Vmarco

First,...you are confused or confusing me with "I Am"....a subject you broached in another thread,...from which my response was incorrectly interpreted. As for Nagarjuna,...like "I Am", you are viewing his statements out-of-context. I agree that a condition cannot establish the Unconditional,...just a Divided Light or phenomena doesn't establish Undivided Light or noumena. "Furthermore, real permanence is not a permanent non-thing, which is the mere opposite of impermanence. It is also not the compounded permanence that is a permanence of continuum. It is also not a permanent effective thing, asserted by [non-Buddhist]Forders, that does not occur among objects of knowledge. It is also not a negative permanence that is a mere meaning-generality. It is also not asserted as the likes of a positive self-powered permanence. [Rather] it is devoid of proliferations, the immutable basic element released from the proliferations of impermanent positive effective things and negative permanent non-things. Though it is released from the signs of permanence and released from the proliferations of permanence, it is immutable, and hence is solely-permanent." Taranatha

For those committed to the First Turning, that is, beginners practicing the preliminaries, learning to apply the 8 Fold Path is certainly admirable. As Meditation is a path to Appreciation, so to is the 8 Fold Path a ground for uncovering the Four Noble Truths. I wholly agree that the realization of Emptiness is not a requirement for practicing the 8 Fold Path,...but the realization of Emptiness is a requirement for the direct understanding of the Four Noble Truths. Perhaps for the majority of Buddhists, a sole focus on the 8 Fold Path is the extent of their cultivation in this lifetime,...or at least what they have been informed as such. As a conseqience of that narrow view, concepts regarding compassion are relative, mundane, patrifocally formed ideals considered acceptable. However, that is not the compassion of a Bodhisattva. Shantideva: "The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." Unlike you proposed, real compassion does not arise from Thinking, Feeling, nor Acting,...it does not arise from the Skandhas. Unfortunately, the practice of the 8 Fold Path has been contrued in such a way that many have been indoctrinated that this relative preparation is the goal,...when it is not,...and thus Sakyamuni has been taken out of context, as if he came to teach prisoners to be more content prisoners,. Sakyamuni's message was one of letting go of prison,...the prison does not exist. He did not, if the sutras are any indication, teach appeasing, coddling, distraction, denial, or attachment to maya. Sakyamuni could not have possibly wanted humanity to trudge along, identifying with their thinking, feelings, and acting as if those characteristics of the skandhas are real, and offer anything true. Your mundane, thought inspired notion of compassion is well accepted in today's society. I agree, as you said, "there are many good paths besides Buddhism which are compassion-based"....what I'm saying is that they are not real compassion from a full spectrum Buddhists point of view. In addition, I fully honor your cerebral constructs of compassion,...but be clear, they are not Buddhist, in the purest sense. Your posts indicate to me that your idea of Buddhism is quite restrictive and narrow,...which is considered quite acceptable in today's inter-faithed, profoundly sick society, seeking to celebrate the personal self. The Buddhism I practice is fundamental. For example, the Heart sutra instructs that to understand the compassion of a Bodhisattva, one must have a direct understanding of what is Form and Empty of Form,....it doesn't say compassion arises from direct thinking, direct feeling, or direct sensing. It is irrefutable that compassion is not, nor can be, what you think,...but it's quite difficult showing people what they "think" is meaningful, may actually be meaningless,...and so I insert quotes as often as possible,...because I have absolutely no interests in "my truth", relative truth, object-ive truth,...any so-called truth that changes, was never true to begin with. During the past 37 years, I've used Absolute Bodhicitta Atisha aphorims daily,...such as "Between meditations, treat everything as an illusion." I do not consider anything that arises from my 6 senses as either true or reliable. I have zero interest in personal truth. "Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman "Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces." Chögyam Trungpa "...everbody thinks that compassion is important, and everyone has compassion. True enough, but the Buddha gave uncommon quintessential instructions when he taught the methods for cultivating compassion, and the differences are extraordinarily important." Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha V

To state, "First there is a mountain" implies that one is in ignorance,...that they believe the dream is real. In meditation, if properly done, "there is no mountain." However, to truly understand the emptiness of the mountain, is to understand the form of the mountain. Enlightenment is not realizing the mountain existed as form or emptiness,...but that it never existed. Enlightenment is simply a awareness of the Present. No mountain ever existed in the Present. There is no Present in time. V

So, you wish to maintain that everything that is transient is not illusory? Hey, my apology for your feeling a need to retreat into a corner. I'm very willing to listen,...please list some of these transient things that are not illusory. V

You appeared to have confused yourself, as I suspected. I'll repeat the quote from post #13: Sogyal Rinpoche tells us that the practice of Tonglen depends upon our ability to awaken within ourselves the reality of compassion. Just as we cannot perform the Unity Breath until we can feel Love, we cannot practice Tonglen until we truly can feel compassion. Both I, and HH Dalai Lama, Robert Thurman, Shantideva (as per post #13) would disagree that, as you state, "Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Noble eight-fold path." Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Four Noble Truths (that is, Dependent Origination). Buddhism would not consistantly state that without direct realization of Emptiness, compassion is impossible, if it were not the case. The Heart sutra would not imply that the compassion of a Bodhisattva is unrealizable without direct understanding that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. It's unfortunate that you contrive that I "market your own interpretation and brand of Buddhism." This is a reason why I liberally use quotes. Many, if not most however, appear to approach Buddhism in a very dogmatic way,...and are tethered to exact wording in sutras, translated and written by patriarchs who thought the Earth was flat. Not all Buddhists are attached to the concept of "inseparability of the relative and absolute." For example, the Mountain Doctrine is quite clear on the separability of phenomena and noumena. However for those focused on the First Turning of the Wheel, and even the Second Turning,...this concept of inseparability appears dogmatic. The absolute can be said to be contained in the relative,...but for anyone aware of Dependent Origination, the relative is not contained in the absolute. Of course, a sentient-centric being will not understand this. However, it is fully compatable with all sutras,...as if on a level invisible to those who have not realized why Form is Empty, and Empty is Form,...which is fully cognizable through the understanding of Light. Whereas you think that "The practice of living as best as one can guided by the Noble 8-fold path is Tonglen" others have a different interpretation,...that it is a practice to develop and recognize Appreciation. But of course,...for those focused on the First and/or Second Turnings of the Wheel, Tonglen is practiced in the way you mentioned. It is erronous, and misleading to say that "one begins to think, feel and act in a more compassionate manner." Compassion that arises from thinking, feeling, and acting, is not real compassion. Real Compassion can only arise or be uncovered through understanding Emptiness. If one does not directly understand Emptiness, what they think, feel and act is merely pseudo-compassion. Your rhetoric is obviously very important for beginners to Buddhism. My wish is to not attract them to my posts. I have no desire to teach, nor interact with beginners. Although I respect and appreciate those focused on the First and/or Second Turnings of the Wheel,...my posts pivot from all Four Turnings. For those from strictly Theravada and Mahayana traditions, such dialogue is often upsetting,...and thus it is always my wish that they quickly become aggitated with my posts, and simply move on. Some here e-mail me on the side, where some aspects are gone into more depth. And also keep in mind, I didn't happen upon this TTB forum, but was invited, specifically to share a broader view Buddhism, in the tradition of Sakyamuni himself,..."Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations." V

Sorry if Post #13 was somehow not clear enough,...it did not say Tonglen is a practice for realizing compassion, but that I agree with Sogyal Rinpoche, in that Tonglen practice depends on compassion already uncovered. As Sogyal Rinpoche said, "Once we have awakened our compassion, we are now ready for the practice of Tonglen." Although he added, that compassion is much more difficult to achieve than we might think. That is awesome that you "have mastered Compassion." I must assume you mean in the Buddhist context, as mentioned in Post #13,...that is, compassion is inherent to our Unborn Awareness. I dissagree that Tonglen is "specifically" for dissolving attachments, fear, anger, jealousy and clinging to a sense of self before others. To me, Tonglen is as a refuge or ground for uncovering Absolute Bodhicitta,...although many become fixated on the preliminaries. For those who teach their interpretation of Tonglen, like Pema Chodron, their pseudo-tonglen practice does not include Absolute Bodhicitta as a real potential, but only the cultivation of a passive ego to sustain and perpetuate her Tonglen workshops. The Heart Awareness which desires to fulfill the longing of happiness in others'(subconscious), is simply a consequence of understanding Dependent Origination.,...or the nature of emptiness, which encapcilates the same thing. Thus I agree, that fruition of the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points, accumulatively gives rise to absolute bodhicitta, for those unattached to the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points. However, those attached to the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points as aspects of real compassion, have failed to understand Tonglen, and do not understand the compassion of a Bodhisattva. The compassion of a Bodhisattva is impossible without directly experiencing that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. Because of humanity's access to a physical understanding of the nature of light, over the last 60 years, there has been an increasing prepatory vibration leading to an awareness able to recognize why Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. Understanding the nature of Divided Light, is awareness of Dependent Origination. V

Whoa!! First,...everything that is transient is illusory. Second,...Heart-Mind, can, and can only, be experienced beyond the skandhas. Heart-Mind is directly conscious of the Present,...the skandhas and the six senses are only, and can only, be aware of the past. A Tathagata is consciousness of the Present. The Heart Mind,...which is a level above Heart Center, cannot be penetrated by that of the skandhas. You're not grasping what is being pointed to,...for example: Sogyal Rinpoche tells us that the practice of Tonglen depends upon our ability to awaken within ourselves the reality of compassion. Just as we cannot perform the Unity Breath until we can feel Love, we cannot practice Tonglen until we truly can feel compassion. Ok,...so all these folks advocating Tonglen practice to realize compassion, are putting the cart before the horse, like the human-centric put "i think" before the I am. Tonglen practice can only be understood after compassion. So,...how does one acquire or uncover compassion? Buddhism is quite specific. "The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is deared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva "Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman In other words,...without the direct understanding of Dependent Origination, any attempt to act compassionately is useless,...and only reflects egoic concepts, all of which are founded on sustaining ego. "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha

If there isn't,...(that is, no difference between the skandhas and the Heart-mind) why did Buddha, over and over, stress the difference. Because the Heart-Mind cannot be understood through the 6 Senses.

That which just "be's" has little opportunity to wake-up from being. Just being is great if your goal is to be an upstanding prisoner. Unfortunately, the idea or groupthink of "being" has earned ego much time in its struggle to sustain illusion. Alan Watts was totally erronious with his cats don't compete,...he obviously never watch more than one cat interact with anything. He certainly shows no understanding of Tao in that quote. But, I'm sure it was helpful for people in the 60's. Keep in mind, that if it was 1975, and you traveled back in time to 1875, everything would be fine,...however, if someone today went back to 1975, no one would even see them,...because people today are vibrating at a much higher level of beingness. Of course, their understanding of this has yet to catch up. V

No,...I find science continually verifying my direct experiences. Dark Energy is expanding/radiative,...it's the Yin aspect of the manifest. Dark Matter is moving/gravitating towards form. Dark Energy is the cycle of sphere/particle to torus/wave. Dark Matter is the cycle of torus/wave to sphere/particle. Is the manifest universe a "materialists illusion?' Of course! Divided Light does not exist. The cyclical movement of Divided Light arises from the perceived separation from Undivided Light. The condition of Divided Light wants union or unity with Undivided Light,...which can NEVER occur, because Undivided Light is Unconditional. The only "reconnecting" of Divided Light with Undivided Light occurs through the dissolution of Divided Light,...that is to say, Wholeness is beyond the sum of opposites. Let me put that another way,...Divided Light see light moving 186k mps,...where from Undivided Light's point of view (the view of the thing being observed) it travels no distance, in no time, and thus has no need for speed. V

From my observations (and keep in mind that I majored in Religious Studies, not science), 1. expansion or radiation is faster than contraction or gravity, thus the universe is seen more as expanding, and 2. as we are expanding our looking, we see further, but will never reach an end. A vacuum is just a physical method for measuring the electrodynamic spectrum (Divided Light). Undivided Light cannot be measured,...only motion can be measured. Virtual Light is not Undivided Light. Virtual implies energy or force,...Undivided Light, like Wu Wei, is still. Virtual light is a projection,...a simulation,..not real light. Undivided Light is "still" in the projector,...as a fulrum is still under the lever of a seesaw. The fulcrum does not "cause", ...but causelessly allows duality to effect its apparent motion. True reality is in the Present. Divided light is always in the past. The Six Senses can only sense the past. What humanity called the Now, is merely a perceived Now. Only beyond the Six Senses can the Present be observed. Again,...there is no Present, Now, or Instant in time. As I experienced it, Clear Light as associated with the 8th sense. Whereas white light corresponds to the 7th sense. Undivided Light or Wu Wei would actually be considered as the 9th consciousness, which is dimensionless. Yes,...I understand that most people consider motion to be real, not an illusion. To further upset this notion of motion, nothing has moved in all eternity. The perception of motion is Divided Light reproducing itself 186k mps. Buddha attempted to teach this many times; and is foundational to the understanding of the term Tathagata. A Tathagata is one who goes and comes, beyond going and coming, into complete going and coming, where enlightenment is welcomed. It is an understanding of the reverse flow of forward-moving things,...or better said, the reverse flow of forward reproducing things. I agree that Change is Empty. And that higher consciousness is not Divided Light. The lower consciousness', such as the Six Senses, are totally Divided Light. Don't know who Pam Reynolds is. I exited the physical form through that which is associted with the thymus gland. It was not a mental experience. Keep in mind that the human-centric view of a vertical "chakra" system is usually misinterpreted as 7 or 9 vortex points from lower to higher. More correctly, the Chakra system should be viewed in context of Divided Light,...symbolized by the Magen David or Aquarian Star,...that is, two triangles,...a lower and upper of three points each, interconnected by a 7th point,...the 4th chakra. Overlay the chakra system on an electrodynamic templete showing red or low frequency to the left, and violet or high frequency to the right. The Heart chakra (green) is in the middle. Even more correctly, the chakra system should be view as the nine-interlocking triangles of the Sri Yantra,...the bindu point being the Heart chakra. Near speed-of-light OBE can be facilitated through color recognition,...that is, reds/oranges are associated with moving towards; while violet/blues are moving away. The ONLY way to Clear Light is through Green, when balanced harmoneously with Red and Violet. The so-called 7th or thousand petal crown chakra is a dead-end for anyone attached to the idea of using the 7th as a fulcrum or stepping stone to higher consciousness. The ONLY fulcrum to Higher Consciousness is through the 4th,...the Heart Center. To go beyond the Green Ray, there must be a harmonic balanced interchange between the 5th, 6th, and 7th, and the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd,...only then is the threshold available to Clear Light. Even the MesoAmerican Maya appeared to recognize this, in that god 7 (the Heart chakra) has 3 balance three points,...and thus the awareness of 9. Nine is the number of Divided Light. Nothing in the universe is greater or less than Nine. As I broached this larger subject,....in reverse: Clear light descends (condenses, conveges, inhales, charges, accumulates, moves towards time), unfolding through the Green Ray,...the one without a twin, and the Green splits into Red and Violet,...thus the 3 zero planes of physical reality. As the Green Ray splits, there is also, simultaneously, the manifestation of the other rays, which on an ennegram are 142875. In respect to the enneagramic model, the 4th chakra is point 9,...the 1st chakra is point 6, and the 7th chakra is point 3. There is no manifestation of matter before nine, nor is there any manifestation beyond nine. Everything in nature must add up to nine, no more, no less. In Mayan culture, this is symbolically seen through the cosmology recorded in the Popol Vuh. The creative force within duality arises through the perceived separation from zero. To create progeny, the nine gods, that is the six lesser or boundary gods who rule the six convex planes (enneagram 142875), and god seven (enneagram 936), the three aspects of zero, must work as one to propagate the many. V

Appreciate the dialogue. As for "Wu Wei comes from Emptiness." Not exactly,...Nether Wu Wei, nor Undivided Light is "empty" in any humanistic sense. The Mountain Doctrine uses the term "Other emptiness." Phenomena is empty,...the universe is empty,...Wu wei is Presence. It is empty of the conditions of phenomena,...but it is not empty. Undivided Light is proof that no god, by all accepted definitions, exists. Spirit, or the in-out breath within the universe, does not exist in Undivided Light or Wu Wei. God and light is only mentioned once in canonized Christianity,...in the late 2nd century apology 1John, "God is light and in him is no darkness." That's Yang,...duality's light,...not Undivided Light. Undivided Light cannot be detected with anything attached to the 5 Aggregates. Undivided Light cannot be seen, felt, tasted, heard, touched, or known. The 6 senses cannot experience stillness. My NDE was different than most in that before the NDE I surrendered all beliefs. I had no expectations, no agenda, no hope, no fear,...I was not hung up with what Robert Monroe called Religious Terminus, or the lower 5th dimension. My experience was that the way of ascension is the reverse of the descension. I realized the Zero-Point of the electrodynamic spectrum, and having unwittingly let go of the Six Senses before hand, accessed the 7th and 8th consciousness', allowing the experience of Undivided Light. V

If Wu Wei is not Undivided Light, then it is a manifestation of Divided Light and Yang/Yin,...and thus not the Tao. Because Lao Tzu was not using the term Undivided Light, does not imply that Wu wei is not Undivided Light. Likewise with Yang/Yin. Although Buddhist "Form and Empty" are easier to see as synonyms for Divided Light. Glad you read the explanations,...and hopefully they included the fuller versions from the 'What is Light' thread. The effect of the recognition of Undivided Light (what is c), provides a ground that uncovers bodhicitta. Undivided Light means that there is no Present in time. Such an understanding leads towards a Humanity that considers "others." "All the joy the world contains Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself." Shantideva 8.129

The best response I've heard regarding this question was from EJ Gold, who said: "Real emotions are communicated by outward radiation of the mood, and originate through an awakened emotional center, which has no reverberational effects in other parts of the body, and is not necessary to verbally communicate the emotion. Positive and negative emotion are subjective mental states occuring in reflex, and must be verbalized and elaborately described, explained, rationalized and mentally communicated and understood. Those who can produce real emotions in themselves never communicate about emotional states in mental language; they just radiate the emotions, allowing the emotion to speak for itself. In the presence of someone who is able to produce real emotion, we experience feelings - perhaps for the first time. Very often, someone who has awakened the higher Emotional Body and who has learned to radiate emotions becomes a celebrity-guru, and people gather like cattle to bathe in the higher emotions. These higher emotions are often mistaken for some mysterious cosmic force or interpreted in some pseudo-religious way, but really they are just emotions. What a pity that human beings are so unaccustomed to emotion that they feel compelled to submissively huddle together in the warmth of the emotional radiation of someone just as mechanical as they are, but who happened to have activated, by accident, the higher Emotional Body."

He Shou Wu I personally recommend it. Take 3000mg per day http://www.dragonherbs.com/prodinfo.asp?number=542 Suggest you use it for at least 6 months without interruption. As He Shou Wu also rejunvenates the thymus gland, oxytocin rushes may become common.

Only Divided Light is warm,...Undivided Light is neither warm nor cold. Music does not exist outside of the nature of things. Wu Wei did not "vibrate a sound" and creation was spawned. Buddha explained it well: "From beginningless time until now, all living beings have mistaken themselves for things and, having lost the original mind, are turned around by things." Shurangama sutra V

No, you cannot say that (LOL). Evangelism is a Christian term,...you could say "MFPOS proselytizing atheist SOB", and I wouldn't object. However, I do agree that you come off as an evangelist, because of your clinginess to Christian concepts. Of course, that does not make you better or worse than a "MFPOS proselytizing atheist SOB",...because you are both arguing beliefs. For example,...I understand that there is no god,...but I'm not an atheist, because atheists "believe" in no god. I could be labled a Buddhist in that I neither believe nor dis-believe in a god,...(and use a path of practice and spiritual development, largely based on the oral instructions of Sakyamuni Buddha, which lead to the understanding of both the relative and absolute nature of reality.) Belief in a god is a belief that there is a creation. And yet there is no creation,...just a dream. Non-believers in a god also believe in a creation, although one that happened without a creator. What they fail to reason, is that all beliefs are dishonest. If a belief were true, it would not be a belief. V

God is easy to explain,...just look up what the word points to in a dictionary. From that definition, it's also easier to understand the concept. God (god), n., 1. A being (condition) conceived as the omnipotent (condition), omniscient (condition) originator and ruler (condition) of the universe (condition), the principal object (condition) of faith and worship (conditions) in monotheistic religions (conditions). 2. The force (condition), effect (condition), or a manifestation or aspect (conditions) of this being (condition). 3. A being of supernatural powers (condition) or attributes (conditions), believed in and worshiped (conditions) by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality (conditions). 4. An image of a supernatural being; an idol (conditions). 5. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed (conditioned). 6. A very handsome man (condition). 7. A powerful ruler or despot (conditions). 8. Used to express disappointment, disbelief, frustration, annoyance (conditions). Everything about god is a condition,...even the Christian concept in the late second century apology 1John 1:5,...god is light, and in him is no dark,...which defines their god as purely Yang,...that is, the male half of duality,...but Light as Wu Wei or the Unconditional fulcrum upon which duality's light effects its motion,....is not separated from dark,...Creation, through the nurturance of darkness, dies into light. The Patriarchy wants to deny the rhythmic balanced interchange of nature, by indoctrinating ideas like light conquering dark. They don't want to know that all phenomena, through the nurturance of darkness, dies into light. Polarity's Yang light does not hold within itself the potential to birth, for it is a result already spawned through Yin's darkness. Unfortunately, a prevalant human construct suggests that light is good and dark is evil,...not because it is, but because to understand the truth would wreck the fragile fabric of society's patriarchial brewed philosophical and religious beliefs they cling to for their identity. Moving, incandescent objects are borne from moving, dark, objectless space. All incandescent Yang is surrounded by Yin's dark. Where is it ever true that light conquers dark? There is no amount of light that can illuminate all dark, for in Duality, darkness always surrounds it. Rudolph Steiner once said that light was the antipathic aspect of polarity, whereas darkness is its sympathic expression. To me, Buddhist is basically honest about the concept of god. Does that make Buddhists superior? Yes! They're honest enough to get past the god meme, and move on. Theists are still stuck in the meme. V