Bubbles

edited to delete the post.

I beg to differ: There are two main traditions involved in the study of Yijing: -the yili tradition which concerns the 'meaning and pattern' (Yijing text). This one was the scholar approach. -the xiangshu tradition which concerns the 'image and number' (numerology, divination etc) This one was developed partly by illiterates who did not had full access to Yijing text. One can be Taoist within either one tradition or the other. Why not?

Yes, I have this also although in another translation. As you can see there is no mention of any directional attributes. The thing is ChiDragon's interpretation may be interesting but to me at best useless. 1.First because there is a strong tendency in Mainland China to posit that all the material and practices ancient Chinese have developed are linked to China geographical features and therefore usable ONLY in China and that they can't make sense outside China which is a gross lie. 2. Second because the meanings I was given and use I make of Xian Tian Bagua is not linked to directions. To remain courteous, I would say that introducing directions in Xian Tian seems irrelevant. But I am not Shao Yung himself so, I will just say it is my 0.000..02 cents.

OK.

Hi Josama, Perhaps you have already done it: go to Mr Dunn website My link and have a look at the descriptions given for each DVD. Some explanations are given about the qi circulation each part of the system triggers. Since I don't know KAP, I can't answer completely your question. Hope it helps a bit.

1.Most of people don't train with a sifu: they buy DVD and books. They don't know/like what the student/teacher relationship involves: trust, perseverance, and filial feeling. 2.We live in consumerism which is commonly confused with freedom to dabble into different things and make their own soup looking for the best higher teachings while they are still in kindergarten.

I have read that interpretation following the link you offered to another forum in an earlier post. Would you mind giving some text or book reference that reveals the historical or archaeological background of it? Said in another way: where did you found this interpretation? Thanks

I see what you mean. I wrote what came up in my mind and since 'yoga' can be understood as 'union', I thought that it could fit well to describe the christian mystic path : union with the Divine/Godhead. Does it make it more acceptable for you in this way?

Actually the meaning was 'operation', 'handling'.

edited: wrong manipulation

I had already this essay, thanks anyway.

Xian Tian arrangement denotes perfection because each trigram is balanced by its counterpart in the arrangement. In the Yijing, there is no mention of directional attributes of each trigram as far as Xian Tian arrangement is concerned. The circular diagram appears only during Sung dynasty, and nothing in the Yijing supports the idea that this circular diagram was known when the Shuo Gua was written. So what I am saying is that the directional attributes of the trigrams in the Xian Tian tu are probably a re-interpretation due to Shao Yung (Sung dynasty). It can make sense to find a East-West (Li-Kan) axis in the Xian Tian arrangement because it can depict the course of the sun beginning in East (Li) and finishing in West (Kan): it implies that the Xian Tian is a vertical diagram, with Earth (Kun) below and Heaven (above). As soon as you put cardinal directions in it, you see it in a horizontal manner and associate it with geocentric compass directions, which contradicts its meaning and purpose. Conversely, the Shuo Gua mentions explicitly directions for each trigram and that coincides with the Hou Tian arrangement. The directions are seen in the Luoshu and in all its applications. edited for spelling

Oh! it was a quotation. Great. If you put it in context you will see and hear that Osho's point is not to create antagonism between people (it should be contradictory with his teachings, right?) but to insist on the idea that belief prevents one to find Truth (to be Truth, I would say). If you trust Osho please read his teachings about the Western mystics. At the beginning of Come Follow To You, Vol 1 Reflections on Jesus of Nazareth Talks given from 21/10/75 am to 30/10/75 am English Discourse series he says this: "I WILL SPEAK ON CHRIST, but not on Christianity. Christianity has nothing to do with Christ. In fact, Christianity is anti-Christ -- just as Buddhism is antiBuddha and Jainism anti-Mahavir. Christ has something in him which cannot be organized: the very nature of it is rebellion and a rebel]ion cannot be organized. The moment you organize it, you kill it. Then the dead corpse remains. You can worship it, but you cannot be transformed by it. You can carry the load for centuries and centuries, but it will only burden you, it will not liberate you. That's why, from the beginning, let it be absolutely clear: I am all for Christ, but not even a small part of me is for Christianity. If you want Christ, you have to go beyond Christianity. If you cling too much to Christianity, you will not be able to understand Christ. Christ is beyond all churches. Christ is the very principle of religion" So the problem is not religion per se, it is the institution. The problem is not faith because real faith is love, the problem is belief. ( so says Osho in a discourse about your dear Tilopa) No one can make you believe something if you don't want to. This is your very responsibility. Don't turn anyone into your enemy. Your enemy is your tendancy to be credulous and find consolation in the fictions gurus, priests,money makers are offering to you. No one except you is responsible for your credulity. This is the very core of Buddha's message in the Kalama sutta, right? You may already know it, you can find some talks here My link

Ok, once again: 1.I am not Christian. 2.You are mixing up Christianity as an institution with Christian mystics, thinkers etc. I totally agree with you - no discussion debate on that-that the Christian institution has committed blood crimes, have enslaved women etc.... But by rejecting christianity as a whole you are unfair because if you look into Master Eckhart writings for eg (judged heretic by Christian institution) you would find yourself closer to the Buddha than you think. Basically what I am saying is that you don't need to denounce institution based religions and especially Christianity. Everyone here already knows that institutions are somewhat violent. You are not really helping the cause of free thinkers by acting like that. Commenting the kalama sutta in detail and telling us how it relates to your own life would be more helpful and inspiring than filling up your posts with quotations. Accumulate quotations, using intellectual short-cuts and peremptory sentences does not help anyone- including you in first place. ex: when you say "Anyone who gives you a belief system is your enemy". This is far from being a compassion stemmed sentence.And I am quite sure it hurts you to write things like that. Anyone who gives you a belief system is your not your enemy but someone who thinks it is good for him/her and that everyone could benefit from it. But if you read the Buddha you already know what He would do in such a situation: you are free to refuse any thing that is not desirable or false for you. But changing this poor person into an enemy is a sign that he/she is just threatening something in you that needs permanent reassurance. This way you are not so far from the fundamentalists Christians you denounce. I am not saying it to heat up again the discussion. I wish that you will find a peaceful way to embody your ideal of free thinking.I won't teach you that free thinking primary means free from passions and negativity otherwise where is freedom? edited for spelling as far as I could

Thanks for sharing, hagar. I had similar experience two times: - first while reading Jean Klein_ Who Am I?_ - second when I was quite involved in Buddhism, it was years later. One day I bowed before Amitābha's statue, and it suddenly fell upon me. Each time it lasted two or three days. There were only experiences..

Dear ChiDragon-Friend, Xian Tian Bagua and Hou Tian Bagua depict cosmological and energetic principles. I agree that most of the time, Xian Tian arrangement is shown with directions. Directional orientation of the trigrams in Xian Tian Bagua is a practice that traces back to Sung Dynasty but there is no basis for this practice in ancient commentary material. Shuo Gua gives directional attributes only to Hou Tian Bagua arrangement. I could go more in depth but someone made it far better than I could: Please read Steve Moore_ The trigrams of the Han -the inner structure of the I Ching_ The Aquarian press, 1989. Read particularly pp 88-119 My link Have a nice day!

Let's come back to common sense. I am no authority to choose what Daoists or Buddhists say about lust and love. To know it I have to read the texts. When someone says that Daoism doesn't find that lust is a problem, I read the text and I say "yes you are right" or "no this is not true". Without reading the book how can I know? I have not channeled Buddha nor Lie-tseu yet. When it comes to my personal life, I am the only one authority on the subject, for sure. edited for spelling

thelerner makes very good points. Your slandering of religions reveals that you live with the hatred of anything that disturbs your own core beliefs. And your posts show that your are ready to use the worst intellectual and oratory methods to find reassurance and try to convince (I would say manipulate) others or to find supporters. You are about to found the religion of the religion haters. Someone who has really found Truth and Inner Peace would not spend his time and energy slandering religions. He would post with some wisdom and compassion. Why not letting your avatar be an inspiration for you? Christianity as a religious institution has clearly committed crimes. Buddhism as an institution also. Any human institution is fallible. Even Krishnamurti makes no exception. But this is not enough to invalidate the whole corpus of texts nor their thinking content. Some level-headed investigation is needed. Because of my background and my job I have read and studied a lot of texts in literature, philosophy, theology and I am asked to study them carefully with objective methods and with a sense of impartiality. Hopefully you are not my student, you would be one of the worst ever.

Dwai and mat black have said it all. All the Daoist texts I have confirm that lust is an obstacle to cultivation. Even texts about sexual practices point the difference between sexual energy and lust. This is not nicely Buddhist only, it is nicely Daoist also.

Dear ChiDragon, FYI, the arrangement of trigrams you posted is Xian Tian Bagua (Pre Heaven)... so it is not oriented . It makes no sense. Orientation is found only in Hou Tian Bagua (After Heaven).

__/\__

So much prejudice, so little real and honest analysis leave me speechless.

I am not a christian zelot in anyway but please don't misquote as a mean to twist ideas and serve your purpose. I will only take the first two quotations as examples of what I am talking about but of course it can be done with every quotation in every post you make. 1st quotation : "A Husband should fulfill his obligation to his wife, and a wife should do the same for her husband. A wife does not have authority over her own body, but her husband does. In the same way, a husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but his wife does. Do not withhold yourselves from each other unless you agree to do so just for a set time, in order to devote yourselves to prayer. Then you should come together again so that Satan does not tempt you through your lack of self-control. But I say this as a concession, not as a command. I would like everyone to be unmarried, like I am. However, each person has a special gift from God, one this and another that." You can see that the context marriage and specifically the sexual relationships within it. And you can see the reciprocity between husband and wife. 2nd quotation: Advice about Head Coverings "Now I want you to realize that the Messiah is the head of every man, and man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of the Messiah. Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head dishonors his head, and every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, which is the same as having her head shaved. So if a woman does not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. If it is a disgrace for a woman to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her own head. A man should not cover his head, because he exists as God's image and glory. But the woman is man's glory. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; and man was not created for woman, but woman for man.This is why a woman should have authority over her own head: because of the angels. In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man of woman. For as woman came from man, so man comes through woman. But everything comes from God. Decide for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Nature itself teaches you neither that it is disgraceful for a man to have long hair nor that hair is a woman's glory, for hair is given as a substitute for coverings. But if anyone wants to argue about this, we do not have any custom like this, nor do any of God's churches." The context is "Advice about Head Coverings" not abortion or anything else. As you can see woman is man's glory in the very same way man is God's glory. The idea one gets is different from what you get by taken a sentence out of context. In another post here I have shown that Vmarco intellectual methods are very very far from being acceptable in terms of consistency and intellectual integrity. By reading digests, or any text superficially; by quoting without considering the context or taking only part of the sentences; you can virtually demonstrate anything you want using everything you want. I am not advocating submission of women ,nor blaming abortion. It is just that women deserve better defense than parroting and mixing up apple and oranges.