松永道

I've never heard of hard neigong. Nor have I heard of soft neigong. I'm not sure what it would mean exactly. Neigong, in the daoist sense anyway, almost always refers to neidan and the alchemical process. It can be no more hard or soft than enlightenment or immortality.

Waigong can be divided into hard or soft. A neigong practice can support a waigong practice (and vice versa). By hard neigong, I assume the meaning would be a sitting neigong practice complemented with a moving hard waigong practice. Either that, or he's using the term neigong interchangeably with qigong.

In either case he should get his terms strait.

Thanks Yoda.

Anyone here who practices a neijiaquan knows it's about learning to move and act while using as little energy and effort as possible. Anyone who has applied this to life in general is worth studying.

Excellent advice.

How do you think Shan Yao fits into that context? It's not overly strong, yet it does nourish yin and yang to a lesser degree. It also seems to assist with the spleen & digestion. From my experience, it seems to be the safest 'tonic'.

I'd like to hear what you think .

Thanks.

Shan Yao is officially classified as a Qi tonic but it also supplements moisture and Yin. As such if you have a Dampness condition it's not advisable to have too much (candida and other fungal/bacterial overgrowths in the digestive track are among the western disease conditions that fall into the category of Dampness).

There is no one safest tonic for all people, it depends on their condition. But, if someone is going to experiment (what cultivator doesn't have a touch of mad scientist?), tonics are the safest place to start. Generally, side effects from taking the wrong tonic are mild and you would need to take the wrong herb for quite a long time or in a ridiculously large dose to do any real damage.

Viewed from this perspective, most of the health problems in the west stem from inappropriate and/or over consumption of tonic foods.

Deepbluesea,

Great plan, though I'd go easy on the tuna. Even the best tuna has pretty high levels of mercury and other heavy metals. Save tuna for sushi. Eating out of the can.. go for kippers and sardines!

Good question. An important question actually, to keep in mind over the long term.

 

As far as diet, look here. As far as herbs, go to whichever herb-store site and read up on yin tonics, blood tonics, and herbs that cool and circulate.

 

Then there's practice. Plenty to explore there.

Yin tonics are needed by a lot of people - but if you have compromised digestion they can make your situation worse. There's a saying in Chinese medicine "xu bu shou bu" which means deficiency unable to accept supplementation. Supplements are often very concentrated and nourishing, an already deficient person may compound their problem by taking too much.

Even so called tonics can have adverse effects if you take them based on ideas rather than your actual body situation.

If, for example, I was Confucious' disciple, the entire situation would be different. For one Confucious would know me personally. He'd know my past. He'd know what I don't know, what I know, and where I am in the middle Confucious, being a master teacher, I would give my utmost attention to.

Confucious had hundreds, if not thousands of disciples. He certainly didn't share an intimate relation with all of them.

But this also wasn't his doctrine. One of his often quoted pearls of wisdom (at least in China) translates as: "For every three people walking down the street, one could be my teacher." Does he mean master? No. Teacher. From one third of all people he could learn something. Personally, I would say that ratio is even higher. Now this can't be considered teaching in the traditional sense, but, by observing who they are and I react to them - I learn about life and about myself. Everything we see and experience can be a mirror.

Continuing about teacher styles, stories also claim Laozi's teacher taught him nothing at all and that's why Laozi was so wise (the implication is that his teacher asked questions but never gave answers).

Then said a teacher, "Speak to us of Teaching."

And he said:

No man can reveal to you aught but that which already lies half asleep in the dawning of our knowledge.

The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but rather of his faith and his lovingness.

If he is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.

The astronomer may speak to you of his understanding of space, but he cannot give you his understanding.

The musician may sing to you of the rhythm which is in all space, but he cannot give you the ear which arrests the rhythm nor the voice that echoes it.

And he who is versed in the science of numbers can tell of the regions of weight and measure, but he cannot conduct you thither.

For the vision of one man lends not its wings to another man.

And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth.

-- Kahlil Gibran

It just so happens sometimes students are spoon fed high quality knowledge/wisdom and sometimes poor quality knowledge/wisdom as well as some students are spoon fed actual ability. Its when people are spoon fed actual ability they really don't know how to earn it through using proper methods... and possibly hard work.

 

I say this because I understand and have seen both parts of the spectrum. (sadly rarely a teacher did give me both high quality knowledge/wisdom and wanted me to work hard.)

If a teacher spoon feeds his student, he is telling, not teaching. And it's to the student's great detriment.

All wisdom is earned. Even the wisest words are empty shells without your own understanding to fill them in. And just the same as wisdom, all ability is worked for. Even natural talent needs development.

Techniques without gongfu, wise words without wisdom, these are the merits of spoon feeding.

If you're young, unattached and looking for adventure - go.

But if you're running from some imperfection - know it will find you where ever you go.

Dont give up so fast! And get a teacher... If you dont want a teacher, change your priorties and get a teacher anyway

 

I have osteoarthiritis in my knee. After one month with the arthitic pain in full bloom I started to work out the upper body. That was enough the actually get the healing in the knee speed up very fast. Two months after I was able to run again. And now, 4 months after I am working to get into full lotus again. Almost there now

 

The thing that did it for me was lifting wheigts and working out everything in the body that didnt hurt. And then I begun working out my knee very slowly and carefully as fast as I could. The worst thing you can do is keep your knees still, untrained and cold for too long. The second worst thing you can do is overdoing it

 

And of course I eat MSM, Glucosamine, omega-3, Tart Cherry and Spirulina. A very good joint-pain cocktail.

Personal experience posts like these are one of the reasons I visit Taobums.

If you don't mind my asking, how old were you when the arthritis kicked in?

I wont address the issue of beef being a pretty poor choice environmentally speaking.

Energetically speaking, beef is has a balanced to warm nature depending on the species and is a very good tonic food. It's especially good for building Jing (the foundation of qi, blood, yang and yin in the body). Because it's so nourishing, it's slow to digest and can cause problems for people with weakened digestion. However, taken in small amounts, raw it's very easy to absorb - especially spiced like beef tartar, Mmmm.

I personally experienced the effects once in Czech Republic. Two weeks prior had a pretty serious flu and was still feeling pretty weak. Within the first half hour of eating a dish of tartarski biftek my energy levels had significantly increased and after two hours I was feeling better than new.

Where it up to me, beef would only be used for occasional and medical purposes (and perhaps for butter and kefir).

...

ralis,

What are your solutions exactly? And what's the problem with permaculture? I've seen some pretty amazing permaculture gardens - they're mini ecosystems outfitted with complementary groups of plants - how is that linear (especially in comparison to modern monocrops)?

And some who imagined that technology and convenience impeded their practice, will discover too late that it facilitated their practice.

!

The only thing technology impedes is our ability to develop focus and willpower.

I'm not sure I've ever read anything in Daoism about nature being perfect. Nature is a system, its a set of laws. Happiness and suffering are, consequently, a derivative of how you understand and follow these laws.

In the Huangdi Neijing (Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic) there is a statement in the very first chapter:

Ni yu sheng le.

Disobeying breeds entertainment.

In other words, disobeying these natural laws can bring excitement, entertainment, etc in the short term, but, it's also the origin of disease. Disobedience is only taboo in so much as it hurts yourself in the long run. I would even say that Daoism shows little concern for some far removed ideal of perfection - it is immediate and practical. Understand and solve the most immediate problems in your life first.

This is why Daoist cultivation practice begins with physical health. First understand and apply the physical laws of nature for your own physical well-being. The fit survive. Mastering these laws first on the physical level, it become easy to apply them on the social and universal level. But to skip the physical, reaching directly for the universal is great folly. There's a reason we have a body.

Ren fa di, di fa tian, tian fa dao, dao fa ziran.

Man follows earth, earth follows the cosmos, the cosmos follows Dao, and Dao follows nature.

This book is a classic on native nutrition - Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, by Weston Price, now online here.

Great! I love the nourishing traditions cookbook.

Sure, gravity sucks, and a lot else in this existence besides! I'm not sure about bringing religious concepts into it like good and evil (although maybe I implied that, without me knowing it).

...

But the natural world and the physical body seem increasingly flawed or suspect to me these days, especially in my own practice which is getting less rewarding. Why aren't we allowed to judge nature? We're a part of it, but there's undeniably pain and suffering in nature! (Perhaps 'discern' or 'contemplate' is a better word than 'judge').

Aren't the things that suck the things that keep life going? Without gravity, there would be no sun, no earth. Without death, there would be no higher life (the world would be clogged with immortal amoebas!). Without destruction, there would be no creation. "Bad" things create a space for "good" things.

Have you noticed yet that suffering can make you improve?

We all see the world through the lens of our body. The appropriate question is: is nature at fault, or is your lens the problem?

Here is a problem where translation is important.

Mind, in the case of "where the mind goes, Qi goes," is called Yi. Yi, 意, is related to the spleen or central network in traditional philosophy. The character breaks down into 音 which means sound or image over 心 which means heart. So Yi is the images of the heart. Sound like something familiar? Yi dao, Qi dao - where the Yi goes, Qi goes.

Mind is also a common translation of Shen, 神, which also gets translated as Spirit and perhaps is most accurately translated as consciousness.

Now it's my understanding that for most people Shen and Yi are pretty much undifferentiated in waking life. Meaning that we are pretty much being conscious of the sounds and images of our mind. However in cultivation, the two need to be distinguished.

Muscles take cues from the skin, so the poeple into deep tissue massage are going the wrong way.

 

Put your hand over your neck (or both hands to cover more area) and tighten the muscles in your hands (dont squeeze youe neck) as you breathe in, then relax the muscles in your hands as you breathe out.

Very interesting!

my sifu gave me some exercises to do as well as worked on some kinks in my neck (and damn, he never shows us anything that doesn't hurt haha + it worked really well right away + felt really good but really painful too), and talked a little bit about tense muscles.

Go on.. what did the trick for you? What where you doing wrong and what did you need to be doing right?

I've heard of both, and am familiar with people with powers and "abilities" but are they considered Enlightened?

Who could say?

I asked about spontaneous qigong (zi fa dong gong) quite a bit when I first came to China - to that point it had been one of my regular practices. I never experienced really crazy stuff, just movements and stretches, all very fluid, some swinging and swaying, and always naturally ended in a meditation position. It was nice, like the energy worked out the kinks.

When I asked some Chinese cultivators about it, the answers I got were mainly that zi fa dong gong is good for resolving Xie Qi but too much practice can take you down an unpredictable course. As to what the unpredictable course was? Views differed.

Some say it leads to Yin Shen, fake Dao, etc.

Others say you simply won't know what you'll end up with.

Personally, I only experienced positive benefits in my few months of regular spontaneous qigong practice, but I also don't discount tradition lightly.

thanks for the fast reply. I am already learning yichuan and taiji from a qualified teacher, so I don't really have the time or money to learn hatha yoga as well. I will ask my teacher for help too because he seems to know about body work and such too.

 

I will do your exercises and report back here with results in a few weeks or so.

Hey man,

How have the headaches been since you started practicing Yiquan and Taiji? Did they start with the practice?

I ask because these practices should open the neck and shoulders, but performed improperly can put more tension into the shoulders. As does improper Yoga. Keeping the shoulders down to give the neck space is key. In Taiji this is called developing the turtle back.

In Yoga, creating space for the back of the neck is more obvious and more emphasized. In Taiji, you develop proper form, energy flow, and relaxation by practicing large frame first. Practicing too small, too soon will bring about qi stagnation in the neck, shoulders, elbows, etc. Lately it seems small frame has been getting all the hype, but it's ridiculous, you need to be able to perform both.

Generally, I've found Zhanzhuang also helps the neck, but you need to stand long enough through let the qi flow clear out the painful stagnations.

Hello and thx for that explanation. I have been looking for a such explanation for awhile. I wounder also if the same is true with the tan tien. That there is a feeling of tan-tien or in the tan-tien area that people call tan-tien. And that are a completely different level of opening the dan-tien, which some call the real tan-tien, or more righly which is the right experience to call it tan-tien in the first place.

F D

Yes.

Everyone has a Xia Tian, or lower field, but not everyone has a Xia Dan Tian. The Dan, internal elixer, is also created slowly through practice.

Another big difference between slow, practiced phenomenon, and quickly appearing mental wind phenomenon is that the practiced phenomenon is accompanied by physical changes. The Lower Dan Tian is an especially physical thing, associated with the center of gravity, the core muscles, kidneys, lower back, and vitality. The ability to contract and store energy in the Lower Dan Tian is necessarily reflected in the body's overall strength and vitality. This is also why cultivators with good waigong tend to progress more quickly in neigong (and vice versa).

But again, that's not to discredit "qigong masters" who lack these characteristics. Qi has many qualities and the Qi issued and stored by the Lower Dantian has a different quality than the Qi of the Middle and Upper Dan Tian. But, in Dan Dao practice, the Lower Dan Tian is cultivated first and only once firmly established, used to nourish and practice the Middle and Upper Dan Tian.

Proper cultivation of the Lower Dan Tian is relatively slower, safer and more physical. That's not to say it's the only way.

Also Dao Zhen mentiones the False Water Wheel in this post: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=102985

 

I wonder how many methods here in the west(or the east!) who will be categorized as False Water Wheel methods...

According to orthodox practice most, if not almost all, MCO (xiao zhou tian) methods in the west are false practices.

However, false may not be the best word, because these practices still may have health benefits. More accurately, they are simply different practices.

Using the mind, the orbit that can be achieved in a very short period of time. But this is a different practice from the orbit that occurs automatically through filling the Dantian. From my experience, the second "real" MCO practice is much more similar to the Kundalini rising phenomenon - if not the same thing. Energy begins at the base of the spine and, over time through practice, pushes it's way up. Specifically, it needs to build and push through the three gates (sacrum, between the shoulders, and the cerebellum area).

So, briefly put, the method prevalent in the west uses the mind and moves a little Qi. The method outlined in Lingbao Bifa, among other classics, is achieved through long term practice and moves a lot of Qi.

Verdesi, what a story teller! Have you noticed some people in life are just like that. In our flexible reality they weave a tale so beautifully..

But alas I just read this here story instead of practicing taiji.

What darebak said has real meaning,

3 years ago another teacher, Master Wu, stated bluntly, "form doesn't matter so much, there are many good forms. Practice is what's important." As I recall, David told students to practice 1.5 hours every morning and evening. If you practiced anything 3 hours a day - Eight Brocades, Taiji, Zhan Zhuang, Yoga - you'll either be getting serious results or practicing seriously wrong.

The way I see it, that neither denigrates or validates Verdesi's teachings.

But it does validate that you've put in the effort to get back some results - that's meaningful! And if Vedesi's story brought you to practice, then for all its theatrics, it still helped.

Is there an explanation of the process of yawning (what and why) from an energetic view?

Yawning and sighing are both mechanisms to clear Qi stagnation - chronic, frequent yawning is a sign chronic stagnation in the Lung Network, Liver Network or both.

One of the causes: "too much thinking, not enough breathing, for starters."

Awake,

What you are experiencing is not rapid progress, it is mental wind. This is why, traditionally, sensations were not described to the student before hand. When undertaking a practice, one learns the outward form (that can include mind form as well as physical form). Practicing the form, many sensations begin to appear. Some are wind, chatter, etc - the body balancing and settling; others are Qi activity that correct practice produces.

The student describes his sensations, not knowing the "correct answer", and the teacher gives the next practice once the student begins practicing the correct sensations into being.

If the student knows what he should be feeling ahead of time, mental wind can simply create the sensation - a type of consciously or sub-consciously produced hallucination. This is not the correct way.

Therefore it is very difficult to properly practice from a book. You need the wisdom to separate real from imaginary, and the ability to know the path without desiring to make progress on it. Very difficult.

I would second Dirkhrod's suggestion. It's a good way to clean your slate.