松永道

I can't find "The Prophet" by Gibran right now (really pisses me off when I can't find something). But he has a quote that has always stuck in my mind about love and since I can't find it I hope I can get a paraphrase close -- No I'm not even going to try, I can't do it justice. Helping others and loving all is fantastic but I THINK (just my two cents) that you have to strike a balance ... you have to take care of yourself too.

ｄｕｄｅ．．　ｙｏｕ＇ｒｅ　ｎｅｖｅｒ　ｗｉｔｈｏｕｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｐｒｏｐｈｅｔ．　Ｂｕｔ　ｌｉｋｅ　ａｌｌ　ｇｒｅａｔ　ｃｌａｓｓｉｃｓ，　ｙｏｕ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｒｅａｌｌｙ　ｐｕｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｂｅｓｔ　ｐａｒｔｓ　ｔｏ　ｍｅｍｏｒｙ．　Ｏｎ　Ｌｏｖｅ．．　Ｉ＇ｌｌ　ｌｅｔ　ｙｏｕ　ｆｉｎｄ　ｙｏｕｒ　ｏｗｎ　ｑｕｏｔｅ．

Ｏｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｍａｎ，　ａ　ｓａｆｅ　ｇｕｙ？　　Ａｌｌ　ｓｉｇｎｓ　ｓｔｉｌｌ　ｐｏｉｎｔ　ｔｏ　ａ　ｐｒｅｐｏｎｄｅｒａｎｃｅ　ｏｆ　Ｙｉｎ／ｌａｃｋ　ｏｆ　Ｙａｎｇ．　　Ｎｏｗ　ｔｈｅｒｅ　ａｒｅ　ｗａｙｓ　ｔｏ　ｒｅｍｅｄｙ　ｔｈｅ　ｓｉｔｕａｔｉｏｎ．　　Ｂｕｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｑｕｅｓｔｉｏｎ　ｉｓ，　ｄｏｅｓ　ｈｅ　ｗａｎｔ　ｔｏ　ｃｈａｎｇｅ？

this is an odd question for me to ask, as it is something very personal. I have been with the same guy for the last year, and have known for the beginning that he lacked a "normal" sex drive. at first, it was at least 2-3 times a month, but for the last 4 months or so....i've been lucky to get it once every month and a half -two months. I have asked him about this, and he becomes very upset. He knows that this isn't normal behavior for a 27 year old male. He says he simply doesn't have the urge anymore. He says it has been going on for years and we just don't know what to do about it. He hates to take medication for anything. So, I would like to know what natural herbs and such would be helpful.

A rather Yin guy huh?

Tight neck and shoulders, easily tired lower back (likes to slouch)? Tends to forget to eat? Or sporadically eats, sometimes lot sometimes little, without daily rhythm?

If any of that sounds familiar this is a common pattern that acupuncture and herbs would definitely help. So would more exercise - especially exercises for the lower abdominal (dantian) area. Best of all would be reverse abdominal breathing, but maybe that's more work than he's looking for. In fact, it's a challenge to control the sex drive once a reverse abdominal breathing practice has been established.. maybe that's more work that you're looking for.

Does anybody have an idea how to solve the situation?

 

P.S. And if somebody had or has this very problem I'd be especially grateful to hear from you.

Is the same pie different if you slice it into different sizes?

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In any case, the Chakras are centered along the Chong Mai (Penetrating Vessel) of Daoist Medicine. Whether or not they where added due to Buddhist influence, who's to say? But the notion is present, as are the right and left channels of Yoga, they just aren't what's emphasized.

Filter it through culture. Chinese culture is traditionally conservative, it contains, holds on to - the only culture on earth to build a giant wall to keep what's in, in and what's out, out - as such it makes sense that this culture would emphasize the storage batteries of the body. However, these batteries are cultivated. Everyone has the three 'tian' or fields, but not everyone has the 'dan tian' elixer fields. The elixer is cultivated. The 'tian' field is just where it is cultivated.

Imagine three circles:

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0

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Stacked vertically touching one another. Where they touch are the odd chakras. Their centers are the even chakras. They are the three fields. (The upper is the halo typically seen in religious art, the middle halo is also frequently drawn, though more often in Hindu, Tibetan and Buddhist art, the lower, largest field is rarely illustrated.) The Dan elixers are created at the center of these fields. They are not the same as the 2nd, 4th and 6th Chakras, though they do have relation.

Chinese medicine operates primarily on the 2nd Chakra, lower Dan Tian frequency.

are you practicing long men pai neigong? who is your teacher?

Yes. However, my teacher is not a monk, he's a doctor.

are you a neigong practitioner? have you read the xing da dao?

I own it and have read the sections pertinent to my level of practice. At my teacher's behest, I have not delved too much into certain theories before the supporting experience arrives. Too much theory, too soon is more a burden than blessing. Though I do practice neigong, my level is low, so low, I haven't even finished mended my leaks let alone cultivated to the door step of real Yang Shen practice.

But if there's a specific section you'd like to discuss, by all means bring it up, maybe Ken will add some of his insights.

Tardy I know, but I'm at a loss for what to say. I've reentered a period of reveling in the basics. I love the basics. Over and over firming the foundation.

As such perhaps I'm projecting, but I don't want to fuel any grasping at the branches. More theory upon theory just stirs the mind. Essential to this practice is a real foundation in the body, a genuine stillness. And this is simply practiced. It's too simple. Practice is like boiling water, the start is exciting, you turn on the fire. Then you watch and watch and it seems nothing is happening. Then a few bubbles and suddenly BOILING. Just like that.

Don't keep switching the pots, the water, the burner - the secret ingredient is patience.

So what am I to write?

Anyone who has already developed their practice has no need for me to write on the Ling Bao Bi Fa. The prerequisites for real neigong are too simple. Practice and develop the body, the Jing, and develop a foundation in stillness meditation.

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On a scholarly topic like the difference between Ling, Linghun, and Shen - I'm not sure I have the depth of experience to really explain the differences. They are all terms for Spirit. Ling is generally associated with ghosts (lingguai), gods (shenling), the soul (linghun and xinling). The theory of animism is called Linghun lun (lun just means theory). Ling is also associated with quickness and cleverness.

Shen is even more complicated. It's also associated with spirit and deities, cleverness, and additionally, unlike Ling, with vitality. The Shen referred to in Chinese Medicine is this Shen - meaning vitality, vigor, a brightness in the eyes and mind.

Lonny Jarrett, a 5-Elements practitioner (a field of acupuncture that is quite different from TCM) claims that Shen is associated with Qi and therefore Yang and Ling is associated with blood and therefore Yin. An abundance of Yang Shen results in bright eyes, a vital body and clear mind. An abundance of Yin Ling manifests as a harmony with the universe, being on your path, very wu-wei, life does without doing. A balanced abundance of Yin and Yang then is what he defines as manifesting destiny.

Personally, when I think of Shen the English word that comes closest is consciousness. And depending on how you use it this can be personal or a more universal, collective consciousness. Jing is the material foundation of Shen - the two are inseparable. Kind of like the notion in physics of space-time, the Daoist fabric of the universe is jing-shen. Material-consciousness.

Ahh an excuse for some nostalgia. I guess the night is right.

Born to a normal suburban family. Selected in elementary school for the school district's "high potential" program which basically meant through the end of high school me and a handful of other students got to cut class once a week to attend interesting lectures and play mental puzzles. Certainly made my ego feel oh *so* special.

Driven by interest in the mind/body and human potential but still confined by the firm grip of "success", I studied the biomedical sciences. Attended a liberal arts school I also majored in acting - a field that struck me as a far more interesting study of the mind than the psychology track.

Graduated from college with honors, scored in the 98.5 percentile on the MCATs, worked as an Americorps volunteer to gain some "real life" experience before going to medical school.. and in the course of real life became utterly depressed.

It seemed so meaningless, something was certainly missing, but what was it? Funneled by education to that point, I learned to fill in the blanks, but here was a blank with no concrete answer. I guess I had an existential crisis. And, to make a long story short, I resolved it by taking responsibility for that blank in my life - I stopped blaming it on what I didn't have; external things - and I did something about it. I decided to live the life most interesting and meaningful to me. And what followed flowed naturally from learning qigong, to studying chinese medicine, to winding up in China.

And still life flows along, the river of yuanfen, and I swimmer with her current.

But I'm not a Daoist, Buddhist, Christian, theist or atheist. I'm not agnostic either. Maybe I'm still to young to understand. But it just seems life provides what make of it. A dance of paradox between fate and freewill.

Where are you getting your data from? 1, there's been plenty of times in earth's history where the ppm of CO2 has been higher - much higher than it is now - and yes, times when the earth has been flourishing with life. 2, this "spike" is well within normal variability.

In the past when CO2 levels were higher, life was certainly flourishing. Of course, that was life adapted to living in those conditions. Was it intelligent? Was it like us? Could we live under those conditions?

Yea lets wait and see.. if the cancer kills us quickly or slowly.

How to use this forum:

Equanimity practice. There are a lot of rubbish posts and comments, this is the internet after all. Spectacular claims, magical thinking, and ego junkies are the training ground for a balanced mind. To quote a friend, "living in society makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker."

Reviewing and restructuring. Sometimes a good question comes up and you've either experienced or studied the topic at hand. Take an opportunity to revise and refresh your ability to communicate on the subject.

Question collector. Answers are dead, incomplete things. They lack nuance and soul. Questions, on the other hand, are the starting line for understanding. This place is rife with questions.

Symptom study. Few forums have so many people sharing their symptoms, emotions, and energetic sensations. Great for TCM study and surely applicable to other students of the mind-body.

Mirror me. Most of the advice we give, we're really giving for ourselves. With only a bit of introspection, we can find what annoys us about others, the places we feel the need to intervene - it's all directly related to us. Something we can't accept about ourselves, something we want to change. Your advice is a sign of where you're at. It's how you see your own life.

And on and on...

And maybe something you write just might help someone.

Attending a vipassana retreat is one of the best ways I know to get a foot hold.

Many techniques settle the mind, some artificial, some natural. Artificial ones include counting, mantra, etc. Natural ones are watching the breath, increasing awareness of sensation, letting go of thoughts as they come.

More than anything else, regular practice is required. Settling the mind is like digging a whole in the sand. Dig ten feet one day, the next day your ten feet has filled in all but ten inches. Don't despair, just keep digging. Be patient and persist.

Keep in mind many masters in China and India who have pursued this route have spent years upon years just realizing this foundation.

So I'm supposed to go out and find the reason why she has a low libido?

I would suggest going to a TCM doctor. NCNM has a clinic on NW Pettygrove. Outside In also offers free, need-based acupuncture. Depending on your friend's condition, acupuncture and moxibustion may be enough.

Portland is teeming with fair priced acupuncturists. Depending on who you go to they may even be able to suggest a medical qigong practice to help things along.

Well, Eva Wong whose translation I cited is indeed a practicing, lineage taoist. (Song Yong Dao asserts she's taken some liberties with her translation; are you asserting he's taken some with his? But you've taken some with English while expressing this thought and yet I understand you! )

I did. I aspire not to but my experience and the teachings I have receive bias my interpretation. There is one portion that could be translated as a direct slight to Buddhism - I chose not to interpret it as such. Honestly, the comment didn't seem consistent with the rest of the text and I even wonder if it was added later on - when dealing with copies of copies of copies of the original you always have to wonder if the scribes are adding or subtracting. After all, even today in China weight is given to ancient authorities over modern ideas. How often were 'ancient' documents miraculously 'discovered' to support modern ideas?

Academically, translations should be exact as possible. But personally, you've got to go by gut. Here is where actually practicing the material and having a good teacher is priceless.

Master Tseng Chen told us that Yuan Shen is the original mind and Shi Shen is the conditioned mind that arises in life. YS and SS decrease in ratio as you age. Is this your understanding as well?

That's the general idea. However, I'm not sure if it works as a ratio or if it works more like a switch. Many patients hallucinate deceased friends and relatives on their death bed, forgive old grudges, and come to peace. Interestingly western science has found the pituitary gland, under stress of death, begins producing DMT. In other words, the Yuan Shen becomes active.

Stigweard, quote away. No worries.

Scotty, as for the Vipassana study, I heard it a while ago in some Ken Wilbur stuff. I'd be interested in finding the article myself.

This is all very interesting sounding stuff....

 

But isn't this all just at the lowest level? Yin/Yang, isn't it all just still the whole duality and judgment concept that we (Daoist, Buddhist, whatever), are trying to get OUT of? Aren't we trying to NOT make these distinctions?

 

If there is a distinction, won't they become known through practice and all that?

The lowest level is the most important. It's the foundation. Understanding comes through practice.

I find your comparisons of Taoism and Buddhism to be apt and lacking in the usual subtle anti-Buddhist sentiment often found in these comparisons. I was wondering if you could elaborate on this and the different kinds of Shen. How are each cultivated?

Despite the perceived rivalry, Buddhism and Daoism have an equally long history of cooperation. Though they both present complete systems, I would say because Buddhist cultivation emphasizes the mental/spiritual and Daoism, the physical/energetic it's good to study each for its strengths.

Now after reading some of The Classic of Chong and Lu I am left with the feeling that we have a Hun/Po designation of Yang Shen and Yin Shen.

I'm interested in writing a more in depth article on this later. For now I'll give a very brief outline. I'm assuming a basic familiarization with the terms Shen, Hun, Po, Yi, and Zhi.

For now I'll just touch on four different designations of Shen, two common to everyone and two practiced into being.

Shi Shen (识神): This is the post-heaven Shen. It's our daily mind. The Shi Shen loves movement. It loves stimulation. Most of all it loves your attention. Maybe it's our inner toddler. The Shi Shen is an ego maniac. It wants to trick you into believing you're it.

Yuan Shen (元神): This is the pre-heaven Shen or original Shen. The Yuan Shen loves stillness. Generally speaking, the Yuan Shen won't wake until death or near death. But if you can completely calm the Shi Shen, the Yuan Shen will begin to stir. And so the Sage hacks the system and dies before dying.

Yin Shen (阴神): Much like the Shi Shen, it is associated with Po and so associated with emotions and ultimately ego. Po, corporeal spirit of the Lung network, governs Qi. A Yin Shen practice, therefore, develops the ability of the mind, Shi Shen, to control Qi. The practices can be very powerful but they never eliminate the Shi Shen. Developing Po is like acquiring material wealth, you don't take it with you.

Yang Shen (阳神): Yang Shen is associated with Hun. Hun is said to be our immortal aspect. Yang Shen practice is also called Three Immortals practice in the Ling Bao Bi Fa. Wei Bo Yang outlines two methods for achieving Yang Shen, the Greater Virtue path and the Lesser Virtue path. The Greater Virtue path is accomplished through the elimination of desires. Desireless the Jing to Qi to Shen to Xu process happens quickly and automatically. The Lesser Virtue path involves the step by step process of creating the Lower Dan Tian and undergoing the arduous alchemical process. Neither path is better or worse, nor are they mutually exclusive. Generally speaking, many start on the Lesser Virtue path to strengthen the body, the Jing, and the Will for the obvious reason that without these basic requirements, it's nearly impossible to attain the state of genuine, unattached stillness.

Again, generally speaking, Daoists tends to emphasize the Lesser Virtue path, Buddhists, the Greater Virtue path. In the end, they achieve the same results, but the practitioner needs to be honest with themselves which path is more suited for them at this point in time. Personally I have practiced techniques from both. And while my mind is relatively suited for entering stillness, my body does not posses the robust health required to go the whole way in stillness. Waigong is the foundation for Neigong.

Interestingly, there was a study conducted using Vipassana meditation. New students were divided into two groups. One group did the standard Vipassana sitting, walking, standing meditations. The other group did these meditations and also secretly engaged in a full body weight lifting routine - unknown to the vipassana teachers. After a number of weeks the instructors were asked to evaluate their students and choose which students had made the best progress. The selected students were uniformly from the weight lifting group. Our ancestors too understood the importance of cross-training.

So what would your comments be on the Yin/Yang nature of Shen and its pratical implications for personal cultivation?

I can come up with academic advice another time maybe. But personally, I think cultivation is simple. Strengthen the body, settle the mind. Cultivate Lesser Virtue practices like Taijiquan, Yoga, and/or neigong until the last of your desires fade then enter the Greater Virtue path to enlightenment. Be patient.

Seriously, unless you verify something from personal experience, be careful of extolling its virtues. Some people consider Pathgate to be akin to a cult, and I got that impression from my own experience.

Please expand on this if you get the chance.

Does anyone know if any of his students achieved even a fraction of Wang Liping's level? Did any of his students perhaps reach the level where he can for instance divide his original spirit in multiple individuals?

I haven't met Wang Liping, so I am not qualified to say. Nor have I ever knowingly seen a Yang Shen projection. Master Wang hasn't yet formally accepted any apprentices, he's taught students, but he hasn't begun to transmit his lineage. Entering the master-apprentice relationship bears a great responsibility. The master is responsible for bringing his apprentice to a certain level, the apprentice is responsible for receiving the transmission and continuing the lineage. A teacher, on the other hand, has no obligation to his student. He teaches, getting it or not is the student's responsibility. The student has no obligation to practice, and no obligation to teach other students.

Rarely do students achieve even a fraction of their teacher's ability. Those who do, do it of their own accord.

Master Wang certainly has some very high level students - many of his students are masters in their own right. But apart from Shen Laoshi, I don't know many who have studied only from Wang Liping's teachings.

It's my personal suggestion that anyone who wishes to study with Wang Liping or Shen Zhigang begins studying with an accessibly teacher or master in their area. Gaining expertise and transforming your body through internal martial arts would certainly give you a good foundation for genuine internal alchemy (In my opinion, any practice that develops a strong body and good qi flow would suffice, including Yoga, Yi Jin Jing qigong forms, etc).

Up's a daisy!

 

I meant "Bump!"

 

Ok, for you die-hard, interested few, any specific requests or shall I just start slowly adding more translations starting from the beginning. Are you interested in this as a practice or just comparative research?

...then I head off to meditate a few hours before I sleep...

If you're already able to still the body and mind in lotus for a few hours every night to do your neigong, you're already putting in enough time for the foundation. In time you should be able to add another session in the morning before work. I had a teacher who worked full time and still managed to put in a combined 10-12 hours a day of taiji and neigong, of course he only slept 2 hours - but when you're gaining so much energy from your practice that's more than enough. He said he only slept because that was a cultivation too!

10 hours is rough on a full-time schedule (my teacher luckily happened to have a very accommodating wife) but 6 should be a realistic goal. Even 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the night would build a nice foundation.

Moreover listening to other people can be an amazing practice - both spiritual and healing.

Most people listen just enough to start formulating a response. But to give the fullness of our attention to another person, without motive or desire - that's a spiritual practice on the interpersonal level.

When most people give advice, they're really giving it to themselves. Entrenching their own beliefs, rationalizing their own decisions, or trying to solve their own problems. They may as well be speaking to a mirror. And that's exactly what a good listener is.

At night when the lights are on in the home and it's dark outside, windows reflect the interior. Be the night, that listening Yin for another person. Help them see themselves.

We all need to see our own brightness and illuminate our own problems.

..and that's not even mentioning the benefits to the listener.

Move your ass and get yourself a job like everybody else instead of wasting people's time

Opening and managing a center would be a legitimate job. Anyone in their right mind aims to enjoy their work. Now the question is are you seeking to avoid a job you don't like or are you seeking to avoid responsibility altogether?

In any case I think finding people with similar interests in your area would do good for you and them.

School is part of life, if you can do it and get over it, you will enjoy life abit more too.

Education is a good part of life. But lets not loose sight that the goal of education is understanding not assimilation.

Say for the young monk who receives a very comprehensive education - that material life is an illusion, that lust for women is an inappropriate craving, eating meat pollutes the spirit, etc - here is a person who knows the answers a "fire living daoist" may discover, but, they haven't gone through the personal understanding to reach those answers.

I have met so many spiritual folks who miss out on legitimate life lessons because they already know, "I should act this way..." And they run into the same problems again and again because though they know the answer, they never understood the question.

I work for a career college in Colorado Springs, and we just added a new massage therapy program. One of the courses for this program is "Eastern Theory and Practice" and I was invited to give a short lecture on Taoism, since I am considered to be the resident nerd on Eastern religions at my campus.

 

I was thinking of explaining the Tao, wu wei, the three treasures, etc. and I am going to cite a passage from the Tao Teh Ching to illustrate each concept. I might also discuss some of the alchemical practices of Taoists, and tie that in with immortality.

 

Does anyone have suggestions for other things I could discuss? The teacher wants me to explain some of the "axioms" of Taoism, namely, that everything in the universe is governed by natural laws, that humanity should seek harmony with the universe, that everything is interdependent, etc. I am fairly confident about explaining these ideas, but some resources could help. Thanks.

One of the most fundamental notions in Daoism is 天人合一 (tian ren he yi) - Heaven and Man as One. Beyond, "everything in the universe is governed by natural laws, that humanity should seek harmony with the universe, that everything is interdependent, etc", what does this all mean practically? Daoism, likely due to the nature of Chinese culture, is an eminently practical philosophy. Though governed by the same laws, everything isn't the same; though it's all interconnected, everything is still separate and unique. The universe is holographic.

Chinese medicine applies this fundamental notion in diagnosis. The pulse, the tongue, the eyes, any part of the body reflects the whole of the body. You just need to know how to read it.

Likewise you have the Medical Dao, the Martial Dao, the Qin (ancient zither) Dao, etc because the universal laws are embodied in every activity. What emerges is a cultivation culture, seeking universal understanding through perfecting your art.

The same pattern echoing and reflecting through the cosmos.

Showing a video of the Mandelbrot Set wouldn't be a bad idea.

And would this split also apply somewhat within Taoism to the pre-Song, heavenly jindan "shen-qi-jing-void" approach vs post-Song, humanly neidan "jing-qi-shen-void" approach?BTW, this is rather confusing, because Lu Dongbin's Jin Dan Jiao (School of the Golden Elixir of Life) explains jindan, yet apparently his other teachings popularized neidan? So, although he knew both, he was apparently the turning point from one to the other during the Song Dynasty?

I'm not familiar with any texts that describe shen-qi-jing-void. Do you know where that reference comes from? The only processes of converting shen to qi to jing that I'm aware of occur in birth and as preliminary training for internal cultivation, ie Yin Xian Fa. But in that case you're using condensing shen to direct qi to build jing only to turn the process around jing to qi, qi to shen, shen to void.

However, there are differing opinions on just how that process was achieved. Wei Boyang in his "Zhouyi Cantongqi" mentions a Shang De, superior virtue, and a Xia De, lesser virtue path to immortality. Shang De, without desire, occurs naturally, even instantaneously. Xia De, ever desiring, uses disciplined method to achieve the same process. However, Wei Boyang considers both to be legitimate paths. Shen-qi-jing-void may be a description of the Shang De way .. or maybe not. In either case the black and white way of interpreting cultivation grayed over by Lu Dongbin's time to cultivating the spectrum of Xing mind/heart/virtue and Ming body/qi/power.

anyone have anything to say on this topic? never thought much of it, but synchronicities are leading me to take a peak..

T

The authors admitted they couldn't follow the tenets of the course themselves. But why not check it out, you could give the bums a report.

I'd be interested in hearing about your experiences of masters in china and what schools they belonged to.

For the most part they are affiliated in some way with Longmen Pai - Dragon Gate Lineage. Some monks, others householders. But I've also met masters in Huashan Pai, Emei, Zhengyi family, and even Confucian lineages.

I'm not qualified to say if any are enlightened. However, from my experience I think that genuine gongfu is more a matter of the cultivator, his or her teacher, and their relationship. The school is secondary. Not unimportant, just secondary.

Good luck.