松永道

buddha had the life, women, money, everything so yes it was a sort of payment that he gave it all up. most of us on this board don't have half of what he had and we can't give even that up (or complain if we do).

 

Buddha absolutely had the life. But giving it up was no form of payment.

Buddha had everything, and though he had everything, he still didn't have what he sought. He knew everywhere enlightenment wasn't. And so he know where it was. Beyond things. He had the life and the life was empty. He traded hollow trash for the universe's greatest treasure. The act wasn't payment, it was waste disposal.

Payment is fine. But why lie about it? If my teacher needs money, that right there evokes my compassion. Even if they don't I want to pay them back. It's human nature to return a favor. These gifts are just a physical shell for the real sentiment. And I think it's beautiful. Because the truth is, you do pass such a spiritual threshold when you give from the heart. But this can't be requested from you. It has to come from you.

No one told the Buddha, "give up your wealth and I'll give you enlightenment." That's laughable.

 

There is LOT of information out there, and the first step would arguably be to collect and collate it. Basically, form a kind of research 'library'. This would of course have to include the work done by Chinese researchers and masters.

 

So, you would need a librarian, maybe several, and of course some capable translators. Establishing contact with some of the Chinese universities and research bodies would be important also.

 

Good idea. Wudangquan is starting a Dao library website if I'm not mistaken, perhaps that's a good start.

haha Mike, that was a bit harsh on procurator

 

anyway, i was actually going to answer the question but then i realised that he wanted to "assess" the teaching of my school. well i found that very disrespectful to Master Wang and Shen Laoshi, i couldn't believe there is someone in the world who is presumptuous enough to judge Master Wang Liping's teaching. if it was a question of genuine curiosity or if anyone wanted to compare and discuss their interpretations of the terms used in the classics, i am open to it. But i won't put forth materials from Master Wang and Shen Laoshi's teaching out in the public to be "judged". For discussion yeah, but not judegment. Anyway if anyone has read essays from my blog, one will realise that Shen Laoshi has been very generous in showing the world authentic experiences and phenomena associated with Ling Bao Bi Fa, I don't think you can find these materials anywhere else.

Please don't let one person's pollution from ruin it for the rest. Doing so would really give them too much credit. Anyway, there's much bigger things out there to overcome. A pebble on the tracks won't derail a train.

That said, there's been plenty of analysis, constructive comments, and added insights so far, I'd don't see why it should stop here. I have read you blog Ken and think it's great. Please keep up the good work and consider sharing more here.

Ladies and gentlemen of virtue, check your egos at the door, we have real work to do.

Hi Ken, i would love to learn so i ask for a clarification

 

第七法 调养真息 Tiaoyang Zhen Xi

 

is there a very specific phenomenon that happens to the body and to the breath at this stage and if so what is it?

 

Thank you.

I would also very much appreciate Ken's clarification. In the mean while, here is one line that describes Zhen Xi:

All I'll say is from my experience on the matter, this statement should be interpreted quite literally.

Dear SYD,

 

maybe you have seen this already but in case you haven't I find these commentaries quite useful

 

http://219.76.217.108/Books/Mast_Lui/Tao_Medit2.htm

 

Best

 

YM

Traditional characters! Arrrggh.

Very good link, thank you. Very good. And please any more comments or additions are more than welcome. My translation skills are basically the bare minimum, I just wanted to put my one partially developed skill to use helping in some way since the rest of my studies are still in incubation. Plus, it's good for studies!

6000 breathing cycles. Wow. Well there's certainly a reason I haven't graduated to the Ling Bao Bi Fa yet. Small goals. Man man lai.

---

Wudangspirit, thanks for the additional insights, I'd certainly like to hear any more you'd like to share. And in fair exchange, I'll add this quote to what you mentioned about the wuji stage.

Begin at the Celestial Root, located in the center of the forehead below the Hair's Well, called Ni Wan;

Use your eyes to look at the tip of your nose; Use the mind to visualize the nose looking down at the tip of the tongue; Visualize the tongue looking at the center of the Chest's Hall, called Chiang Kung, the Ordering Palace;

Chiang Kung then looks down at the lower center, Ming Men, located between the belly button and the kidneys (3.5" behind the belly button, in the peritoneal cavity); Lastly, Ming Men looks down at Tan Tien (3.5" below Ming Men), the core root and center of gravity; This central tree, from top to bottom, reaches out to the universe along four lines.

I'll continue adding to this when I can and would be very happy for others like YMWong and Wudangspirit to keep doing the same.

Do you know you are talking about something you don't know?

I never feel shame that I chagre money for my teaching, and I did mention this fact more than once.

I know your level exactly now, this is my last reply to you, now I know you are not the one i am waiting for.

 

Surely? So if I wanted to buy your course you'd turn me away?

Li Jiong, the problem is, your answers as to why you charge (and to many other things) have been completely inconsistent. First you said it was out of fairness to your students who have already paid. Then you said you needed money. Now you say money is the spiritual "open sesame". So what's the real reason?

And what's this "I know your level exactly now...now I know you are not the one i am waiting for"? I guess that's supposed to hurt my feelings but I rather wonder what took you so long, enlightened as you are? Funny thing, for as unenlightened as I am, I knew you weren't for me from your very first post here.

Nevertheless, even a pianzi deserves compassion. Honestly, good luck seeking the Da Dao.

Thanks Stigweard.

I guess the way I see it, we would first need a plan. Would a 10 year plan be too industrious? And then we'd need a place to develop the plan. My talents don't extend to web design but a simple website and forum would suffice I think.

And in the plan we'd have to discuss location, funding, etc, etc. If we can first make it clear how this can be accomplished then we can start enacting it. It may be impossible to get many older, more traditional masters to participate, but if even we can just get some sincere teachers like Lin Ai Wei, Santiago, Mjjbecker and others (already masters in their own right and expectedly more so in 10 years time), together in one place to document, share and compare their cultivation methods, the results could be remarkable.

More ideas to come...

Actually, even if one knows the senior cultivation method, it is still not easy to cultivate spiritual baby successfully. To help me break through the great pass, my teacher spent an anthropomorphous Heshouwu (Polygonum multiflorum). It is said only when a Heshouwu has lived for more than one thousand years, it will be anthropomorphous (the form like a human body). I don't know whether it is true or not, but I know anthropomorphous Heshouwu is very rare.

Now I understand why you need the money.. that He Shou Wu must have cost a fortune!

开玩笑阿！

I never knew He Shou Wu could grow that old. Great herb though, even the regular ones.

Please consider writing the article on Yang Shen, as you claim to have personal experience, the insight would be invaluable.

I think this 'dream' is a very nice one but one that can hardly materialize.

...

I think this depends on the fact that Daoism is very much a "personal" endevour, a solitary and personal path.

The pratictioner is very much concerned in walking up his path of development and sees 'external' knowledge as a disturbance - very much like a student of medicine would not want to loose time talking scholastic/learning issues with a student of engineering.

 

Historically speaking, in Daoism, the relationship is always very much a student/teacher and not a peer-peer one***. Cross pollination is fundamental to growth and this is very common in Daoism of course but that is done again by student/teacher relationship. A student of a certain line, going up his path, often seek assistance, guidance and new material from teachers of other lines - but always as a solitary and personal endevour.

 

Maybe this is something 'western Daoism' can do better than Chinese Daoism ?

 

YM

 

*** peer-peer relationship is common with Shamanism in China

I may still be very naive to the Dao in this regard, but I don't see external knowledge as a disturbance.

Admittedly, external knowledge isn't where the real wonder resides, mystery hides away from names and forms. Nonetheless, the internal and external spring from the same source. The Chinese saying is Tian Ren He Yi (天人合一), "Heaven and Man are One," in the west we said, "As Above, So Below."

Should a medical student take no interest in other subjects, I'd say they're too narrow minded. The Huangdi Nei Jing, Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic is the foundational text of classical Chinese medicine. However, the text itself reads more like a Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy. Movements and disharmonies in the heavens on earth and in man are all discussed for they. They share the same patterns, after all, they all stem from the same origin. And the real beauty is, every one of the ten thousand things expresses the same patterns uniquely. They're but different faces and facets of the same mystery. And therein a doctor can learn about engineering and just maybe gain new insight into medicine.

So as you say, cross pollination is fundamental to growth and I'll add, evolution.

When Daoism first started becoming organized in the Han Dynasty period all people were accepted for but an offering of five bushels of rice. The result was an intense cultivation and healing community and the beginning of Daoist cultivation science. I call it cultivation science because, in this setting, personal cultivation was communal, systematic, and reproducible. Essentially, it was one of the enlightenment periods of Daoist science. But as it ended, as all enlightenment periods do, the community atmosphere dispersed to little pockets here and there and under different cultural climates secrecy came to be prioritized over science. Nothing wrong with that, Yang sleeps underground through the winter to rise again and blossom another year. So I ask, is it summer yet? No maybe not, but is it spring?

My sister likes to say, "Sangha (community) is the Dharma of the West." And it seems a fitting complement. For China's collective nature, the practice of Dao must first be a study of individuality. But in the West, especially America, our Dharma, our challenge is community. Yang seeds flourish in the most Yin of soils.

Maybe 'western Daoism' can learn this lesson better.

Peace,

Xiao Song

I will do the other thread tonight, I promise. Just need to collect my sources and thoughts into a coherent whole. It is the summation of thoughts, ideas and experiences over quite a few years and remains ongoing. It will provide some interesting avenues of exploration for those inclined to do so.

 

Please take your time. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.

I appreciate the effort. Honestly, I think this community has the potential to really become something should more and more people start the taking time to crystallize their experiences into some well thought out essays. Sources? Fantastic. Just a little bit of scholarship goes a long way for underpinning and supporting personal experience and intuition. For the amount of time some of the members here have put into internal exploration they should be PhDs. And there's also no reason they can't produce scholarship on the same level. Not only are such essays valuable to others but they're also exceedingly beneficial to the writer's own education.

Cheers! I look forward to the final product.

...what do you actually do, cultivation-wise, and how exactly? -- or if you ever feel like asking me what I actually do, and how exactly?

I'm interested!

...You let yourself be distracted. Your attention flits between this and that. One another thread you comment that you feel some real benefits to your zhang zhuan practice, yet you talk about Spring Forest qigong and doing that. Why? Why? Why?

 

Instead of adding more to what you are already doing, you need to be doing more of what you are already doing. It is as easy, and as difficult as that.

 

An hour or two of zhang zhuan, an hour or two of drilling and repeating the basic movements, an hour or two form practice.

 

You already have the keys, you need to use them. Less internet, more training .

 

Fantastic advice and I aspire to do a better job myself with it. By the way MJJ, any opinion on training sequence? Zhan zhuang, drilling, then form work? Lately I've taken to zhan zhuang and form in the morning to open everything up, gong and muscle stuff in the afternoon before dinner, and maybe a bit more soft, small frame form work before meditation and bedtime. But I'm still working out the kinks. This summer I stayed up later for drilling at night, which was fun, but too cold now!

Still looking forward to your thread on gongfu when you get the time.

It seems you don't know what Yang Shen actually is.

 

...

 

I know Wudangquan might know that, you can ask him for the detail.

In our school, we call Yang Shen spiritual baby (Shen Ying), and above, there are Fa Ying and Dao Ying.

 

Seeing as Wudangquan has neither achieved the Yang Shen nor does he purport to be a lineage teacher, I think you're the one qualified to answer the question Li Jiong. Please, enlighten my ignorance.

I've found one of the many passages from the classics on Yang Shen (this one from 《钟吕传道集》) that seems to exacerbate my confusion, I think you could help clarify:

"内观以聚阳神，炼神以超内院，上涌以出天门，直超而入圣品。既出既入，而来往无差。或来或往，而远近不错。"

If you'd be kind enough, I'll let you translate it so I don't further confuse anyone with my misunderstanding.

It can be done! But it will take people who are there to mold the forum, cut out the arrogant participators, and go forward with the principles of Cultivation only. To sit down, and discuss the functions of the methods of each other's tradition, respect each other for their attainment of wisdom through their methods, and work together to expound those teachings.

 

A school perhaps, of a whole mix of cultivators, respecting each other, and teaching that as a foundation for cultivation. A place where the method is investigated, and then cultivated, and finally taught to eager students who are not chosen because of how much money they have, but because of their humility, honesty, and good roots. No favoritism what so ever.

 

...

 

Basically, It would be an awesome time to gather well cultivated ones in one room, discuss and record the whole entire explanations of their methods. What a grand thing.

 

Good attitude!

I've long held such a dream. Great schools like this have existed before but to my knowledge, never have many traditions gathered under one roof.

Imagine, the opportunity for masters to study each other's systems, discuss methods, and collaborate. I know many masters have the ability to simply watch a practice and immediately understand its purpose. Put these men and women together to study how their methods are alike and differ and I imagine you could develop a very refined system of cultivation.

You bring up a very good point that many different methods exist because many different minds exist. Certainly there is no one way best for everyone. This is where you could also introduce the traditional medical and psychological systems to help guide who should be practicing which methods when. Different bodies and minds have different needs, these differences too could be investigated and cataloged. I know Ayurvedic and TCM are both used to diagnose constitutional conditions and temporary disease patterns. Using these diagnostic techniques cultivation could be further tailored to suit each individual.

Use western material diagnostics to study the course of cultivation and within a generation we could have the start of a new tradition of human spiritual technology.

When would you like to start?

 

Its not about religion and who's best, its about cultivation.

 

 

Amen.

I swear, one could develop a conspiracy theory as to why different traditions bicker so much. Buddhists, Daoists, Hindus, Sufis, among any and all it's hard to find cultivators anywhere who don't believe every path but their own is mistaken.

So what's wrong with us? With some real respect, openness, and cooperation between traditions imagine the results, the research that could be accomplished?

"Laozi's a Bodhisattva." "No Laozi taught the Buddha." "Jesus didn't have a rainbow body." You know I respect the stories but they are beside the point. Historical or not, we don't know. So men of learning, don't let historical myths separate us from accomplishing something real, now. We don't need fantastic stories anyway, cultivation produces results. Right paths will produce right results in the body and mind. Does your path produce a clear mind and compassionate heart? Does your path improve and expand physical and mental health and abilities? The proof is in the practice.

I think one of the greatest achievements in the West is the scientific theory and academic community. Not everyone agrees but research is explained, refuted, and exchanged openly. Could such a community exist between cultivators too? Of different traditions and religions for the good of all humanity?

That's not rhetorical, I'm asking, do you think it could be done?

How is your diet?

I believe his next seminars were going to start incorporating Yin Xian Fa, but the public seminars previously did not yet have it incorporated.

 

Also, what are you basing the Yin Yang fusion information off of? The merging took place not with Wang Liping, but with another master of his, Jiang. I believe it was Lei Shan Dao Yin Yang Gong, and was seperate frm the path that Wang Lipings is teaching him. It could be incorrect assumption to compare them as the same thing.

 

Thanks,

- Rick F

The first step of Ren Xian Gong (Human Immortal Cultivation) in the Ling Bao Bi Fa is called Pipei Yin Yang. This literally translates to marrying or merging Yin and Yang. The way David (or was it his wife?) described it on their forum a while back, entering the list of immortals, etc, this seems to be where WLP's system of Ling Bao Bi Fa would place David.

I would suggest finding someone who has training firsthand in the Dragon Gate Sect. Translating this books are good for reading but you should have someone tell you what they actually mean. Someone who can give you what the correct training would be from square one.

 

I'll clarify, I'm not translating a training manual. I'm translating basic information on the training and levels. You won't find the specific instructions on training anywhere, Chinese or English. The reason is certain experiences must be discovered first through practice. To have a goal to experience a certain phenomenon before hand can compromise the ability to distinguish real from hallucinatory. These are not visualization practices. You train a method and achieve a result. Achieve the correct result and your teacher introduces the next method. Achieve other results and keep practicing or fix your deviation. You will not know the correct result until you achieve it.

This is very important. Not because it's a some big secret but rather it's for the student's own good.

Aside from that, there is cultivation theory from the Ling Bao Bi Fa and Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji, which I'll hopefully have the chance to translate more of as time goes on. Don't ever believe there's no value in reading the classics first hand. Sure a knowledgeable teacher is great, but they're no substitute for an inquisitive mind.

in my experience it is the extreme softness that creates the "hardness" not by training the hard. that said i have done plenty of very very hard training as well. but to me the ultimate way is to train in emptiness.

 

Adam

As far as application goes, I agree completely. Four ounces to push one thousand pounds. But as far as training methods are concerned, if one starts off with a weak body and only practices softness in the end they will have no ability.

Is Dr Yangs muscle Tendon change set the real deal?

 

ape

I don't agree with a lot of Yang's analysis. But I really respect is scholarship.

As far as his Muscle Tendon Changing Classic goes, I wouldn't know. After all you'd need to hire a little boy, little girl, woman, and man to massage and beat you every morning and evening for three years. Muscle-tendon changing isn't so mysterious though. And the Shaolin, Taiji, Bagua, etc iron bodies certainly aren't accomplished through massage, though hitting oneself (or hitting oneself against things) does seem to be common to all methods.

Out of curiousity, are there any meditations or qigong forms that are directly for emotions and thoughts that are to inevitably be transcended? by the way, I practice presence through out the day as written by Eckhart Tolle.

 

Every form will and every form won't from my experience. It really depends on your state of mind through practicing. Going for a walk and breathing, stretching and breathing, people watching and breathing, anything and breathing will clear emotions. Why? Emotional baggage is stagnant Qi. A repressed emotion or habitual emotion is a little pocket of Qi that doesn't flow properly. This is one of the few real root causes of disease. Breath moves the Qi. As the breath deepens, becomes smoother and more regular, so to does the Qi flow. Notice how your mental state affects your breath and how your breath affect your mental state.

意到气到血到

Qi follows awareness, blood follows Qi.

Higher quality breath means more Qi follows your awareness. When an emotion comes up be aware of it but don't feed it. In this case awareness means watching the mind not becoming it. IE, in meditation you remember you forgot to do your homework, so you start thinking about how to do it, how long it will take, etc. That's becoming the mind and feeding the anxiety that produced that thought. Awareness, means the thought comes up - forgot to do homework - you just let it mutter on like background noise. If you were paying close attention to the body and breath when this thought came up, you might have noticed a change. A feeling in the body, a stuffiness to the breath, just pay attention - where the awareness goes, Qi follows - just watching, just observing, nourishing Qi follows, you are healing. Try to do it and the Qi will get stuck where you're trying from. Be patient, just watch, and old emotions will open up and flow away.

If you really want a fast study in this attend a Vipassana retreat. No talking. No distractions. 10 hours a day of meditation. You'll learn volumes.

To me in order to retain youth, I think the goal would be flexibility and strength. Those are the things that will give you continued mobility. I totally agree..the best practice is the one that you enjoy enough to do. My goal isn't to be 16 again, it's to be the healthiest most vital person I can be now.

Yup, good goal. Martial arts are great for leg strength and flexibility. Internal martial arts will also cover the breathing, relaxing, and mental aspects of qigong. That's a great place to start. Then add body weight exercises, climbing trees, push-hands, and/or kettlebells (or sandbags if you can't get your hands on these) and you're pretty much set for a strong, healthy, energetic body. Add in sitting meditation and a proper diet and disease will never find you!

Plus it's all fun.