松永道

Yes. The poster has experience with the effective use of TCM in treating a number of ailments (from musculoskeletal to common cold). It has its strengths and weaknesses, and in many cases works best with (gasp!) western medicine. For example, our school runs clinics with many of the hospitals here in Houston to treat cancer patients undergoing chemo. Western medicine is absolutely necessary for their cancer (yes, the hospitals have looked into Qigong therapy, but it hasn't caught on or proven itself yet), but Western meds fail in "treating" the effects of the chemo.

For the most part, I agree, Chinese medicine must work alongside western medicine.

However, I certainly wouldn't say western medicine is absolutely necessary for treating cancer. Chinese medicine can, has, and continues to bring cancer cases into remission and even completely cure. However, the doctors who have done this tend to be the Lao Zhongyi (the old doctors) and I haven't heard of a single one who has treated cancer without at least some use of herbs. Nevertheless, Western medicine is the Law in the US - work with it, or don't work. And certainly western medicine is better for certain, especially fast acting and dramatic, treatments.

It's funny, in America, most people think of acupuncture first when they think of CM. But in Chinese practice, herbs are used for the bulk of internal problems (though acupuncture may be used in concert for even better effect).

I had a sense that this was the case, which is part of why I'm visiting a few different places to see what comes up and go back to the one which seems most promising.

 

It is looking like 3 months initial look around, then 8-9 more months after that. If I am compelled to stay longer, I might look into either getting a scholarship and focusing on Chinese for a year, or else teaching English to support myself while continuing studying.

 

Really it depends on what arises. If by the end of the three months it seems obvious to come back to the States and to start a practice, then that is what I'll do. Same thing goes for spending years in China/Taiwan.

 

I speak enough Chinese to get around but not enough to learn much of anything at a high level.

 

Edit: Any suggestions for developing connections? I tend to see this as an outgrowth of awareness and intention, and some degree of humility. Perhaps there is some nuts and bolts stuff that it would be useful to know, though?

If you're smart and glowing the right people will know. The bigger problem is for you to out who's on the level. Being overly eager or overly skeptical could get you into trouble. Be yourself, your best one, and trust your instincts. Then what will be will be.

Studying Chinese isn't expensive. If you can afford it, I say if you find a city you like, give it a semester. In that time you can get a foothold in the language and get to know who's who in the city. The Chinese, almost as a rule, keep outsiders out and insiders close. Once you get into a social network, it's clear sailing. And as a westerner you'll be afforded leeway for inevitable faux pas.

As for connections, teachers of your TCM masters program would be a good place to start. I owe the bulk of my good fortune to my stateside Qigong master. Get an introduction from one of your teachers and you'll be on easy street.

If you don't have the connections going over, best put your faith in Yuanfen. If you have a good practice and a good heart, things will work out.

Good luck,

SYD

Three beautiful cities.

Honestly the type of doctor you're looking for could be found anywhere, though everywhere you go, they'll be hard to find. Speaking Chinese definitely helps. Having connections helps even more.

How much time are you willing to invest?

Thanks for posting this.

The collection grows..

I wonder what you have against the scientific method. To me it is merely the crystalization of the same logical reasoning processes I use on a daily basis. I've got a ton of respect for the scientific method. You may not, but I suspect you really just don't respect the stupid scientists. I wade through science, I don't just take it on face value. I like to look into the studies to see if they make sense to me. I like it. And I'm selfish like that.

Personally, I think scientific method is one of the great, defining philosophies of the modern age. But, it also has it's limitations. More particularly, we have our limitations in how we can apply it.

You say, "Feeling qi doesn't mean that every aspect of Chinese Medicine is accurate!"

I agree.

And the same can be applied to the relationship between scientific method and western medicine. Feeling Qi is actually the greatest foundation one can have going into the study of Chinese medicine. Personal cultivation, transforming your own body into an instrument and laboratory is the essence of Chinese medicine. This, combined with clinical empirical evidence, is how Chinese medicine developed over the past 5,000 years. In actuality, they have used and continue to use the scientific method. Starting with theory, a hypothesis, Doctors conducted experiments (clinical trials), analyzed the results, and modified theories. The main difference is just how experiments were conducted. In the case of Chinese medicine, they treat individual people, not diseases. It can also be prohibitively slow. And finally, the medicine places a huge emphasis on prevention, potentially decades before a disease significantly manifests - which owing to the aforementioned individuality of the patient, is nearly impossible to test.

Do I think every aspect of Chinese medicine is accurate? Of course not. But it can provide a terrific foundation and vocabulary for the Qi experience (indeed, TCM theory is the foundation of higher neigong theories). It is a tool that can structure and communicate your experience and be used to help others in the process. It also opens the doors to a 5,000 year old learning community (especially if you learn to read the classics in Chinese) for further contemplation and personal improvement.

Keep you skepticism. Seriously. Blind faith is dangerous zealotry no matter the philosophy. Just trust personal experience - it is your first and only laboratory. And any philosophy is empty without it.

SYD

Well for me, the thing is, I don't want to commit to a long training if it doesn't work, lol.

Chinese Buddhism has a pair of terms, Shi Yan and Shi Ren. Shi Ren literally means loose the person. Shi Yan means loose the words. To "loose the person" means miss an opportunity to share helpful words. To "loose the words" means to speak upon unwilling, unable or otherwise closed ears.

...

If you're genuinely interested, go prove it for yourself. Otherwise don't bother. The medical path, traditional and modern both, requires a great deal of commitment. And they share another commonality - occasionally, they just don't work.

Hey so I thought since we have such a nice thread going about qigong and science it would be nice to start a similar thread about Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture.

 

See, I have wanted to possibly go to school to become a Chinese Doctor, but I'm not even sure it works! Do any of you have experience treating any diseases with Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture? And, more importantly, do any of you have information about research in the Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture field(s)?

TCM doesn't fit well into the western model of laboratory testing, nor the western medical business model for that matter (you can't patent plants or techniques).

That said there are quite a few interesting studies out there. Look for some of the ones on animal testing. Regardless the ethical issues, acupuncture success with rats, etc certainly rules out the placebo effect (though the placebo is anything to be scoffed at either).

Most of the best journals are Chinese or Japanese, though some of the articles get translated over.

As for what I've seen, in my teacher's clinic over here, he's helped patients cure diabetes, high-blood pressure, high cholesterol, cancer, and infertility to name a few. I had another professor back in the states who became a CM doctor because of his experience curing testicular cancer through herbs, acupuncture, and qigong.

Another problem introducing TCM to America is people (edit: ie patients) lack the attention span, commitment, and ability to endure hardship for healing (ie pain from needles, bitter medicines, boiling medicines, etc). Real cure requires real commitment. The gongfu mantra applies equally to medicine, "xian ku, hou tian" - first bitter, then sweet.

SYD

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao...

Read on..

无名天地之始，有名万物之母

wu ming tian di zhi shi, you ming wan wu zhi mu

nameless, the genesis of heaven and earth; named, the mother of ten thousand things

此两者，同出而异名，同为之玄

ci liang zhe, tong chu er yi ming, tong wei zhi xuan

The two [named and unnamed], concurrently arise but have differed names, both are called profound

It is ironic and it isn't. Paradox is at the heart of Dao.

To talk or not talk. To be confused or to understand. These are both Dao. There is nothing un-Dao about Taobums, nor is there anything Dao about it. Buddhists often deride Daoists for their binary philosophy of Yin and Yang, though originally, they share the same foundation.

You are correct, the Dao that can be described isn't the eternal Dao.. BUT the Dao that can be described is ALSO the eternal Dao.

A twitter friend pointed me to this forum, although I've stumbled upon it before doing research. I'm not much for intros, but would like to say I'm glad to be here. I am heading to Wudangshan for the Fifth Int'l Conference on Daoism, June 18, commissioned to write two short articles for the Beijing Review on related topics. I will need some help. These are big topics to cover in a small space. I like to reach broad and deep for information and understanding -- perhaps there are some here who can help me avoid pitfalls -- overgeneralization, western bias, ignorance.

I've been studying Tao for over 14 years, with various teachers from different paths. Some serious some not so serious, you all know who they are. For the last three years have seriously been practicing tai chi chuan and learning neigong and healing arts. I am searching for authentic women's internal arts practices; hoping to get some training at Kundao if they will have me.

I am also going to Rome in August to study some foundational practices with a disciple of Master Wang Liping. Additionally, have been invited to attend another Dao conference in Beijing in November.

I am grateful to be able to write and try to live these practices as best I can. I hope to be a contributing member to the group some day as well.

Sincerely,

JessinChina

I hear Hangzhou is beautiful, still haven't made my way down.

I study Chinese medicine, Taijiquan, neigong etc in Xi'an. If you're studying Longmenpai cultivation, then we are using the same vocabulary - though I've studied significantly less than 14 years! Anyhow, if you need another set of eyes to offer comments on your articles, PM me.

Good luck,

SYD

I've met a few British priests who have trained in China (can't recall their names sorry), but it's a small island right? Small in terms of Dao anyway. Maybe you should try to contact them.

Or maybe, if you're feeling adventurous, you should come to China and learn to become a priest yourself.

Also, your Master seems to be developing a nice relationship with the Spanish community, why draw him away to England? There are plenty of masters in China who would probably jump at the opportunity. Why not bring more priests to Europe?

So it's kind of like saying, I'll teach you how to stop prostituting yourself if you fuck me first. Obviously it's not a sincere offer of help.

Ultimately I agree with Gold.. well aside from his self-appointment as the wisest guy here...

But the distinction between teaching skills verses wisdom is a good one. Obviously wisdom can't be taught, it's esoteric. And were it even possible to capture true wisdom in a doctrine, it would be like hanging a picture of your bedroom window over the window itself. There's no life in the picture, no light, no change.

And so follows the Daoist saying - Laozi was the wisest man because his teacher never taught him anything.

Now, on Wang Liping, it should be obvious that he's teaching skills at these seminars. But does that disqualify him from being a "wisdom master"? The two are no more mutually exclusive than wisdom and any other profession. There are wise businessmen, bartenders, farmers and house-painters. And any interaction, especially with genuinely wise people, can incite your own wisdom.

SYD

Lin Ai Wei 12

Taomeow 11

Trunk 8

Yoda 8

Mal 7

sean 7

Cat 6

Dao Zhen 6

Karen 6

rain 6

Smile 6

Stigweard 6

drew hempel 5

Father Paul 5

Mat Black 5

Ron Jeremy 5

Scotty 5

SYD 5

Ya Mu 5

Vajrasattva 5

I'm simultaneously heartened and ashamed to be included here. Especially among folks like Santiago, Dao Zhen, and Lin Ai Wei who are such amazing contributors with evident knowledge and experience in their words. And a dude like drew hempel, mad-scientist of inner alchemy.

For me, I've only entered the door, and have so little to give that my name here can only be a testament to hours spent evading practice.

My heart goes out to this community. I really think it's a good thing. So many people come here looking. And some find just a little bit, enough to click and get started. I guess people like these are my favorite Taobums. People like Pranaman who came here searching and found confidence in a practice. And people like Mewtwo who came and are still looking..

There's a notion that students deserve their teachers (or lack thereof). And that somehow their Karma, De, virtue, whatever you might call it, is unfit or unable to distinguish oblique from upright. I had a lot of trouble coming to terms with this idea. But now I can see, the search is where cultivation begins. And over a long and genuine search all lesser motivations fall away. Only the upright last.

Then it's just practice. Making the upright into reality.

Best of luck everyone, especially the searching,

SYD

The internet? Books? Who cares. The guy is a complete con-man. Don't waste a second thought wondering about him.

Oh, I almost forgot,

The reason ancient Daoists chose to go through "Bigu" was to defeat the three Chong. Chong means worm or parasite. The Chinese simplified character is 虫, the traditional variant is three of the simplified put together 蟲.

Why three?

Because there are three Chong in the body which basically correspond to the three Dan Tian. The upper Chong feeds on excessive thinking. The lower Chong feeds on excessive sex. The middle Chong feeds on excessive eating.

Bigu is an effort to kill these Chong.

We have pretty little information on ancient diet. "Bigu" literally translated as not eating grain generally meant a practice not a diet. If you ask a modern Daoist about Bigu they view it as a type of fasting where, for a period of time, you eat almost nothing, do specific practices, etc. Not just not eating grains.

Another side meaning of Bigu had to do with removing oneself from society. Grain, especially polished white rice, was the food of ancient Chinese society. It was processed, stored, and otherwise a symbol of man's way as opposed to the way of nature. In this sense, Bigu was a way of cutting your community ties.

Now personally, I find the modern "no carb" diet a compelling revival of the Bigu concept. I personally tried it for two months, eating plenty of complex carbs in form of vegetables and beans and also plenty of meat. After a rough first two weeks, my body adjusted to the slow burn and I felt lighter, stronger, and more energetic than ever. It's also effective for estranging you from society! So many social interactions revolve around eating. At the time I wasn't ready to cook every meal alone, too young, too soon.

Following said diet heavily combats a disease pattern Chinese medicine calls dampness. Dampness, interpreted through a western lens often means a bacterial or fungal overgrowth in the digestive track - the most famous is candida. "Sweet flavor enters the Spleen Network" The Spleen network covers many digestive functions, most notably pancreatic function. Too much sweet flavor harms the Spleen network. Diabetes is one pathological development of too much sweet flavor, another is Candida. In the case of Candida and other dampness related problems, too much sweet flavor harms the Spleen, the Spleen looses it's ability to properly transform incoming food into Blood and Qi. The untransformed food accumulates in the Intestines and transforms into Dampness. Accumulating Dampness further hinders proper transformation of food into Blood and Qi and so further Dampness accumulates...

Now in terms of western medicine, Candida thrives on the anaerobic metabolism of sugar. It even releases a signal molecules into our bodies that make us crave sugar. TCM recognizes that people with compromised Spleen function crave Sweet flavors. We keep eating sweets, Candida thrives, and the process continues. Candida hacks into our cravings to continue its proliferation!

Dampness, is associated with grogginess, heaviness, and otherwise unclear feelings. It can accumulate in the lungs and sinuses causing asthma, coughing and/or sinus pressure. Over time it can get cooked into phlegm and further compromise the mind and sensory orifices.

Indeed, Dampness can been seen as a direct competitor against enlightenment. It makes you heavy, not light; dull and dirty, not clear and clean. Following a diet that eliminates Dampness, like not eating simple carbs and starches, may be one of the best things we can do to complement a serious spiritual practice.

Good!

Trade your screen for the trees. Trade these words for whistling birds. Wash your eyes with green hills and blue skies. Oh Portland summer.. please say hello for me.

But as a minister-in-training, I have to say that it's what's wrong with the way Christianity is taught by the majority...not what I consider true Christian teachings.

 

I'm working on my "pre-ordination" paperwork right now...the full ordination process takes 3 years in my church...and I'm already talking about analyzing decision making...understanding why we make mistakes versus getting hung up on them...sort of what Sifu taught my friend, who passed it on to me..."don't worry, just meditate." laugh.gif

Awesome. The world needs more ministers practicing qigong and meditation. Would clear up a whole lot of cross-cultural misunderstandings.

I wouldn't know... But it sounds like a neglection of the physical body while at the same time you don't neglect qigong and/or neigong... Supposedly if you do this right over time your supposed get less bad side effects I.E. no more purple legs...

I guess I don't see it as a bad side effect or neglect of the physical body. The same man needed an operation (I don't know for what) and apparently the doctors remarked about the amazing shape his internal organs were in. An 80 year old with the guts of a 30 year old liver.

In any case, he practiced his Taiji every day and never suffered any leg problems.

Little1,

Good work on sitting in full lotus for an hour and a half. Two hours (one traditional Chinese hour) is considered a complete cycle of yin and yang - you're almost there.

1. I think you should be able to do it with either leg, but I don't know the energetic differences associated with one leg on top or the other.

2. If you have a full body Qigong practice, legs shouldn't be a problem. It's definitely good to cross-train waigong and neigong, they support each other in more ways than one.

3. There are thousands of mudras. Hand positions differ according to what you want to accomplish. Generally, hands palm down on each knee is the foundation posture.

4. Reducing blood supply to the legs via lotus position and to the head via proper neck posture, causes more blood to flow in the organs. That's more flow to flush waste out, more flow to deliver oxygen. Overall it greatly tonifies organ Qi.

Fantastic information, friend. Just to gain a degree of clarity on this subject -- is it OK to suffer through to the point where ones legs are completely dead after coming out of lotus? That is... not feeling anything in the legs and not being able to move them? Is this desirable? Functionality and feeling return after a few minutes of course.

It's ok. My teacher's master in his 80s sat at least 4 hours in lotus every day. His legs were purple by the end. However, he could also jump, literally, out of the position. Who needs feeling if you have Qi?

If you practice a moving qigong, taiji or the like, you may even find you can walk while your legs are still 'dead'. I won't give away the experience, but it gave me a new understanding of mind moving the Qi.

To wake your legs up quickly, run your hands down the Yang meridians on the outside of the leg while breathing out, and up the Yin meridians on the inside of the leg breathing in. With practice, it will only require a few cycles of the breath.

Great advice! While Full lotus is beneficial, it is certainly not irreplaceable. A cross-legged form named Yonyasana or ardha yonyasana, is more comfortable and can give one the benefits of Full Lotus if the duration of sitting is doubled. A yogic text states, for example, 10 minutes of full lotus would be equivalent to 20 minutes of yonyasana. For women, many yogic traditions don't prescribe full lotus at all but only yonyasana.

Interesting about contraindicating full lotus for women. Do you know any reasons why they advise women don't full lotus?

nomad, can you describe the pain more clearly? Is it persistent pain for hours or days after wards? Or is it an initial soreness or numbness that fades after you get up and get mobile?

One of the reasons for sitting in full lotus is to impair circulation to the legs. Pinching the femoral arteries causes more blood to circulate in the trunk and also forces smaller arteries in the leg to develop. Consequently, numbness is a common sign and some masters say you don't even begin developing full-lotus gongfu until the legs are numb and in pain. The ability to sit longer periods without numbness and pain is a sign of development, but also a sign to push your practice further. My teacher suggests sitting for an hour after the numbness kicks in.

On proper position, the ankles shouldn't be bent (a little is ok at the start), and the ankle should be up on top of the femoral artery. If you can't accomplish this with at least the bottom leg, you should spend more time in half lotus getting there. If your ankle is wrenched into a weird position that can damage the tendons and ligaments. Same goes for the knees. However, knee pain is common in the beginning stages of full lotus and should suffered through until it dissolves. Knee pain is generally due to tight hips, suffering through it allows the pain/heat to open up the hips - don't bail out early. Always quitting when the pain gets to a certain area will damage that area. Be brave, be equanimous, suffer through.

It's strange that the ankle pain doesn't kick in during full-lotus though. How long do you sit?

Yes, I see. He also says that people aren't "listening" to what ayurvedic/Chinese dietetics are "actually" saying, which for him is that the thermal properties of food can be balanced by spices/herbs/preparation/combining so it is possible to have raw or primarily raw foods for constitutional types that seem to 'need' meat/animal food and so you don't destroy the digestive fire. Ironically, Cousens advocates the Weston A. Price peoples' metabolic type diet research which everyone keeps quoting everywhere these days in order to eat whatever they want/have been eating (resistance to 'health' food ideas currently in everyones face I imagine, guilt?). . Remember 'raw' means food that

hasn't been cooked to the level where the heat destroys the enzymes so it can include warm foods, dehydrated foods... I'm not raw myself so this isn't my spiel. Like you I am very attracted to the idea so have done a fair bit of looking into it. I have been vegan for 19 years even though my 'type' says I should be medium to high animal protein...? I think all food habits have to do with your relation to the spirit of the life you cultivate which involves the cause/effect relations of everything to do with how the food came to be put in your mouth by your hands (and of course good digestion/assimilation/non heavily-processed food etc). Tried to open up the subject of food consciousness on a Daoismworld (reminds me a lot of Disneyworld for some reason) thread where Mak Tin Si posted how cruel fishing was, then proceeded to go through the minutiae of how and why you can still eat fish but not catch it while elucidating all the karmic in's and out's. It was very amusing to me personally, reminded me of Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica).

 

I believe the body can adjust and even change metabolism according to mind set/deep conviction/practices, though don't know how much is possible for us average people. It is common scientific knowledge about the positive effects of the relaxed life/meditation on metabolism/food assimilation. It seems to be a verboten area in 'spiritual' practice on the forums to discuss the possibility of bigu/vegan even vegetarian eating/non-eating as a 'virtue' worth cultivating, at least in the 'west'. Think I have pretty good understanding as to why based on considerable experience, so will not stir the pot any further....

Haha, I heard the same from Tibetan Monks. Tibetan Monks are allowed to eat meat, however, they still aren't allowed to kill it. That karmic debt falls on the poor butcher - bound to be a reincarnated as a worm for eons no doubt!

Personally, I've never taken any doctrine as law without testing it myself, especially the association between vegetarianism, good karma, and spiritual elevation. Why is it OK to kill plants, but not OK to kill animals? What about insects?

Karma aside though, I have noticed a tangible impact of veganism on my meditation and Taiji. From my experience, one of the greatest spiritual stimulants is a clean digestive tract - a feat much easier to accomplish without simple carbohydrates, meat, or both. But there have been times when I've been run down, and bowl of spiced lamb soup or a plate of raw beef tartar delivered better than any wonder drug.

Also, there has research that claims the live enzymes of raw plants aren't even accessible through digestion.

So.. who knows? So many of life's good things are good to a point, and past that point, just make things worse. Having the will to stick to a diet or practice while it's good, Yang; but holding on to the flexibility and insight to change if it goes wrong, Yin - here are two other virtues worth cultivating.

Strange how no-one has mentioned the work of Dr. Gabriel Cousens. He advocates a raw vegan diet (includes bee pollen for B12) based on Ayurvedic/Chinese principles and stringent research and application of modern western science. He says 99% of the world's people could live well according to their bodies' nutritional requirements on the raw food vegan diet he advocates! His main thrust is that such a diet supports the best outcome for spiritual and health development in a human when done properly. He's written some pretty impressive books of which you should probably familiarise yourself with 'Conscious Eating' and 'Spiritual Nutrition and the Rainbow Diet' (which deals in depth with the cultivation of Kundalini/Chakra energetics re nutrition/state of mind etc.). He's got a swag of credentials in all sorts of areas that he integrates for optimal effect in his work. I personally find his work to be staggeringly wholistic and difficult to follow to the letter, though it's 'proof' is pretty compelling. He's also co-written a book with David Wagner on Tachyon energy that you may want to look at. There seem to be some strangely myopic views from people who desire quick fix energy cultivation techniques- hope you're not one of them. I understand you feel better eating meat. Paul

I like the idea of raw food vegan diets, but I would certainly hesitate to say they would suit anywhere close to 99% of the world population. For one, raw food diets are better suited for warm climates. By both TCM and Ayurvedic logic, raw diets are cooling and not suited for people with already compromised digestion (internal cold).

Moreover, raw food is available locally in warm climates. It's ridiculous to ship Durian half way around the world, or even avocados half way across the continent just to get your fatty fruits. Talk about a hefty carbon footprint.

Most of all, I think it's ridiculous to claim one type of diet suits everyone, day in and day out. Raw foods are great for hot summers, but terrible for cold winters. Meat is good for some and bad for others. Body type, location, and season should be our greatest teachers in deciding what to eat. What's best for our health can also be best for the environment.

I'm glad my doctors felt stupid enough, long enough to learn from their teachers.

I'm glad our physicists have stenched of enough false humility to use Newton and Einstein as tools.

Drop the solipsism. The Dao is inside you and it's everywhere else too. The hidden meaning of relationships is finding the Dao in every single one of them.

My only question is why was San Xian Gong even listed in the first place? The Yin Xian Fa are more than enough for all three days.

The reality is that the terms neigong, qigong, etc have become associated, rightly or wrongly, with more than one practice or method. Call it what you will. The practice is always more important than the name hanging off it anyway.

Absolutely.

Chinese language and culture don't lend well to exact definitions. Often the meaning is determined heavily based on context. In the case of your example, it seems neigong refers to the inner-circle of students as opposed to waigong which would be taught externally/publicly. Whereas they would certainly be described as hard and soft waigong according to my prior definition. The terms are rather more fluid in Chinese.

It all comes down to clearly defining one's terms. In any decent college essay, this is the first and foremost priority. The following discussion hinges on a clear definition of the subject and terms. The terms are only useful in so much as they allow us to discuss the same thing.

What gets me is when teachers market their teachings as neigong, as in better than qigong, more deep, internal, profound or whatever, in order to sell to more students.. but that's another discussion.