people, their mental status is progressive only through reflection from other sources outside of themselves. It does not arise from a well-spring within themselves. Sexless lives add very little new knowledge and new creations. For this reason, elibacy and impotency are prone to develop reformers, fanatics and zealots. Celibacy and virginity are unnatural, abnormal states, which create abnormal and subnormal people. In time, either atrophy of the generative powers or neurotic conditions or sublimation, causes a permanent derangement of body, mind and spirit. Are not reformers, fanatics and zealots are necessary to sustain the attachment to mundain reality.

That's all I've been suggesting,...toss all the beliefs out. "All the joy the world contains Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself." Shantideva Faith, belief, theology, salvation, inter-faith advocacy, is all about the perceived self. Would Mother Theresa have helped anyone if not filtered through her faith? Thus, of what value is the help she allegedly performed? In reality, in the long term, she only brought more misery upon others, by giving a little rice, with faith-based conditions attached to.

What has kept Christians ignorant of their complicity during two millennia of treachery and crimes against humanity and nature? What is the expected value that they hope to realize by the acceptance of this unquestioning belief through faith in their scripture? Is it because of their fear of death? Is it because of hope and the anticipation of heaven? Perhaps their fear and insecurity is perceived to be reduced through the hope that the meek will inherit the earth. Maybe their fear of not being good enough is tranquilized by the hope of salvation. The truth is that today’s Christianity offers no wisdom about reality or how to trigger direct, authentic experiences with the source of who we are. Christianity only desires to feed and sustain faith in its beliefs, a faith that steps between both individual and collective, and their direct experience, so that what is false continues to perpetuate itself.

Doing little things is great,...and although you obviously reject outright what I'm saying, I'll say it again,...doing little things to help is often not the right thing, especially from a faith-based agenda. Yes,...certainly,...uncovering more compassion is sorely needed today. Someone once said, the pain that you carry is the love that you withhold. And how so very few realize that the faith-based are the most obscured from love segment of society. Love, in my view, is very much associated with the compassion of a bodhisattva,...that is to say,...displays of faith-based caring, is not the love I speak of. Most Christians and Christian hybrids believe the God they invoke while spreading their faith, is love. However, in the whole of their Holy Book, the Bible, it only suggests the idea that their God is love at the very end, in the late 2nd Century apology 1John. In fact, when viewing the full length and breadth of the Bible, their Patriarch is clearly a murderous, pro-slavery, vacillant, petty, racist, conditional God. And amazingly, a God who is so insecure, that it demands to be worshiped, obeyed and prayed to. Christians say, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7. Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is idealized by Christians, it isn't Unconditional Love, but the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs Buddhism is fully contrary to bearing, believing, hoping, and enduring. Tilopa said, that to transcend the mind's dualities all hope must die. "the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear." Christianity advocates hope and fear. Compassion or love can never uncovered through hope and fear. Real love does not avoid,...perfect love is not coddling,...authentic love shines it light on all the barriers (beliefs) that people have built againt it. True love is honest,...honesty does not tolerate dishonesty. All beliefs are dishonest. All beliefs are barriers to love. To have an authentic discussion of compassion, it is necessary to put hope and fear on the table,...for if one is connected to hope and fear, their faith-based caring actions are no more than a display of psuedo-compassion, which is worse than no caring at all,...because psuedo-compassion promotes ans sustains hope, fear, and faith-based insanity. The compassion of a Bodhisattva is not synonymous with hope or desire. Hope and desire belong to an anticipation and expectation of the future. Hope and desire ensues from the thought of lack; that things should be other than they are. The compassion of a Bodhisattva is an intention, unencumbered by predisposition, to allow Love to flow, and arrive at its own harmonium. The faith-based are cerebral-centric puppets,...fully obscured from Heart-Mind,...for it is impossible to access "heart" through faith. Faith is a condition that establishes and maintains a barrier a person and their direct experience. Whereas you want to "start little"...pretending to display loving kindness in society,...I ask, why not "start real"...and reflect the compassion of a bodhisattva. Whereas Aaron wants to promote his a,b.and c or man-invented compassion,...I ask, why not promote the guidance to access what Aaron calls x,y,and z compassion,...the compassion that is expressed through honesty. Instead of psuedo acts of kindness that promote faith-based delusions,...why not teach people how to fish so to say,...so the planet can enter an era of authentic loving kindness.

Keep in mind, that the prototype for Jesus, partially arose from Sarapis,..the thymos or heart centered religion of gnosis. When the Greeks spoke of the Higher Mind, they pointed to the chest and said thymos,...the thymos is the seat of gnowledge. Gnowledge (Heart Mind) is a direct threat to the faith-based "book religions." Over the portico of theTemple of Delphi it is written "Gnothi Seauton"....Gnow Thyself. But religion has altered this to say Know Thyself,...which is not the same. Knowledge comes from psyche, the Head Mind. As I mentioned elsewhere: The story of present-day Christianity is part of a larger mythology. The evidence suggests that the actual principle of Christ grew out of Memphite philosophy—literally, the Krst, the anointed ones, like the Risen Horus/Apis. Then in the fifth century BCE, the word Christos, referring to an “awakened one,” crept into Greek subculture, and this word can be found in the works of classical writers, such as Aeschylus and Herodotus, the father of history. Let me repeat,...the word Christ is recorded in 5th century BCE literature. Hundreds of years later, in his letter to the Consul Servianus, Hadrian (71–138 CE), who was the governor of Syria under Trajan, called the Sarapian leaders “bishops of Christ.” Up until the beginning of the Second Century, the Egypto-Greek Sarapians, including those in Syria, called themselves Christians and bishops of Christ.

So,...I went back to re-read that post,...and what I read is that you fully reject the x, y. and z definitions of compassion presented by HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara, Quan Yin etc. Are you now not saying this? Are you now suggesting that perhaps their x, y. and z compassion may have some validity,...and your monkey mind acquired a, b. and c definition may not be the only definition of compassion?

I fully agree,...as I said in my post,...inter-faith beliefs are very trendy right now,...just look at the huge following of Thich Nhat Hanh,...who promotes a Buddha/Jesus amalgamation,...as if one could really bring their conditions into the Unconditional, and the Unconditional would remain Unconditional,...ain't ever going to happen.

I consider Western Mysticism and Christian Mysticism one and the same,...whether Kabbalistic, Sufi, Rosicrucian, Meister Eckhart, etc,...all seek some sort of imagined connection with a divine or god,...and are incapable of the direct experience available through the non-dual perspective of Eastern Mysticism, which does not seek connection with an imagined divinity or god. Western Mystics seek sensory experiences,...Eastern Mystics are interested in the unconditioned experiences beyond the sensory apparatus. "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao Tzu

In a nutshell, Non-duality is about letting go of beliefs, whereas Christian Mysticism is about accumulating beliefs. One thing all Christian Mystics have in common is a belief in a god,...for Non-duality, god would be one of the first things to go. http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm I attempted to share with Dominicus a variety of ideas on how he can, as he asked, have a successful Center. God is very dual,...ie., god is light, and in him is no darkness. Everything about god is duality based. People don't want to visit a Center where everything they thought was meaningful, is shown to be meaningless,...they want stuff to support their beliefs,..thus, a successful Retreat Center would build on their beliefs, so they left with the feeling that they were expanding, and experiencing the divine.

IMO it would impossible to have a successful retreat, catering to Zen, Taoist, General Mystic, Nondualist, Buddhist, Christian, etc.,...as these are incompatable terms. For example, what are the similiarities between Buddhism and Christianity? http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief02.pdf Can someone embrace non-duality and Western Mysticism at the same time? No Way! Probably the best model that advocates your ideology is the University of Science and Philosophy,...not far from you in Western Virginia,...a mix of Jesus and unspoken Daoism. For a time, you will likely be quite successful, as many New Agers are attracted to the inter-faith program you espouse,...those who wish to cling to various indoctrinations while adding more to their knowledge base, as if they were actually elevating spiritually. For a successful local center,...purchase a geodesic dome kit, and solicit volunteers to build it, to spawn ownership in your Center. To be successful Nationally or beyond, you must project yourself Nationally or beyond. I did a 3 week workshop at Leonard Orr's International Training Center in Virginia,...a very exciting and rewarding experience. Another model, a rather successful one, is Synergy Ranch in NM http://synergiaranch.com/ which rents space for various workshops,..keeping an eclectic flow. One of my favorite Centers is the 3 sided-whole http://www.3sidedwhole.com/ which incorporates regular, participatory music venues, like drum circles and overnight campouts. Many prosperous Centers have an identifiable structure,...like the Rosicrucians Egyptian buildings. IMO, from reading several of your posts, if you focused more on your Christian Mysticism stuff, instead of non-dual subjects beyond the capacity of mystics,...you could incorporate a burial grotto at your Center, where mystics could be in communiy after death,...that would attract looks of committed interest.

Very interesting idea,...can compassion be somehow quantified through brain scans? Showing once and for all that faith-based advocacy is not compassion,...but a detriment to humanity,...the most cruel thing one person can do to another,...that is, to advocate beliefs that step between others and their direct experience.

Although the "meek" love jargon like that, it not only does nothing to elevate human beingness, but is a recipe to keep people asleep. Reminds me of The "lying, thieving Albanian dwarf” described by Christopher Hitchens,...referring to Mother Teresa, the "friend of poverty" and advocate of rice-driven Christian indoctrination who wasn't even relatively compassionate, as the book Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice explains. The only way to honestly make the world a better place is, as mentioned in post #25, by having no hesitation, no inhibition about calling a pile of shit, a pile of shit. However, to get to that level of compassion, one must first uncover within themselves, honesty. "As long as your shallow worldly ambitions exist (ie, hopes, beliefs, attachments to faith-based traditions) the door will not open." Lao Tzu

IMO, Sharon Salzberg got it correct, from a Budhhist/Daoist point of view: "Sometimes we think that to develop an open heart, to be truly loving and compassionate, means that we need to be passive, to allow others to abuse us, to smile and let anyone do what they want with us. Yet this is not what is meant by compassion. Quite the contrary. Compassion is not at all weak. It is the strength that arises out of seeing the true nature of suffering in the world. Compassion allows us to bear witness to that suffering, whether it is in ourselves or others, without fear; it allows us to name injustice without hesitation, and to act strongly, with all the skill at our disposal." from Sharon Salzberg 'Compassion, the Supreme Emotion'

Seems a bit more than simply semantics. Your first, and continuing response to me appears to be that there is one, and only definition of compassion, and that is Aaron's a,b, and c approach,...while the x, y, and z approach held by the greatest non-Judeao/Christian/Muslem figures (HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara, Quan Yin) is total nonsense. "Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces." Chögyam Trungpa

Aaron,...if you are not a politician by trade, I would serious wonder why not. It is you who are advocating subjective, groupthink notions on your a, b, and c's of what compassion is,....I'm merely arguing that the most well known persons, past and present on the subject, are pointing to something else. Of course you hope that people will get tired of me,...as Johann Goethe exclaimed, “Truth lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it.” I fully understand that you want to present your monkey-mind interpretation of the jewel of compassion,...ego's a, b, and c definition,...based on sentient consciousness. What I'm saying is,...what if Quan Yin, the Bodhisattva of Compassion,...who implies in the Heart Sutra that real compassion is impossible without understanding Dependent Origination,...is correct? Ok,...it is obvious you do not want to have a meaningful conversation on the subject,...on the quotes mentioned,...on why those who authored those quotes did so. It may have been better for you to have title this thread "An Examination of the Three Jewels Part One- Compassion, from a Monkey mind perspective." "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao Tzu

Yes,...I suppose Sakyamuni, Lao Tzu, Shantideva, HH Dalai Lama. etc., could all be cop-outs,...for describing x,y and z, to realize compassion,...however, I much perfer their x,y,and z in contract to your a, b,and c based of cerebral centric sentient ideas of compassion,...that compassion cannot be realized until it fulfills Aaron's mundane view of compassion, which is held by the groupthink of our sick society. "it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" J Krishnamurti I disagree, that one is not considered compassionate until they pass Aaron's a, b, and c criteria for compassion. According to that a, b, and c criteria,...the most historically known enlightened persons must not ever been enlightened,...which is no big deal,....however, it is a big deal when one rejects entities like Sakyamuni, Avalokitesvara (known as the most compassionate being that ever existed), etc,...simply because what they said upsets one's own logic. IMO,...would it not be better to prove Sakyamuni, Lao Tzu, Shantideva, HH Dalai Lama, Avalokitesvara, etc., all wrong,...instead of arguing what you are arguing? In other words,...if the Dalai Lama explicity suggests that "If I have any understanding of compassion..., it all comes from studying the Bodhicharyavatara"....and the Bodhicharyvatara says that the true practice of compassion is impossible without the direct realization of emptiness,...then I'm inclined to investigated what that is about. Unlike yourself,...I have no interest in being an expert in accumulated knowledge, nor be the biggest monkey mind on the block. To me, Lao Tzu implied to let this monkey mind, along with its sensory delusions, go. Aaron says,..."We should never preclude the necessity of compassion in our life by stating that it is worthless without understanding x, y, or z." But is not Aaron thus implying that compassion is then a, b, and, c? Or to put it another way,...is not Aaron suggesting that compassion is other than what compassion is? The root of Buddhist practice is Compassion, which according to Buddha, only arises through the realization of the emptiness of inherent existence. I've seen no indication that such a statement is contrary to Daoism,...but is actually synonymous with Daoism. Your quarrel Aaron,...is with, HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara,...to name those I used in this thread who have offered a different opinion than your own. As the subject of this thread is "Three Jewels"...whose insight into compassion should I consider?

We live in a Head-Centered world. Dragons went the way of other Sky-Fliers, like Lilith and Dakini's,...the cerebral-centric don't want to know that everything they sense is meaningful, is actually meaningless.