Vmarco

As nothing is greater or less than nine,...the Nine Consciousness' are uncovered in all practices that transcend the 6 senses. The Nine Consciousness' are implied in Bon, through the 9 point swastika, through Vajrayana's nine pointed vajra, through Gurdjieff's enneagram, through the Nine Levels of Taranatha's Consciousness model, possibly related to the nine stages of the Nyingmapas, the Egyptian Ennead, and through the nature of Light itself (see 'What is Light' thread). V

Yes,...and Vajrayana also teaches of 8 levels of consciousness within alaya. The 9th,...the consciousness that is not a sense,...is beyond alaya. There are to my knowledge, no specific sources for this level of practice. What references there are, can be gleaned from various mahamudra's and Short Path activities (such as Paul Brunton's Notebook), but mostly from intimate understanding of dependent origination, emptiness, Tathagata, and Presence. None of those four can be understood without a direct realization of WHEN you are. This realization of WHEN, does not occur through the conditions of the first 6 consciousness'. In developing qualities to understand WHEN, it is advantageous to inquire about Who's Who in Duality, which when properly discerned, duality is seen as a singular, cyclical force, not two. In other words, Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. Dark yin initiates compression from cold, thus multiplying cold to create incandescence through yang's heat. The compressed heat expands, thus dividing crystallized light and yang's heat back to dark, yin cold. That is the pulse of the harmonic balanced interchange of duality. Through Emptiness perceived creation dies into Form, but at no time is form separate from emptiness, or emptiness separate from form. The 8 sense consciousness' arise from duality. Many suggest that the 8th consciousness is beyond reality,...because from the point of view of some on the 8 consciousness level, they believe they are part of a non-dual environment. For example: http://www.thetaobum...ce/page__st__96 Keep in mind,...why this post was even attempted, is to not to point to some wonderful reality beyond Brahman,...but to establish a need to inquire about the nature of Who's Who in Duality,...if for no other reason, so to verify the essence of compassion. As The Way of the Bodhisattva (Shantideva)stated: "The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is deared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." Or, "Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman V

So,...you're saying that you, and those you imagined, existed in your dream last night? No,...he who pretends the world exists (vi. to stand alone; have actual being)is ignorant, according to Buddha. In today's broadening quantum culture, only the uneducated would dare argue that the world exists. However, regardless of quantum cosmology and irrefutuable proof that, as Max Planck said a hundred years ago, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such." ,...through my own direct experience, there is no world in the Present,...it (the world) is only a perception of the past,...and the past, to me, does not exist. "Existence really is an imperfect tense that never becomes a present." Friedrich Nietzsche As for post #44 the full quote was:

Thanks for rescuing me on that. "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha

Taoism has as its goal, helping people realize their oneness with the Universe,...that man is not separate from the Universe or from Nature but is a part of it. Many see the universe to be a prison of sorts, including the Gurdjieff philosophy, Buddhism, Bon, Tantra, and others. The topic of Gurdjieff's Man levels was an ongoing conversation between Marblehead and myself,....however, it looks as if I errored by referencing it within this thread, when the ongoing conversation regarding Gurdjieff was in the http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22548-exploring-the-now/page__st__96__p__322324__hl__gurdjieff__fromsearch__1entry322324 thread In Buddhism, any identification, even identification with the oneness of universe is considered an ego delusion. I am not suggesting that one is wrong and the other correct,...just drawing a contrast. Is the universe "real?" Or is it a prison of the mind? To me, Wu is real,...while Yang/Yin (the universe) is an illusion. For Marblehead, the universe is not an illusion. It is merely a contrast of observation. Many see the world as flat, other see it as a sphere,..who is really correct,...it's simply a matter of viewpoint.

No,...VMarco is not speaking negatively about Taoism. Nor could it be said that VMarco knows nothing of Taoism. On the otherhand, it could be said that VMarco knows more about Taoism than Marblehead's westernized interpretation of Taoism, filtered through his mediocity. P.S....thanks for the permission to label you. You are obviously very upset (not very good Tao) regarding Gurdjieff's levels of man. It is unfortunate that people like yourself cling to an ego based view spirituality. Ken Wilber called it the Conspiracy of mediocity. He explained it like this: "To dare to even speak about radical transformation, let alone call other people to a higher level, is against the unstated rules. And of course, one's definitely going to be put in one's place for doing something like that. But unless the possibility of genuine transformation is actually declared, unless one is willing to demonstrate it publically and to call other people to the same, no one is even going to know that it's possible. And than unknowingly, everybody's going to be participating in the conspiracy of mediocrity. The conspiracy of mediocrity is basically the conspiracy to express your own ego instead of transcending it or letting go of it. The idea has become "if I can really emote and express my self-contriction with sincerity, I'm somehow spiritual". Actually, people who are involved in this boomeritis even deny the importance of Enlightenment or Awakening, because that's saying some states are higher than others - and we shouldn't be so judgmental. But guess what? Some states are higher. And so the entire raison d'etre gets tossed out because it offends the pluralistist ego. The spiritual experience, which ideally should be a stepping stone to less ego and greater transparency, has become a victim of our therapeutic culture, where we don't make judgements because that would hurt egoic self-esteem, and so all we do is embrace, console, and celebrate the personal self. Spiritual practice has become nothing more than a form of therapy where self-acceptance rather than ego-transcendence is the goal. And the problem is that therapists are basically pimps for samsara. They want to hold onto the egoic self-contraction and make it feel good about itself. This conspiracy of mediocrity is very unfortunate. The great promise of the human potential movement was very straightforward - there are higher human potentials. Now, from the therapeutic culture, people say, "wait a minute. you're saying there are higher potentials, so does that mean I'm lower? because that can't be right". All of a sudden it implied a judgement, and nobody's allowed to be higher because that means someone else is going to be lower. And you're not allowed to call anybody lower; therefore nobody's allowed to be higher. So the Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptence movement, which catastrophically prevents higher transformation and mystical breakthroughs. What is missing in the New Age Community is real intellectual vigor. Under the therapeutic culture, if you feel good, you're enlightened. That is mediocrity, and a conspiracy toward mediocrity." Thus, in our current therapeutic society people don't want to see that what they thought was meaningful may actually be meaningless.

There are Eight Senses, and Nine levels of consciousness. The first 6 consciousness' are the consciousness' of sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell, and thought. To realize the 7th, 8th, 9th levels, one must transcend the first 6. In psychology, the first 6 are synonymous with Maslows Lowerarchy, that which is beneath Self-actualization. Beyond Self-Actualization, which Maslow call Transcendance, and which the Psychology of the "normal" reject, is where the higher levels of consciousness are accessed. V

No,...you may have accepted some definition for enlightenment,...to me it's self explanitory,...enlightenment is having a direct understanding, as in being onto- or en- Light. Light is absolutely still. Just increase your speed to 186k mps and you will be like Buddha,...perfectly still,...neither coming or going,...eternal. Of course, to those as yourself, those who limit themselves to the first two Turnings only, Buddha said, "Those who cannot accept that the Tathāgata is eternal, cause misery." (Mahaparinirvana Sutra). Vajrayana uses all Four Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma,...not just the first Turning which introduced a path to end suffering, or the Second, on Emptiness. Vajrayana is a Short Path, whose Bee's collect honey from all applicable sources, so to realize Light in a single lifetime. The Buddha told Ananda, "You still listen to the Dharma with the conditioned mind, and so the Dharma becomes conditioned as well, and you do not obtain the Dharma-nature." "There is no Present in time" is an absolute bodhicitta aphorism,...meaning that, it cultivates right mindfulness. In the Lojong, the most important absolute bodhiciita aphorism is "treat everything you see as a dream." This duality of electrodynamic light is literally a dream. The so-called moving light in this dream is no more real than the light in your dream last night,...or the images on a theaters screen. Just like in a dream, if someone slaps you, you feel it. Can we get out of this dream? The Buddha instructed that the Six Senses is a barrier to get out, and when you are out, you (not the you that you think you are) are perfectly still. Like Light, the Tathagata has not moved a single centimeter in all eternity. How do we merge with Light? We move 186k mps, shedding all time, mass, and energy, and enter perfectly still Light. Of course, like the Buddha, that doesn't mean we have to disgard our dense dream body. We just don't take that condition into the Unconditionality of Undivided Light. This isn't about knowledge,...but gnowledge. Those who know, do not gnow. The relative is grounded in the intellect, in knowledge. Knowledge proceeds through what Buddha called the five skandhas or Aggregates, which includes sensual perceptions and conditioned experience by way of the psyche or personal consciousness. To know is to comprehend noologically, through intellect-based thought, the 6th sense. Gnowledge is to understand through metasensory awareness and unconditioned experience through the thymos or impersonal consciousness. To gnow is to understand by way of gnosis, the contection with Heart Mind. One can recognize the difference through change,...KNOWLEDGE changes,...GNOWLEDGE does not change. Knowledge is ALWAYS in the past,...whereas Gnowledge is ALWAYS in the Present. V

No,...I think that's what is called a redundancy,...like ATM machine or pizza pie.

Yes, I suppose Taoism is like Gurdjieff's Man #2,...they desire to be at harmony with the prison of life. They say man should be satisfied with the idea that he is separate from Source, but not separate from the universe, and thus the universe should be his source. Although Yang and Yin arise from the stillness of Wu, Man's place is in the illusion of Yang/Yin, not Wu. Gurdjieff's Fouth Way, Vajrayana'a Fourth Stream, or Buddhism's Fourth Turning are more about developing Man #3 for their escape so-to-say, of the cycle of perceived life, and thus end suffering, and uncover liberation. A tathagata would be Man #7 on the Gurdjieff scale,...whereas Jesus and his friend Thich Nhat Hanh are surely Man #2's. V

There is no truer statement you will hear/read in your lifetime than that "there is no Present in time" Sure, you be fortunate enough to come across another absolute truth, but it will not be truer. It is irrefutable,...by any serious refute. Why a Taoist can not see that, is a testament unto itself. V

LOL....there is a difference between pre-judge or judgmental, and judging as a reflection. What would have the Superbowl been like if quarterback Brady wasn't judged for intentional grounding on his first play? Fortunately, there are no gods,...so I could never attain such an appointment. As for Gurdjieff's hierarchy of Man,...where exactly would you place someone contented with their life as it is? There would only be two choices out of 7,....either Man #1 or #2,...so, you are scolding me for raising you to a higher level? Go figure! Interestingly,...back in the 70's I used to pass off the book The Fourth Way to many people,...not a single person could get past the prison analogy, somewhere around page 12. Non-Peakers (Maslows Self-Actualization) absolutely loathe the idea that perceived life could possibly be as a prision. V

Real truth cannot be different between two people. Personal or relative truth is always different. A key is to uncover an absolute truth,...for example, there is no Present in time. Then, even in a close-knit spiritual community, the dialogue is pivoted from the absolute truth, and not presonal or relative truth. "Relative and absolute, These the two truths are declared to be. The absolute is not within the reach of intellect, For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva 9.2 ps,...be careful about wisdom,... It literally means knowledge accumulated through philosophic or scientific learning. In other words, wisdom points to the highest and most lofty ideas of ego consciousness, whose sole purpose is to sustain itself.

Certainly! Let your monkey-mind chatter away while not touching, reading or talking in the supermarket. But remember, a supermarket like Safeway, Kroger, Albertsons,...not Target, Walmart, or Costco.

What ideas from so-called inner experience are not built on external information? Why is arguing about subjective material futile? Is not all subject-ive experience founded on conditions? For example, take the Bodhisattva viewpoint: The Way of the Bodhisatva says, "Although they have no ultimate grounds for doing so, all beings think in terms of "I" and "mine." Because of this, they conceive of "other," fixing on it as something alien, although this too is unfounded. Aside from being merely mental imputations, "I" and "other" are totally unreal. They are both illusory. Moreover, when the nonexistence of "I" is realized, the notion of "other" also disappears, for the simple reason that the two terms are posited only in relation to each other. Just as it is impossible to cut the sky in two with a knife, likewise, when the spacelike quality of egolessness is realized, it is no longer possible to make a separation between "I" and "other," and there arises an attitude of wanting to protect others as oneself, and to protect all that belongs to them with the same care as if it were one's own." Could we argue that any attachment to ideas,...whether inner (self) or outer (other) are inherently flawed? That any idea which arises from the six senses is false? Although intuiton has certainly led me to deeper inquiries,...such as in the 80's researching if one could actually think in the Now. It is impossible! No one can think in the Now. Thought is always in the past. And thus why Buddha instructed that the sense organ of thought must be transcended. V

Please understand,..."Contribute or leave" was an impersonal statement. It is fully agreed that if the subject is "How to really see yourself as you are" then a dialgue on what is "I" is surely adventageous. Absolutely,...no word games, philosophy, or beliefs necessary, required or desired. V

Yes, that happened to me. You must avoid them. If they stop you, smile, say hi, pick up something inexpensive, purchase it, and leave. Try another store later. Remember,...you cannot just stand around reading something,...no reading. V

If it doesn't matter to you, go play on another thread. In this thread it doesn't matter if you can see yourself as you really are, believe you can see yourself as you really are, or cannot see yourself as you really are. It's just a dialogue. For example, is who you "think" you are, who you really are? Or what about this youtube: Who Are You Really? Any ideas or comments about her ideas? I understand that TTB is not the safest place to share your feelings,...we both know how some members like to pounce on others feelings, on other's serious inquiries. So, contribute or leave. V