Vmarco

"when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid". 1st Century Gnostic text

The above are words of a fragmented sentient being,...nevertheless, just because you do not see stars in your daytime, doesn't mean they're not there. In other words, your return to Source is the most important thing in your life, except that you are so distracted, diverted, and dis-integrated that you do not recognize it. The return to Source is presence in the Presence of the Present. Just because very few realize this during their perceived lifetime, does not mean it is not the most important thing. The relative fact that you are a member of TTB suggests that some aspect of your aggregated self is dissatisfied with your fragmentation. But as T. S. Eliot said, "Human kind cannot bear very much reality." To summarize,...your fragmented reality, conjured from sentient beingness, which, depending on the diversions, can not achieve more than being always almost satisfied, may at some point wonder if there is anything more. Some realize that this more cannot be found in the past or anticipation of a future; an inquiry that may lead them to the greatest adventure of all, the Present. Look at a star,...we should know that not only is the light we are viewing in the past, but that because of the curvature of spectral light, it isn't even where we are looking. Relatively speaking, that is no different than the light of the monitor in front of you,...it is in the past. You cannot observe an object in the Present,...what you are viewing is merely a perceived now. The 6 Senses CANNOT detect the Present,...the 6 Senses only observe motion,...motion is within time,....there is no Present in time. It doesn't matter what you believe, or believe that perceived others believe,...the 6 Senses are not viewing the World that surrounds them, but only the World that surrounded them. The 6 Senses can only observe the past,...albeit a fraction of so-called time in the past,...it is not the Present. V

Yes,...thanks for catching that. Smell is very important. Interestingly, there is even a new security device for detecting ones "smell", supposedly as individual as a finger print. Feeling, IMO can be quite deceptive however, if it is filtered through a predisposition such as an emotional core issue. As you said, depends if things are attached to it. I heard a very interesting statement that is applicable here: EJ Gold said, "Real emotions are communicated by outward radiation of the mood, and originate through an awakened emotional center, which has no reverberational effects in other parts of the body, and is not necessary to verbally communicate the emotion. Positive and negative emotion are subjective mental states occuring in reflex, and must be verbalized and elaborately described, explained, rationalized and mentally communicated and understood. Those who can produce real emotions in themselves never communicate about emotional states in mental language; they just radiate the emotions, allowing the emotion to speak for itself. In the presence of someone who is able to produce real emotion, we experience feelings - perhaps for the first time. Very often, someone who has awakened the higher Emotional Body and who has learned to radiate emotions becomes a celebrity-guru, and people gather like cattle to bathe in the higher emotions. These higher emotions are often mistaken for some mysterious cosmic force or interpreted in some pseudo-religious way, but really they are just emotions. What a pity that human beings are so unaccustomed to emotion that they feel compelled to submissively huddle together in the warmth of the emotional radiation of someone just as mechanical as they are, but who happened to have activated, by accident, the higher Emotional Body." '

Part 1,...we should be clear and concise,...The past, present and future is NOT all happening in the now! The past, perceived present and future is all happening upon the Now! There is no Now in time, space, energy, mass, self, other, belief, or any phenomena. The Now is simply a causeless fulcrum upon which duality effects its motion, brought about by the delusion it is separate from the Now, and seeking to return to the Now, which it can never do, because the separation never occurred. Part 2,...yes, a concise language that reflects Heart Mind needs to develop, otherwise the consciouslessness of the delusion continues. V

That your opinion,...my opinion is that there is no Seven Stages of I Am or whatever in the Present. IMO, There are no beliefs, no faith, no Brahman, no god in the Present. IMO, There are no Advaitans, Buddhists, Taoists, in the Present. How's that? I read your posts in this thread and saw no indication of your understanding of the Present,...thus, you are either keeping any direct understanding of the Present to yourself, or you have not experienced flashing out of alaya. As it is unlikely that someone who has flashed would keep it a secret on a forum like this, the latter is the most likely. "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha

Yes,...although samsara continues its flow, which is change, and like a growing child, change has its pains,...there would not be suffering if one was without suffering, because of the understanding that things are as they are. In other words, Buddha implied in the first Turning of the Wheel of Dharma that suffering is a consequence of the desire for things to be other than they are. The realization of Dependant Origination, or Who's Who and When within duality, dissolves the desire for things to be other than they are. Although that could appear to be a paradox, for example, the Bodhisattva vow or wish for the liberation of all sentient beings could be construed as a desire for things to be other than they are, there is difference between desire and a wish. As mentioned in the top post, it is my interpretation that all four Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma point to the same thing,...uncovering the Present,...and then, sustaining it. However, although it is certain that the Present is without suffering, there may be levels within the higher alaya that are merely unaware of suffering,...like a positive, heavenly place, as pointed to in post #97 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22178-about-the-nature-of-non-existence/page__st__96 Contrary to the beliefs of other posters, I have no faith or belief in Buddhism,...I do not cling to it for some sort of identity. What Buddhism provides for me, is an inquiry, which must be realized through the imagined entity of V, but only realized when V's imagined entity is equal with "other" (as discussed in a Way of the Bodhisattva quote within this thread (post #12). "all matter is frozen or slowed down light" David Bohm

Actually, the politeness you demand from others would be better served if you read the previous posts before attacking. For example, post #19 says: Thus, it was already mentioned that neither had the background to convince the other. As for the importance of this topic,...what could be more important? This is the most important topic anyone can engage in. Of course for those like yourself, who give only a cursory glance at posts, sifting out a way to disagree, than yes,...you will get nothing from this most important topic. For someone to suggest this topic is unimportant, they must believe the perceived now is the only now,...and all they need to understand. For those committed to the inquiry of waking up however, they most certainly want to know as soon as possible if something they think is meaningful, may in fact be meaningless. Such a person is dedicated to the Direct or Short Path, and uncovering the absolute Present in this lifetime. "Relative and absolute, These the two truths are declared to be. The absolute is not within the reach of intellect, For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva 9.2

My initiation into Buddhism in the early 70's was with Kagyu and Mahamudra, and understand Dzogchen is quite similiar. And yes, I fully agree that the ultimate nature of all sentient beings is uncovered in the Now, Present, or Instant. Nothing surpasses the Now. The 16th Karmapa correctly said that the mind of nowness is untouched by fixations on birth and liberation. It is unshaken by projections. All the hoopla, and 84,000 aspects of teachings, are simply mind trainings to cultivate flashing out of alaya, and uncover the Present. Today, in this perceived time in duality, language and the conceptual understanding of physics makes explaining much more easier. For example, consider Steven Hawking and Jim Hartle said that since time loses characteristics that separate it from space, the concept of a beginning in time becomes meaningless. That is to say, there was no Big Bang, no singularity, no creation, no Creator, no beginning nor end, because there is no time. That is pure Mahamudra. Or how about this,...which I posted before,...Visualize a keyhole for a moment, one of those slotted holes that can be peeped through, as in old Colonial and Victorian homes. Now, describe that hole. Some may say that it has the shape of a circle with a rectangle whose width is smaller than the diameter of the circle aligned on the bottom; others could respond that the hole is surrounded by a brass plate that is attached to the door, which is connected to the wall, etc. Perhaps the hole could be looked through, so one could remark about what is seen on the other side. However, none of that actually describes the hole; all of the preceding descriptions are narratives about what is around or can be seen through the hole. Nevertheless, that is how most sentient beings perceive their own wholeness: by what is around it. There is no phenomena around the Present that somehow makes the Present the Present. As Tilopa put it,..."The clear light of Mahamudra cannot be revealed; By the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises; Of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka; The clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals." Foreget about intellectualizing on what is "clear light", as sentient beings attempt to do, like they define a hole by what's around it,...focus instead on letting go of the barriers we build against it being revealed. Dzogchen can be one of the Direct Paths,...for others it can be as a religion to cling to for their identity. "Know the state of pure and total presence to be a vast expanse without center or border." Longchenpa The Present is absent any Center or Boundary, any One or Many, any I Am or Other Am, any Here or There. V

Having 7 years of college, mostly Religious Studies, and more than 50 years of life experience, I feel I should be able to at least get the drift of what someone is discussing, or find some common ground. You are correct about understanding you,...no slight intended, but I'd have better luck with a schizophrenic. Although I use some quotes from Tolle, he does not impress me in the least. I'm actually amazed that a theist like himself even says some of the things he does. As for Hinduism, Ringo Tulku, Brahman, etc., I could also care less. I have not seen any evidence of that religions interest in the Present. The Buddha asserted the same, many times. As mentioned, Xabir has placed too much attachment to the intellectual views of theists, believers, the sciential minded, etc., to realize the Present. Those things, concepts, faith-based conditions cannot enter the Unconditionalness of the Present. Let me rephrase that,...a condition cannot enter the Unconditional,...if it was even possible, it would instantly render the Unconditional conditional. But that's how theists, believers, and the sciential minded are,...although they rant about others attempting to bring their conditions into the unconditional, they themselves insist that they get to bring their conditions (formed through the ignorance of ignorant interpretations accumulated by other conditioned wannebes, thus establishing an orthodox tradition to be upheld at all costs. Again,...there is no Present in time. If someones believes that they are "pure presence" within a time construct, like this "Seven Stages of Thusness", it's just mental masterbation. Uncovering the Present is like effortless suicide. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19890-surrender%3B-thats-what-is/page__p__282146__hl__suicide__fromsearch__1entry282146 You cannot bring all that baggage of I Am Stages, the ridiculous notion that Shentong is Hinduism, etc. with you into the Present. Don't recall any inject of hinduisn in the Mountain Doctrine or the Essence of Other Emptiness. http://www.scribd.com/doc/50703474/Essence-of-Other-Emptiness Xabir, you have much unlearning to do before having a possibility of uncovering the Present. You need what Jean Houston called developing some leaky margins around all those beliefs and labeling of yours. And for Twinner,...I'll close with a Buddhist circle jerk: "From beginningless time until now, all living beings have mistaken themselves for things and, having lost the original mind, are turned around by things." Buddha

Yes,...not lazy. Lazy would be good, as Dolano said: Yes,...contented. What Gurdjeiff called Man #2,...he who realizes he's in a prison, and aims to be one of the prison trustees. (Man #1 doesn't realize he's in a box, while Man #3 attempts to escape the box. Buddha would be Man #7, which has 3 aspects that only Man #4 and greater can fathom.

The truth is not compatible with the false, so even if it slapped you on the face, the false would not allow its recognition. Look at Xabir above,...he is so vested in a concept about I Am and a course of Seven Stages of Thusness, there is no space as it were, to be Present. Certainly, ego is part of you in all levels of alaya,...the question is, who's doing the driving,...the ego, or Buddha Nature. Ego is just an aspect of the vehicle, that believes it is the consciousness of the vehicle. V

Keep dissolving persona's until their are no more personsa's to dissolve. Again I'll mention Eckhart Tolle,..."we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself" "The truth beyond mind cannot be grasped by any faculty of mind" Tilopa

OK, to summarize,...as xabir has not experienced Presence, nor is interested in understanding from a Present point of view, he does not comprehend my posts,...and whereas VMarco has not taken the course in the Seven Stages of Thusness, V does not comprehend xabir's. VMarco would NEVER suggest that any "I Am" is connected with pure presence. Any "I Am" is part of alaya, and the Present is beyond alaya. Again,...there is no One without a Many, no self without other, no here without a there, no "I" or "I Am" beyond alaya,...the Present is proof of that. The only absolute liberation is the full recognition of alaya for what it is. Let's be clear on that,...an "I Am" (herewithin defined as an I-ness of all "others", or Oneness of the Many) which must be within alaya to be an "I Am," can understand full liberation, but not necessarily. Any "I Am" can only recognize full liberation when Present,...as already discussed in the thread on The Nature of Non-Existence http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22178-about-the-nature-of-non-existence/page__st__70 A huge problem discussed by the Buddha, was those who realized what is called I Am, like Arhats or the Brahman level of phenomenal existence, are not only unliberated, but in place that believes they are,...as expressed in several ways in the Nature of Non-Existence thread. Over and over the Buddha described Arhats as still holding on to the notion of an ego, a personality, a being and a life. I recall Buddha saying once that as began to discuss the nature of reality the Arhats who were there collapsed from the shock,...and thus unable to hear what was being pointed to. VMarco is quite certain that all those who are attached to the course on Seven Stages of Thusness will disagree. It is also certain that V's message is quite clear,...uncover the Present, by hook or crook, and all will be directly answered for you. However, keep in mind, the Present cannot be accessed through the Six Senses, and thus intellectual jargon. The intellectual jargon can lead to a myriad of special, bliss-like dimensions, where you could be a god,...but that is not the Present. Xabir, seth ananda, simple jack and vajrahridaya may all disagree. Perhaps they are all even Arhats. So what. You must uncover the Present for yourself. As Voltaire said, "It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." If you wish to be a Trustee within the Box, then do what you are doing,...but if you want out of the prison of the Box,...uncover the Present. Truth is not ineffable, but only denied to protect the false. "If you go on doing what you're doing now, you are very likely to go on getting the same results, as you are getting now. If you want something different, you must do something different, and keep varying your behaviour until you get the result that you want." V

It is in the Present. And there is no Present in Time. To paraphrase,...do not seek Buddha Nature, but seek and find all the barriers you have built against it.

All realizations within the alayas are false. LOL The alayas are in the past. Wei Wu Wei said, "Phenomenally, we can know no present, as it must be in the 'past' before our senses can complete the process of recording it, leaving only a suppositional past and future; noumenally, there is no question of 'past' or 'future,' but only a presence that knows neither 'time' nor 'space.' " You gnow you have flash out of alaya when you flash out of alaya. You're Present in the presence of your Presence. We all have an inherent Buddha nature, which is within the Present,...the Absolute Present. V

Of course,...my apology for the pearls. I should have known better. V

I understand that many people get their facts from David Barton and the Wallbuilders. Christianity in early America was my favorite subject in college,...I majored in Religious Stidies. A Deist like Paine, Jefferson, Franklin etc., did not believe in a God (theist), but in a Creator. However, if they were alive today, without today's religious indoctrination and fear of upsetting Christocrats, I'd suspect they'd be Humanists or Brights. As for your statement above, you obviously did not read my post. "He [the Rev. Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." Franklin's Autobiography "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin Ethan Allen stopped his own wedding until the presiding judge affirmed that "God" referred to the God of Nature and not to the God of the Bible.