Vmarco

You appear quite disinformed about about Dependent Origination, its purpose, and what Buddha taught. It is also outrageous how you have, like Vajrahridaya, developed an attachment to Emptiness as a goal. Buddha expressed His experience of enlightenment in one of two ways, either in terms of having understood the Four Noble Truths, or in terms of having understood the nature of dependent origination,...each are simply principals of dualistic causality,...and are merely intended uncover what is beyond the skandhas. Their is no permanent self within the sentient self. Even though a few, like Avalokiteshvara, could understand Dependent Origination quite easily, for most sentient beings, their bizarre concepts of things made is very difficult,...so Buddha had to address it like a kindergarten teacher doing ABC's with imbeciles. Most mature Buddhists have said, "it is important to remember that dependent origination is essentially and primarily a teaching that has to do with the problem of suffering and how to free ourselves from suffering, and not a description of the evolution of the universe." Form is empty, and empty is form,....if you disagree with this basic Buddha statement, than you disagree with Buddha. From emptiness, a substance unseen, a division of unwinded form, reaches a concave optical boundary where it begins to multiply, winding spectra into form. In no way does this contradict Dependant Origination,...it only contradicts the teachings of Lineages since the 12th century. Not only are your views of duality strange,...it strange who sharply you deny the Tao on a Tao forum. I never said emptiness creates (that's your misinterpetation of the cyclic flow between form and emptiness),...the only time I recall using the term "creator" was in the context that their can be no creator without the illusion of time,...also consistent with Dependent Origination. He who sees dependent origination sees the Dharma,...and you dear poster, haven't a clue about Dependent Origination, or the nature of duality. V

Please don't take offense, but your comment about quoting from books,...and quoting from books was precious. Ok,...I see you have a bizarre idea about emptiness, and believe that idea because "most schools" accept it,...Yes,...it's very easy to get caught up in some groupthink, or media-ted through self-proclaimed authorities. For me, I could not, in all honest call myself a Buddhist,...but I do see myself as a Freethought Buddhist,...that is, I have a very broad view of sutras and Mahamudras. My understanding of emptiness comes from various sutras and Mahamudras,...and not Traditions, Lineages, or any current Buddhist or non=dual business. Form is empty, and empty is form,...through that understanding according to the Heart sutra, one can recognize a Bodhisattva,...thus one reason I consider that text important,...the other reason is that in the Heart sutra Buddha says, the most important thing, known to all Buddhas in the three periods of time, is, Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!... That is the definition of Tathagata,... "to go, to come, beyond going and coming, into complete going and coming, where enlightenment is welcomed" Any other definition is misinformation,...just ask Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje. In the context of the Heart sutra,.. Emptiness is a substance unseen Emptiness is the unwinded aspect of divided light Emptiness is not an absolute Neither emptiness nor form exists on its own Emptiness is the Vidyadhara of wisdom From emptiness all form arises Emptiness has no "i" Emptiness does not feel, for it is the cycle of unwinded form Emptiness is the yin, that cycles into yang Emptiness is the unseen aspect of duality Only through the understanding of Emptiness, does one uncover the threshold of non-duality Yes,...this is not a competition,...if you have already uncovered your light,...fine,...if not,...why not? Can we share ideas without them offending someones beliefs, lineages, or personal knowledge of great enlightened beings. It always comes down to this,...how honest can one be? Two fully honest people of dissimiliar backgrounds could realize a level to do miraculous things in a short amount of time. What an adventure honesty would be. V

1How am I ignoring appearances, relativity,...I must use the words duality, skandhas, divided light, etc., in every paragraph. Appearences, relativity, etc., should be high on the list of any discussion about Who we are,... to get anywhere close to recognizing what's real, we must be able to discern what's false,...Easterners call it neti-neti,...seeing the false as the false eventually uncovers something true.' 2. That is why I used ACIM,...the difference between Undivided and divided Light can be a quite difficult thing to grasp, let alone understand,...because although duality's motion is manifested from the perception of separation, there really is no separation,...which includes, that because there is no separation, and that duality really doesn't exist, duality is not part of Undivided Light, even though it effects its motion upon the fulcrum of Undivided Light. 3. Why would a lever be an inherent aspect of a fulcrum? It's just a fulcrum. Impersonal, causeless, dimensionless, changeless, Unconditional, Presence, etc. For some reason, everyone that I heard of, who became aware of this fulcrum,...the Clear, Undivided Light,...agree on having accessed it through metasensory awareness beyond the skandhas. So, an inquiry into the nature of these skandhas seem prudent. 4 An example? Allow two bar magnets to come together,...what seems to the sensory apparatrus as two opposites merging, is actually magnet ends cancelling each other out at the point of union, and the pole ends are still opposite. Fundamentally, duality consists of an equal interchange of positive and negatives. Most all positives in nature are visible or detectable,...whereas most negatives are not so detectable. The analogy of Hope and Fear is an ancient one,...for example, in the 12th century, Tilopa said, "the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear.' However, it's proably best to stick with object-ive, empirical reality for clarity about the subject of Divided Light. Although 19 + (-19) = 19 + (-19) can be expressed that way,...in nature, 19 positive elements added to their 19 negative anti-mass = 0. 5 In Cosmolgical Architecture, everything is expressed through its imbalance. Balance is stillness, and no object, no phenomena, is still,...it's all in motion. No element is truly at rest, because no "object" can be at rest. The Buddha is a Tathagata because he can view the reverse flow of foward moving things,..that is, come back into himself, simultaneously as he goes our,...an awareness where no object/phenomena exists (that is, perceived to exist by the senses). Great art is considered to have a creative tension,....Perfectly balanced art would be something the senses could not see. Yes, the word harmony would be much better. In the Secret of Light book I mentioned,...he used the term "harmonic balanced interchage." Which to me says, a balanced harmony,..not a balanced polarity. 6 There is no Present in Time. I realized that in the 80's while in a Philosophy class (I majored in Religious Studies), ...there was a question on Nowness, and I argued that no one can think in the now or present. Thought is always in the past and arises from the past. Of course I'm talking about micro-seconds, and synapse speeds...but the past nevertheless. By the end of that semester I realized that we do not perceive the world around us, but the world that surrounded us. The statement, There is no Present in Time, is what it is,...in time there cannot be a Present, Instant, or Now. It's sort of related with the Uncertainty Principal,...you cannot observe a particle and wave at the same time. Here, you cannot obseve the Present and Time at the same time, ...and as time is in motion, and the senses can only sense motion, the senses cannot observe the Present. 7There is no past in the Present,...never. I've had many experiences in the Present,...and then re-entered the past, and talked about it. I may have had several Tathagata moments of actually interacting with people while in the Present,...but I always end up with a thought (a bad habit), and thus back in time,...however, I'd say I do not see things quite the same as the "Twenty of Twenty." 8. I mentioned that in post #109 http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19523-a-question-to-the-buddhist-schollars/page__st__96__p__276120__hl__trapper__fromsearch__1entry276120 V

Do you know what a circular agrument is? Muslims, for example, unquestioningly accept the Shahada, that is, that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger. To understand the dynamics of that, simply ask a Muslim why he believes in the Qur’an, and he will say, “Because the Qur’an is the infallible words of Allah written by his prophet Muhammad.” If you continue the inquiry and request that he divulge how he knows that Muhammad is Allah’s prophet, the Muslim will, without the slightest pondering, respond that he knows that Muhammad is Allah’s prophet because it says so right in the Qur’an. This is a circular reasoning common to all three Abrahamic religions and their hundreds of denominations. They believe that their Holy Book is the correct Holy Book, and only their Holy Book correctly describes god. My responses to you are not circular,...although I won't deny you see them as such. However I repeat my previous response,...no where have I advanced myself as enlightenment,...but you are advocating the idea that you can recognize enlightened beings,...which, besides saying you can,...you have not shared why you believe that. When I use the term enlightenment, I'm referrng to an Awareness of Bodhi,...sort of a Buddhist definition. Of course I understand that their are many views besides the Buddhist one. For example, to Kant, “Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-incurred immaturity.” To a pediphile, enlightenment maybe your victim seeing you as a lovely, devoted person. For Priests and Monks, I suppose enlightenment is about appeasing, avoiding, and tolerance of all defilements. For me, bodhi is the key. You say enlightenment is seen through actions,...but I say that all sensory impressions are usually false. A Bodhisattva,...that is one with either a burning wish for enlightenment, or one who has attained bodhi, make a vow,... Listen carefully,...the Bodhisattva vow is the committment to the liberation of all sentient beings. How could the appeasing Priests and Monks of your idea of enlightenment ever liberate anything through their attachments to the skandhas? The fact is, most ego centered persons would find Bodhisattvas quite offensive for shining light upon anything that stepped between a sentient being and their direct experience. An authentic Bodhisattva would be the most Righteously Intolerant person you ever met. And with such a person, you would be real,...you would not have to labor anymore to hold together a reality that does not exist. I'd doubt that more than .4% percent of the worlds population could recognize an authentic enlightened being,...not to say that they would be the same,...but there would similiar charcaterists,...as I said,...they would be intolerant of anything that stepped between a sentient being and that sentient beings direct experience. As I have said,...an experience born of belief, can only be experienced through the condition of that belief. V

Gee Aaron,...that's alot of worry about ego motives, worry that someone is right or wrong, or that this has anything to do with pride (or its opposite, humility). Although I have not claimed to be enlightened (I even mentioned somewhere a day or two ago, that I don't see myself as enlightened) your predispositions see me as pompous, and callous. I see myself as compassionate. Chögyam Trungpa said, “Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces.” I would question your ability to recognize an enlightened person. From your posts, you appear to resonate more towards mediocrity. Ken Wilber said (in case you missed it): "To dare to even speak about radical transformation, let alone call other people to a higher level, is against the unstated rules. And of course, one's definitely going to be put in one's place for doing something like that. But unless the possibility of genuine transformation is actually declared, unless one is willing to demonstrate it publicallyand to call other people to the same, no one is even going to know that it's possible. And than unknowingly, everybody's going to be participating in the conspiracy of mediocrity. The conspiracy of mediocrity is basically the conspiracy to express your own ego instead of transcending it or letting go of it. The idea has become "if I can really emote and express my self-contriction with sincerity, I'm somehow spiritual". Actually, people who are involved in this boomeritis even deny the importance of Enlightenment or Awakening, because that's saying some states are higher than others - and we shouldn't be so judgemental. But guess what? Some states are higher. And so the entire raison d'etre gets tossed out because it offends the pluralistist ego. The spiritual experience, which ideally should be a stepping stone to less ego and greater transparency, has become a victim of our therapeutic culture, where we don't make judgements because that would hurt egoic self-esteem, and so all we do is embrace, console, and celebrate the personal self. Spiritual practice has become nothing more than a form of therapy where self-acceptance rather than ego-transcendence is the goal. And the problem is that therapists are basically pimps for samsara. They want to hold onto the egoic self-contraction and make it feel good about itself. This conspiracy of mediocrity is very unfortunate. The great promise of the human potential movement was very straightforward - there are higher human potentials. Now, from the therapeutic culture, people say, "wait a minute. you're saying there are higher potentials, so does that mean I'm lower? because that can't be right". All of a sudden it implied a judgement, and nobody's allowed to be higher because that means someone else is going to be lower. And you're not allowed to call anybody lower; therefore nobody's allowed to be higher. So the Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptence movement, which catastrophically prevents higher transformation and mystical breakthroughs. What is missing in the New Age Community is real intellectual vigor. Under the therapeutic culture, if you feel good, you're enlightened. That is mediocrity, and a conspiracy toward mediocrity." In our current therapeutic society people don't want to see that what they thought was meaningful may actually be meaningless. V

That's a great insight,...but unfortunately, most will interpret that as the perceived now, the sentient now of objects, or "set" within which the illusion of duality moves. Yes,...There is no Now, Instant, or Present in Time,...to think otherwise is on of the greatest tragedies obscuring our Heart-Minds. "in the valley of the blind, the one-eyed person is treated for her illness" V

Did I say I'm a Mahasiddha? No,...but I did mention that you are like a Tea Party fanatic who comes up with the strangest as hominem so to evade what was said. Perhaps you don't feel more than 5600 posts as being personally invested,...others might see it differently. And not only are you invested here, you mention other boards where you champion the cause of knocking down those who claim to have had a direct experience, because it doesn't match your Lineage and "the plenty of Sakyamuni's, Tilopa's, Saraha's, Padmasambhava's, Quan Yin's and other enlightened people in your Lineage." A non-competitive or cooperative way of dialoguing with someone who may have claimed to have had a direct experience (outside your Lineage) would be to inquire about it. Of course, if one has no understanding of any absolute truths, and rely soley on what they are media-ted by their Lineage, then two questions arise,...WHY are they inquiring, and two, WHY are they not content with the admireable fellowship of so many Sakyamuni's, Tilopa's, Saraha's, Padmasambhava's, Quan Yin's and other enlightened people in their Lineage? WHY,...would one who is a member of such an "enlightened Lineage, which exists today, right now" spend so much time typing diatribe? Go figure! V

From a dualisic framework, yes, "every truth is a lie". All personal, relative, empirical truths are lies. An absolute truth is not a lie,...and would understand this if you were aware of a single absolute truth. Let's be honest,...you are verbalizing an ego fear, which arises from the belief that absolute truth will destroy ego, and thys must deny the existence of any absolute truth (even an absolute that there is no absolute truth). As I mentioned, an absolute truth is that There is no Present in Time,...prove it wrong. No, you do not want to prove, for one thing, your ego realizes it can't, and on the other hand, you're already convinced of your madness that no truth exists just because you haven't uncovered one. Now, if this was about spewing something from a book, or arguing a religious or empirical truth, I'd say you're post was worthy of the effort, albeit misinformation. Sort of like saying "I contend that we are both freethinkers. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." However, on a deeper level, where you currently do not wish to go, you're clinging to falsity for your identity. As Eckhart Tolle, "we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself" V

That is a most odd way of looking at things from a non-dualistic framework, although may make sense within a dualistic framework. Form and Emptiness, as is "form is empty, and empty is form", are indeed opposites of the same cyclical thing,...just as hope and fear are opposite, but interconnected,...thus, if one wished to dissolve all fear, all hope must simultaneously dissove with it. The Heart sutra is about how to recognize duality's reality for what it is,...emptiness is the unformed potential of form,...it's the cycle of form when not form. As I mentioned, instead of me posting a book length explaination of how duality works, I suggested the on-line book Secret of Light by Russell, which, although permeated with religio-sciential jargon, sums up the nature of duality quite accurately, and somewhat compatible with Buddhism (less the theism of course). V

Are you suggesting that in your Lineage the Four Noble Truths are not true? Or that there is no, "the True Bodhi Path" Buddha This dialogue is beginning to remind me of a Progessive attempting to converse with a Conservative. Why are you holding onto such Rigid fear and closed-mindedness? http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Society/Conservatives_Deconstruct.html Am I that much a threat to your lineage? One thing for sure, your Buddhism seems to from things other than Buddhism. For some brief examples: "the Tathagatas' words are true and correspond to reality. They are ultimate words, neither deceitful nor heterodox" Buddha "When you study the Path and see the truth, ignorance vanishes and light remains forever. " Buddha "When absolute truth is discovered, their level is like the level of Buddhas. That is called the Transference of Reaching all Places." Buddha "If truth was understood, ego would no longer be "needed" in the capacity it now enjoys." Sri Ram Kaa "Waves of conceptualization, all the mind's creation, dissolve; When you behold your mind's true nature." Tilopa "They should use the ear organ to cultivate, A perfect penetration surpassing all others, That is the way to the true mind." Buddha "Though there may be many lies, One truth will conquer all." Saraha "When mind never strays from indeterminate, non-conceptual truth; The unbroken samaya is a lamp lit in spiritual darkness." Tilopa "When the false ceases to be, that is known as truth" Shurangama sutra "The truth beyond mind cannot be grasped by any faculty of mind" Tilopa "If even one person among you finds the truth and returns to the source, then all the space in the ten directions is obliterated" Buddha. "But if they reject arising and ceasing and uphold the eternal truth, an enduring light will appear, and with that, the sense-organs, defiling objects, and consciousnesses will disappear." Shurangama sutra "The single mind of True Suchness is called the Ground of Immovability" Buddha "unite with enlightenment, so that true suchness, the wonderful enlightened bright nature, comes into being. Buddha "The precious, enlightened true mind is perfect in everyone." Buddha "Accordingly, extract one organ, free it from adhesion, and subdue it at its inner core. Once subdued, it will return to primal truth and radiate its innate brilliance.....True understanding does not follow from the sense-organs." Buddha "Upholding the truth is the best thing." Buddha

You really should relax Vajrahridaya,....if your attention is not on the Short Path, then it's on the Long Path. Here's a suggestion,....listen to the song on this HomePage, a thousand times. http://diamondbodyyoga.com/

Good for you,....I gnow that ego is empty of inherent existence also. However, where I wish to cooperate, you consistently strive to compete. I am happy for you, that there are plenty of Sakyamuni's, Tilopa's, Saraha's, Padmasambhava's, Quan Yin's and other enlightened people in your Lineage. If I knew such an admirable group, or even one of the above, I would not be dabbling on this forum, looking for ways to cooperate through language. V

No,...that wouldn't even make sense for fully ignorant person,...because if there actually were no Ultimate Truth, than the Ultimate Truth would be absolutely nothing, and thus an Ultimate Truth. However, as I already mentioned several absolute truths, such as 'There is no Present in Time',...or Buddha suggesting that the skandhas are a truth of duality (albeit a somewhat relative truth), I'll be kind, and pretend that neither you or Vajrahridaya could comprehend more than 1% of the thread due to pre-conditioning. Hence,...as the quote in question is, "Very, very few people are interested in Ultimate Truth,...most merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible"....my question, in regards to both responses, would be WHY are you at this forum at all? Thus, what I really should add to the oxymoron list would be: Twinner-Vajrahridaya Tao Bum members. V

Although oxymorons and selfishness are similiar in that they both have a disregard for the concern of others,...I'd say oxymorons are more hindering to awakening, because, whereas even a moron can see selfishness as selfishness, very few appear able to see an oxymoron for an oxymoron. V

I disagree that we are that far apart on these subjects. Nor am I attempting to push a monist viewpoint. Fortunately, I was emancipated from monism on June 21, 1999,...one of those days etched into memory by the sheer profoundness of it. Fundamentally I'm here for the vocabulary,...not only words that are used, but the experiences attempting to be shared through what is not said. Very, very few people are interested in Ultimate Truth,...most merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible. Sure, I'm interested in what is nirvana, buddhic consciousness, and what is all this talk about what's beyond the skandhas,...but uncovering absolute truths is my main inquiry,...perhaps since I was 8. Strangely, there is no vocabulary for discussing truth,...or for quickly recognizing what is not absolutely true. If your attachment to the Long Paths of Lineages is your focus, I by no means belittle that. As I said, I'm here for the vocabulary. V

So,...who's saying that attachment to anything is not a distraction? To say, for example, that a ripe banana is yellow to our perception because it absorbs almost all wavelengths except yellow, which the surface of its form reflects to our sensory apparatus, is an attachment to bananas? Is there a Sakyamuni, Tilopa, Saraha, Padmasambhava, Quan Yin, living today,...among the Lineages? If there is a Sakyamuni, Tilopa, Saraha, Padmasambhava, Quan Yin, living today, I'd bet they would not be among the Lineages,...the Lineages would be quite upset with their presence. V

1. Why does it matter? Do you think the first brush stroke of a painting would somehow disclose the essence of the painter? 3.No,...the confusion appears to be that you do not understand opposites. The sum of opposites is always zero,...just as all negatives added to all positives is 0. In the reality of duality, the inbalance of opposites is the condition for endless manifestation. What would occur if a see-saws lever was in balance,...motion would cease. All phenonena is in motion. Stop the motion, and all phenomena ends. 4 Yes, the idea or concept of the Unconditional is thought (ego), but that does not deny the reality of the Unconditional. Quantum cosmologists, Steven Hawking and Jim Hartle said that since time loses characteristics that separate it from space, the concept of a beginning in time becomes meaningless. That is to say, there was no Big Bang, no singularity, no creation, no Creator, no beginning nor end, because there is no time. Enlightened Bodhisattva's been saying that for a few thousand years through understanding the Unconditional. 6. Why are humans so arrogant to believe that the universe would not be without them. Were there humans before dinosaurs? Will there be an earth if Christian Fascists (Tea Party patriots) take over the planet and annilate everyone for Jesus. Is non-sentient consciousness depended on humanity. 7. Yes, Unborn Awareness can be observed, just not through the skandhas. The 6 senses can only observe motion,...so obviously, the observer of the Unborn Awareness, that is, awareness beyond belief, is not of the 6 senses. Nothing can be GNOWN through the skandhas,...but only KNOWN. Gnowledge does not arise from the brain,...only knowledge arises from the brain. And no,...time is not needed to recognize the Present,...although through time, the absence of the Present can be recognized. 8 First,...I'm not into beliefs. Beliefs deny, suppress, disconnect, and disempower. Through awakened consciousness, the dream of the skandhas is still there, just as the stars continue to be above us during the day,...awakened consciousness is like standing on the lever of a see-saw over the fulcrum, versus anywhere else on the lever. Those that can stand on the lever above the fulcrum 24/7 or called Buddha. 9 I view the Short Path from a different perspective,...somewhat like this: http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/23/5#section1 10. Undivided Light is not separate from appearances,...appearances are separated from Undivided Light, which precipitates their motion to unite with Undivided Light, although it NEVER can, because the unreal can never enter the real. Energy is simply the unbalanced, dissymphonic continuum of the desire to return to source, which it never really left. What occurs, conceptually speaking, when one crosses the threshold of the so-called speed of light? It's helpful for perspective,...because from Light's point of view (which travels no distance, in no time, and thus has no need for speed) we are relatively 186k mps slower than the Stillness of Undivided Light. In other words, everything in duality's reality is in the past. The perceived present, as in your looking at these words, is the past. No object can be seen in the Present, because no objects exist in the Present. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. V