松永道

Good quality knowledge will always remain un-marketed.

And even if it is marketed, it will still remain hidden, mostly because the people interested in it are too few...

 

Song Yongdao, have you visited the Chinese side of TTB? You're one of the guys we would like to see dropping a line or two there...

Didn't know it existed until just now, I'll go check it out.

"In China's past, only on rare occasions could Daoism be considered the state religion."

Certifiably false. The later emperors, most of whom were Confucians or Neoconfucians, regularly denounced both Taoism and Buddhism as heretical teachings but allowed them to continue teaching since they supposedly promoted virtue. Among mystics and religious thinkers, Taoism was relatively more popular. Among the laity, Buddhism.

Meaning it wasn't a state religion. Was my wording confusing? For example, Buddhism was a state religion throughout much of the Tang dynasty (though there was a brief flirtation with state Daoism near the end). State religion means a religion sponsored by the state. In other words, though Daoism was certainly tolerated and a good many scholars where influenced by Daoism (not just in religious or mystical sense but also in matters of warfare, government and science), Daosim was by no means the state religion throughout the majority of Chinese history. However, as scholars, the vast majority would either be considered Daoist-influenced Confucians or, at least, Daoists raised with Confucian education.

Non-interference with human society may be important in Taoism, but the old Chinese imperial hierarchy is probably inspired by Taoism. The Temple of Heaven may be called an old Taoist temple. (traditional Chinese religion, actually, which was later absorbed into Taoist schools)

In what way can the old Chinese imperial hierarchy be considered Daoist? The imperial state pre-dates Daoism, at-least Daoism as a formal religion. It certainly predates Daoist temple culture, which was only adopted after China received Buddhist monastic influence. Like you say, traditional Chinese religion, if you can even call it that (with ancestor worship, the Jade emperor, etc), was later absorbed into Daoism as Daoism evolved as a religious establishment. And, along with them, Confucianism for that matter. Quanzhen and Zhengyi, both show obvious Confucian influences both in their mythology and their organizational hierarchy.

Besides, a lot of Lao Tzu's teachings are political. It's more appropriate to say that Taoists weren't enthusiastic about having a priest-king or a mystic-king.

For Laozi, I'd say he pretty obviously supported the idea of a "mystic-king" who kept the people simple and ruled by non-action.

As for later Daoists however, it would depend on the branch. Quanzhen, probably the school most influenced by Confucianism, was pretty keen to work with the government (and continues to do so). Hermits, however, would most likely side with Laozi and simply prefer to be left alone and removed from human affairs.

hollywood is good at well.. Ruining/exploiting history.

 

Im glad they dont know.. or if they do choose not to go in depth.. They'd demolish what I know as art.

In China's past, only on rare occasions could Daoism be considered the state religion. The reason? Daoists don't want the "limelight". Always the king-maker, never the king.

Personally, I'm glad Hollywood hasn't sunk its teeth into Daoism, and I'm perfectly happy to see the orientalist fantasy satisfied through pop-Buddhism and feel-good Yoga. No adherent to current fad will do any good to the name anyway - Taijiquan became a major fad in the Qing dynasty and as a consequence many systems are at best misunderstood and more often just empty (not just in the west, where you have more and more wushu college grads coming to teach their pretty dance moves, but this is in China).

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

I'm not the biggest Bible fan, and I even use to detest this quote. However, I understand it now. Fads and fame are fickle things - it's best to stand behind the king.

Be glad we don't have more limelight. That's the last thing real masters want.

I use to have 20/20 vision but uh.. That went down the drain pretty quickly.. same with periphiral vision (however you spell that). Any way my vision isen't even that bad although I dont feel like my I can actually focus what im looking at.. What I meant by not bad is I can read words from far but I guess my eyesight just isent very sensitive as it was.. Almost the same with my hearing sadly.

 

Anyway I was wondering what practices/food/herbs I might be able to consider..

This may or may not make sense depending on your level of experience.

But the vision problem you describe, in terms of qi-mechanism, is a narrowing of the vision field. Unlike farsightedness, which tends to be a deficient blood/Jing problem (and consequently really only happens in older people and those with weak heredity), nearsightedness is a problem of qi-stagnation.

Getting too focused on close up objects like books and computers for long periods of time are one of the causative factors. However, taking a step further into the abstract, nearsightedness has to do with the way you think. Fixating on problems, over thinking, qi accumulates on the center-line of the forehead. And this is important because it has everything to do with peripheral vision - it's a tunnel sightedness, in vision and mind.

There are herbs for the condition but I won't describe them as they are problematic when not combined properly - but any good herbalist should be able to help. Acupuncture can also help assuming the practitioner understands the qi-mechanism behind the problem.

As for a practice, here's technique: wipe the forehead from the center to the back of your neck and shoulders. Slow, fast, experiment with the rhythm - you'll find the right one and it won't always be the same. Use this to understand the mechanism, but you don't need to follow it rigidly. Stretching your arms out in front and moving them out to your peripheral vision is another technique. Understand the Qi and you can just do it with your mind when you notice nearsightedness/tunnel vision & excess thinking.

This will also help problems with the back of the head and neck ache (a non-intense but noticeable discomfort that is relieved by touch). The mechanism here is that qi is being diverted, starting in the heart region and flowing directly to the forehead (bypassing the occipital region and vertex). In good health it should flow up the back of the neck, across the top of the head, and down to the forehead.

Let me know if this helps.

SYD

This thread is hilarious. Great application of "screwbag" and "spoon".

The summit sounds like a bust though. What part of Beijing was it in? Where all the presenters foreigners?

As for cultivation only being gauged subjectively - that's BS. For instance, Chinese medicine is one practical application of understanding Dao. Plus, anyone who has done any serious cultivation can easily spot who has cultivated and who is just talking. If it could only be gauged subjectively, the only result from cultivating would be becoming, "holier than thou". What a waste of time. Cultivation has results in the material world, not just the spiritual world, because they're the same place.

Shen and Hun cultivation are readily apparent in the eyes and mind. Po and Jing cultivation are obviously observed on the body and health. The only thing I know to be exclusively subjective in gravity is a flight of imagination.

Hey guys.. Kali here. First thread. ohh yeaah. ;-)

Anyways, I was wondering if any of you Tao Bums here have learned to percieve energy and how you did it.

 

I mean, chi or prana or whatever you want to call it. The human bio energy field.

 

The thing is, sometimes I can feel and see other people's energies, but this is rare. But then again, I am relatively new to all of this energy cultivation business. I have been doing an indonesian form of cultivation called Tetada Kalimasada for a few months now, which is a form of tenaga dalam.

 

Sometimes I can see part of another person's aura but it seems not to be the full-fledged vision that other people have.. I don't see colors just a vague sort of whispy light. And most of what I see is the etheric double anyway. Sometimes I don't even see that. I used to be able to see this on a regular basis but lately it seems to have dwindled.

 

Has anyone developed this ability to a high degree? I can also feel my energy but only after a long session of cultivation.

 

Your thoughts please.

I started experiencing what sounds like the exact same phenomenon when I began practicing qigong. Can't say I've progressed much though - other than being able to turn it on or off. Still don't get much useful information anyway, certainly nothing I can use for reliable diagnostic purposes yet. But, I haven't been trying to develop it either.

In Daoist systems, lower dan tian is developed first. In part, it acts as an energetic anchor for higher sense development. A lot of people who go strait for the third-eye end up crazy or burned out.

Sounds like a cool martial art, are you leaning in the states?

 

1. Their physical body is not in shape. If they claim their fat is qi, watch out. They physical body must have the suppleness, strength and shape of someone who takes care of themselves. You can't neglect the shell as it is a mirror image of the spirit that resides within. Its like trying to run a concert level audio production with the wiring of a stereo bought from Walmart. It just doesn't work.

 

Heh, in China, if you're not fat people will be suspicious!

But really, modern body image is way messed up. In the past, having some plumpness was a sign of good health. Now we live in a world of cut bodies and skinny actors. Certainly obesity isn't healthy. But being all bones, muscles and angles isn't healthy either. Indeed, many accomplished martial artists end up getting plumper, after all, their doctrine is an economy of movement - more work with less energy. As the body gets more efficient, unless you decrease food intake, you'll put on fat. However, this fat is noticeably different from the Taiyang (big belly above the navel) or Taiyin (droopy belly below the navel) disharmony body types as it tends to be more evenly distributed throughout the body.

Still body type isn't a great deciding factor. Some people, in health, will be chubby. Others will be thinner. Look to the eyes and face. If the eyes glow and the face is colorful, then you have a healthy person. If the face is too red or too pale, ashen, bags under the eyes, etc this person isn't a role-model of good health.

I live in a completely polluted Chinese city.

Don't fear the smog. Yes it's bad, but a good Lung network will filter the pollution. Fear will weaken your defenses. Trust that healthy Lungs can clean themselves.

Proper breathing and posture will increase Qi, Blood and lymphatic circulation in the body. Internal massage is right. Shallow breathing, while it may seemingly reduce the amount of pollutants you breath in will also weaken circulation and therefore your bodies ability to process pollutants. Also, the nasal passage is a filter for pollutants, slow nasal breathing will give it more time to filter. In TCM deep breathing is also believed to strengthen Kidney function, another site of waste processing and removal. Also, Kidneys are viewed as the source of Defensive Qi, which is then dispersed throughout the body by the Lungs.

Proper diet (especially one devoid of white sugar and other excessive sweet foods like too much meats and dairy) will prevent mucus buildup. From a western view, excessive sweets can push certain gut flora into a state of overgrowth, forcing immune response to focus on their byproducts in the body, further compromising immune function and the body's ability to remove harmful factors.

If you're really concerned by visible pollution, you could consider getting a mask and treating it with some essential oils (but don't overdose). It can filter some of the heavier particles.

You're in the right habit. Don't worry, the human body is a badass.

Thanks for sating my curiosity.

Sounds like a type of Liver Yang Rising. I'm not familiar with lung capacity expansion practices other than good, old-fashioned hard exercise, so I can't comment on the technique. I know that Longmen neigong practices follow the rule "xi guo qi xia, hu bu chu xin (inhalation passes the navel, exhalation doesn't leave the heart)." Meaning the whole practice takes place in the abdomen, at no point does the chest or shoulders rise. This protects the heart and brain from accidental Yang Rising.

I agree.

Yeup, he also invented many other techniques that take a shorter time to gain insight.

Secret Mantra Vehicle is a different tenet system. Mantras are not made up by human minds.

 

Well... I'd go into some more, but I'm going to bed. I'll comment later.

 

I suppose you think Theravada are the only true teachings of the Buddha? Well... go ahead with it!

Wow, quick response. I just added an edit to my previous post.

I am not arguing Mantras aren't powerful. I'm asking what they have to do with enlightenment. And as such, what they have to do with Buddhism?

Daoism speaks of the great way and side-paths. And, just like later Buddhism, many Daoist practices don't really cultivate the great way. Looking at pretty much every religion in the world today one could make the same conclusion. Yes, the tradition is based in enlightenment, but over time it departs off into more and more side-paths.

I'm also not arguing Theravada is the Buddha's only real teachings (in fact, I'm not arguing at all), but I do appreciate that the system is matter of fact and doesn't include practices with the word "Secret" in the title, as it seems to rather contradict the Buddha's intentions.

Please, I'm open to your elaboration.

Please show me where he say's they are a dead end.

 

The sound dissolves into an awareness of pulsation and peace. They lead to stages of Jhana which helps with integrating vipassana on subtler levels of awareness. If he felt absorptions were dead ends, he wouldn't have taught samatha.

Samatha is a tool to calm the mind. It has nothing to do with realizing impermanence, suffering, or the non-self.

Admittedly you need concentration to practice insight, and as such samatha is a bridge to vipassana. But absorptions alone are a dead end. Buddha sought many meditation masters who practiced samatha and found none enlightened. That's why he invented vipassana.

Now my real question though is are all samatha equal? Is using the breath to calm the mind the same as mantra, counting, or countless other absorptions? Or is there a difference? Using the breath concentrates on a natural sensation. Using mantra concentrates on a construction of the human mind. Are these really the same foundation for vipassana?

Edit: I'm not a Buddhist scholar, but I'm interested. From my limited readings, I have yet to find a passage from the early tradition where Buddha endorses mantra meditation. Many passages mention using the breath. I am aware both Mahayana and Tibetan traditions use absorptions, especially mantra. But how am I to know that these aren't simply the additions of a growing religious establishment?

Mantra is a constant pulsation in the heart once it really incorporates into the mind stream into the sub and unconsious when they start to be illumined by the light of deepening awareness. It becomes light in dreams and repeats in layers at an uncanny speed and takes one places and brings great beings to you while you sleep. Yoga telepathy is not considered an advanced stage because it's still dualistic, there are deeper levels of reading. It can be utilized as a tool, where one can transfer energy and do mind pointing if you are a great Master and have students. My teacher gives transmission to a global audience and we get "it"... so this is a very high type of interconnectivity. I can't say exactly how he does it, probably with the help of lineage, but his intention during transmission is felt world wide.

 

I still find that what you are talking about I went through and I think it's a distraction from really going deeper.

I have my own Dzogchen practices, thank you though.

The Buddha clearly believed mantras and other absorptions are dead-ends concerning enlightenment. Many sages believed similarly. One Daoist said the Heart is the only organ that must be empty to be filled.

Mantras are certainly a fast track to quieting the mind, but is this silenced owed to burying the mind under mantra rather than letting the mind settle into stillness?

Not criticizing, just asking.

(looking over this thread, perhaps I should make this into a separate topic later)

oh and I haden't gone to much into detail but the wind sounded like a hurricane, or someone blowing into a mic.

My ears felt pretty weird after aswell. (Just some extra info)

Thanks for some more detail.

Just a couple more questions, any stiffness in your neck afterwards? Or perhaps an odd feeling in the lower back?

Well after triangle breath I did a lung capacity method where you hold the breath and expand breath capacity.. Thing is when I was doing it I started to hear something and thought a thunder storm might've been starting (even though I knew there wasen't one starting) and basically I realized I had gone to far at that point cause my vision was going blurry and I heard basically tons of wind.. Lol Ears rang a bit but I finished the method (bit sloppy but I still did) so as not to get hurt or anything..

 

Was it just a blood rush you think? If so.. It was the most intense one I've ever had lol, being that its not the stand up right when you wake up and fall back down. Bit different.

 

Anyway feedback is appreciated.

Sounds a lot like Liver Yang Rising (a TCM qi-pattern).

How did your head feel? Was it a high pitching ringing in the ears? How were you using your huiyin during the breathing method?

I only read the first couple posts by my suggestion is to bear through it.

My teacher says that pain is when you start developing gongfu.

Pain is Qi stagnation, a yang within yin phenomenon. You have to sit through it until stagnation transforms into fire, a completely yang within yang phenomenon. At that point the mind attached to pain phenomenon, the po, will begin dissolving, a yin withing yang phenomenon. And then you will enter genuine stillness, a yin within yin phenomenon.

Grin and bear it hagar!

Drugs are medicines, medicines are drugs.

Drugs have existed as long as dysfunction has existed. But some medicines treat symptoms, others cure the disease. In most cases, alcohol just treats the symptoms. Alcohol is a social stimulant among other things. In TCM it is seen as heating and invigorating blood and qi. Basically, it warms and relaxes the body/mind. Some people would do good to drink a bit to heat & loosen things up. Too bad most people don't study the experience, the way perceptive shifts and end up using alcohol as a gateway to this state rather than a key to open a new aspect of being. The key is unnecessary once the lock is opened.

The same can be said for other drugs. Open the door and keep going, no need to make a habit of the doorway.

And, of course, drugs aren't the only way to open doors of perception or treat disease. Just one way. And in my opinion, not even the best way. Why pay for the keys (with your health and cash) when you can learn to pick the locks (through cultivation)?

Drugs are medicines, medicines are drugs, a healthy person needs neither.

But, only a sad-sage would pursue health at the cost of really living!

Perhaps this comment is out of place, but..

Only a madman would set out to start a religion. The central figure in most of today's religions never wanted their philosophies to become a religion. Religions are political institutions - countries without boarders. And their objective is power, not enlightenment, salvation, etc. Worse than governments, they seek to control you on the mental level, filling the mind with dogma and fears. And the greatest shame is the root philosophies are all essentially good.

From a historical perspective, If you're a genuinely wise guy, looking to make the world a better place, a religion is the WORST thing that could happen to you.

Great topic.

I like to think about a similar scenario - though I scratch the pre-1850s nostalgia, even the Amish are going high-tech with wind and solar generators. Self-sufficiency and localized economy should be the goal and new, green technologies give us the chance to go local again.

On education, practical skills should be taught on a rotating schedule (medical school clinical rounds comes to mind). All students train with an accomplished farmer, weaver, mechanic, etc; then older students choose to specialize and apprentice in their favorite field. Basically, every adult in the community should be a part-time teacher. And this should be in addition to formal studies of the Great Books (great idea), history, math, music, science, exercise, etc.

Honestly, I think the hardest thing about putting together a community like this would be finding a good group of adults. A big group of motivated, intelligent, capable people who can work together is hard find. One rotten apple left to fester will ruin the whole bunch.

Yes, I understand what you are saying but still OBEs are a dead end. They lead to nowhere.

In Daoist culitvation, particularly the Lingbao Bifa and Taiyi Yinhua (Golden Flower), there are two type of out-of-body experience: Yin Shen and Yang Shen.

I wrote a topic on it a while ago.

Basically, a Yin Shen OBE occurs in deep relaxation/trance, when the body is relaxed or tired and the mind body connection is weakened. The mind just sort of pops out. Bruce even suggests attempting OBE after prolonged sleep deprivation and eye strain. Yang Shen OBE occurs in lotus-position (I'm not sure if half-lotus or other cross-legged positions can also achieve Yang Shen OBE), it is a long term cultivation that involves creating a type of energetic embryo. There is actual physical transformation involved. One of the more visible changes is a slight bump on the forehead (these bumps can be observed in many Taoist and Buddhist frescoes, though often accentuated to grotesque proportions).

I read the first edition of Astral Dynamics and definitely falls into the first category. Yin Shen cultivation is considered a dead-end in Taoism. In part, because Yin Shen OBE is hazy and dreamlike. Bruce himself admits that his OBEs are often quite influenced by imagination and hug the boarder between OBE and lucid dreaming. The Conversations of Zhong and Lu (Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji) comment, "Yin Shen cultivators mistakenly believe they are experiencing Dao, but this is laughable." One of the hurdles of Yang Shen cultivation is a stage of quieting the mind, sealing the senses, then separating reality from illusion. Yin Shen never separates reality from illusion.

That said, I thought his energy sensitivity exercises are good and I like his perspective in researching energy and consciousness. Though traditional schools claim he is researching a dead-end, I think what he produces can still be valuable.

松永道,

 

I completely agree with you with one slight difference. While it's annoying that the "Western" establishment likes to poo-poo traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), there may be a good side-effect of that attitude in the long run. In the long run we may end up with a fresh and independent look at the issues without carrying over the biases of TCM. This may broaden our understanding. This doesn't mean TCM is bad or ineffective at all. I believe there is a good chance that an independent perspective on mind-medicine will benefit TCM too.

 

I really like what you say about the paradigm shifts.

Traditional medicines definitely shouldn't get a free pass. Like you say, they all have their biases. But a comparative study and analysis of these systems save us from having to reinvent the wheel. Considering these systems represent thousands of years of accumulated study, we'd really be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

What a merger of traditional and modern medicine means to me is more than the synthesis of two systems. More like a man and woman coming together to have a child. One part mother, one part father, and one part something new.

But I wrestle with how the two can come together. The great strength of western medicine is objective measurement. Tools yield the same results no-matter the user (so hold our current paradigm anyway). And these tools then are the foundation of it's scientific community. The great strength of TCM turning yourself into a tool. Personal cultivation turns the practitioner into a living laboratory. But the system is necessarily subjective. Even if, theoretically, two doctors could cultivate the exact same level of ability, measure the same phenomenon, their unique human nature will always influence the interpretation of information. Of course, information in western medicine is biased by human interpretation too - but it's after the measurements - not during.

So, how to make a community around objective and subjective measurements? I read about a team of Japanese researchers who are making great strides in figuring out the visual cortex - to the point they may be able to record dreams. Wow! Here we have the beginnings of being able to watch someone else's subjective experience. Imagine this technology, taken further and applied to yogi's, qigong masters, psychics and other living laboratories. These men and women can, in essence, become the new tools of spiritual science. An objective study of subjective super-normal experience.

We'll see where things go.

SYD

The concept of movement in stillness and stillness in movement is much easier experienced than understood intellectually. It's an integral part of Taiji practice. It has to do with movement occurring in the waist and torso moreso than the extremities. It has to do with the body remaining relaxed and 'song' during movement. It has to do with the mind remaining quiet during movement. Movement in stillness includes the movement of the circulation of Qi awareness in the absence of any physical motion. It has to do with guiding the Qi with the intention. It has to do with cultivating sensitivity in pushing hands.

It's a really fascinating experience but doesn't mean much on paper, I don't think.

What are you waiting for? Find a Taiji program and jump in!

YOu'll love it!

Well said,

Meditation is the flip side: Movement in stillness. Keeping the body still, many internal sensations can be noticed and when noticed come alive. There is another quote in the Daodejing that reads something like, "watch the ten-thousand things rise, fall, and return to their origin."

Pretty much the whole Daodejing is a description of direct experience that exists before words and thoughts. An academic approach to passages therein will surely miss the point.

Thanks for the article,

I formally studied western medicine before switching focus to classical Chinese medicine. One of the major reasons was the placebo affect.

There was an interesting course back in college called, "The History and Philosophy of Scientific Revolution." One of the highlights for me was going into depth on the patterns of paradigm shift. Universally, one though paradigm would explain everything it could, save a few nagging questions - and those pesky little problems would be the rabbit hole into a new paradigm. 19th century physicists believed they would soon close the book on physics, work out every rule, they just had to figure out two little things: the motion of light and the mechanism of radiation. Of course, light problem blew the doors open into the new paradigm of Eistein's relativity. The radiation problem was the wormhole to quantum mechanics. Amazing.

I recognized the placebo effect is one of these problems in medicine. Scientists work away at the biochemical, material side of things - and I'm not saying it's time wasted - but the new paradigm resides in the immaterial.

Classical Chinese medicine, like many other tradition medical systems, never made much distinction between the material and immaterial body - it was just the body, whole. So it seemed like a good place to start. What a shame, much of the western medical establishment spends so much effort trying to discredit these systems instead of investing money wisely.. into researching these systems. Not just the herbs, acupuncture, or other techniques, but the systems of thought and observation that underpin traditional medicine.

The big thing in China now is "Zhong Xi Jiehe," basically TCM and Western Medicine merged. But to this point, the medicines are, at best, used side-by-side. I think a real merger will result in more than the sum of its parts. To truly realize the depth of tradition medical thought through modern technology and analysis - I believe it would be a landmark achievement for our species. A genuine spiritual science. And the ramifications would spread well beyond medical application.

It could be a very interesting time to be alive, assuming the human spirit doesn't get crushed by dollar signs.

SYD

Osteopaths, especially the European variety are all pretty involved with fascia and anatomical connections. Rolfers, too, from what I know, base their system on myofascial bands and how they influence posture.

There's an interesting book called "Anatomy Trains" that appears to go into quite a bit of depth on the issue.

I haven't devoted study to any of this yet, but it's on my long term agenda. If you end up doing some research on the subject, please don't hesitate to post any impressions.

That Guy will be cultivating someday, in one form or another. He wouldn't be here otherwise. The seed is already in the soil.

But skepticism is an important thing, not to be given up on. Belief is a quality, perhaps the only one, that should be utterly selfish. Believe in yourself. Not what you wish could be or what some group has agreed on. Every one of us is a scientist of our own life experience.

"The world is flat," said the most learned man of his day.

I wish THAT guy could have circumnavigated the globe. The way strong skepticism cedes to personal experience is beautiful.

I like people with different views.