xenolith

M'aussi.

Indeed. Edit 1: Spectrum, please accept my apology for participating in the diverting of this thread. Edit 2: I'll reply to Starjumper in the CCO thread. Love. xeno

Hi Starjumper. As we all know, the Tao is available to us all at all times. However, as far as I can tell, few have experienced it in the form of a CCO. This is not an inidictment. It just is. Fundamentally, CCOs are experiences of ego dimunition within which one finds awareness of self and the infinite energy field, the Tao, within which that self exists. So, more fundamentally, "access to the Tao" means "access to the self". As far as I can tell. Love. xeno

cat, I'm trying to be simple too. My current (simple) working hypothesis is that you're experiencing leaking chi "orgasms" which in accordance with Taoist tradition are not orgasms, but rather are deliveries of chi to places other than the crown. What do you think? Love. xeno

Hi Max, It's been 23 years since I began SKF training in accordance with Chia's Cultivating male Sexual Energy. It took 10 years of nearly daily training before I achieved my first CCO. As far as being "the only person who was successful in CCO a few times a year", well I'm sure I'll never know the answer to that, not to mention sure that I hope that that's not the case. My intuition tells me that others have, but it also tells me that I've not talked to any yet. So no, you're not correct. I'm quite curious about others' experiences with SKF. Hoping to find one (or more) to talk with is the primary reason why I joined this forum. As far as I can tell, no male member has offered their knowledge and experience of CCO. Two female members have, but their accounts of the experience are significantly different than my experience (which may simply be a gender based difference...I hope to investigate this here later). One, witch, who acknowledges no practice of OKF, presumably the mechanism by which females achieve CCO. The other, Taomeow, who describes CCO as a "reptillian" experience or something to that effect. Given that for me CCOs contain the highest order of beauty, I find their accounts simultaneously fascinating and disturbing. More of the latter. But I digress...allow me to answer your second question: I focus so much (of my writing on this forum) on the particular experience (sensation is an inadequate descriptor) of CCO because, based on my experience, it is the ultimate experience that a human being can experience. This understanding in no way denegrates the value of any other experience in Life, including meditation, pain and all others. Indeed, I hold that one should embrace and find value in all experiences. And I do. But for purposes of spiritual evolution, the CCO can't be beat! IMO of course. Lest I be misunderstood, my focus on discussion of CCO on this forum is also done for the benefit of others...those that have and those that have not (yet) realized an interest in spiritual evolution. For those other than these, my comments will likely be perceived as annoying or worse. For those to whom this applies, I'm very sorry. Please ignore me if this applies. Max, I compliment you are your inquisitiveness and courtesy. I hope I've answered your questions to your satisfaction. Please let me know if I haven't. Respectfully and with Love. xeno

No offense nor personal criticism taken. My comments regarding your posting style were offered for the benefit of the Forum. I don't need a teacher. Were you to (have) read my posts you would know why. Love. xeno

Yo peep. I'm the GrandPooba of Absolute Endless Insight of the gazillionth generation of the Surf Chiefs of Ultimate Knowledge of Whatness of the Universe . Actually I'm 0th generation me of the xenolithic lineage. Sorry dude, but I find infinite amusement in the claiming of knowledge of whatever by virtue of "lineages" or by anything else other than experience. All knowledge is available through experience within this thing called life my friend. So...what have you experienced in Life? And what knowledge has it conveyed to you. And of course, welcome to the TaoBums! Love. xeno

seandenty, With respect to questions of yours addressed to me, until such time as you demonstrate an awareness of the information that I've shared in this forum, I'll have to choose to ignore you. I mean no disrespect...there are simply too many like you to pay individual attention to each one of you. I'm very sorry that this is the case. Out of courtesy to you, here are a couple of relevant readings: this one's a thread, while this one's a single post. Love. xeno

Access to the Tao. Access to the Tao. Maybe you weren't paying attention...what I wrote was IOW, in excess of 99% of what Chia described in Cultivating Male Sexual Energy has been nearly exactly what I've experienced. Some of what you've stated, I agree with. But most not. Out of courtesy to you I'll refrain from further replying to your comments. I would, however, like you to understand that yours is the kind of negativity that serves to degrade the integrity of this forum. As has been discussed here recently, it is far better to share than to teach. Perhaps you've missed these discussions. Irrespective, allow me to encourage you to reconsider the manner in which you share. Also, several of your comments reveal that you haven't read posts of mine in which I've shared my experience with SKF. I encourage you to do so, as, if you pay attention, that effort should preclude further ignorance limiting posts. Which will certainly be an improvement. Love. xeno

I don't mind sharing at all Smile. I consider it an act of Love. With respect to the content of Chia's Cultivating Male Sexual Energy, I've found every single thing in it to be factual with the significant exception of the duration of time required to achieve movement of chi to the Ming-Men...Chia says "It may take one or two months for the power to pass the coccyx..." (pg. 127). In my experience, if "one or two months" is changed to "about 10 years", there would be absolutely nothing in that book that has been inconsistent with my experience. I should note that I find it significantly difficult to resolve his reference to the requirement for "10,000 Big Draws" before being able to move chi to the Ming-Men (I'm sorry, I don't have that particular page reference handy...I'll look for it later and edit this post to include it later). That count certainly seems inconsistent with a "one to two month" time frame. Nonetheless, everything else described in that book has been consistent with my experience. Frankly it's perplexed me ever since I've looked into Taoism beyond my own experience how there could be so many people who found fault with Chia. Frankly^2, that perplexion is part of why I'm here. I don't get it. I do get Chia. Frankly^3, my working hypothesis is that Nan Huai-Chin is right, less than 1 in 10,000 will succeed at seminal retention to the degree required for "enlightenment"...this makes more than 10,000 critics for each fan. Well, you asked. Remember, I'm just sharing. Love. xeno

You're very welcome Ian. And please, don't apologize for anything relating to my earlier version of my post. Interestingly, all that that post contained was true except for the part about the influence of others on my path...the reality is best expressed by a sage who opined "What is the problem? I AM THE PROBLEM!" . Thank you for that and for that most intriguing reference. In the case of the former, I'll look to share with more consideration of the range of possible responses that may occurr and in the case of the latter, I'll look into finding and reading it with great interest. Thank you very much on both counts! Truly, there are many paths to the Tao. Indeed, all paths lead to the Tao. In question is whether that path will be completed in this life. Or some other. Love. xeno

Based on my experience, I disagree with that statement Smile. I understand that you're not teaching, just sharing . Me too. I do think the illustrations are neat, but I can recognize no utility in them for Taoist healing practice.

Suspend that belief. And consider believing what I've told you, that I like, respect and Love you. As far as I can tell, the closest you've come to answering my questions is to say that you "had the bright idea of doing the sixth chakra thing for a while". Well, there was was the sugar cookie baking with a burgundy pot roast answer...thank you for that. Please, take each question and answer it individually. Thank you. My dear, I could see that. That's why I recommended that you come here. Please help me by answering my questions. It will help me and others to help you. Love. xeno

Bums, I've posted about Seminal Kung Fu (SKF) and achieving Crown Chakra (or Center) Orgasm (CCO) in this thread and others. Based on my experience, the most difficult move of SKF is pumping chi past the sacral pump to the Ming-Men. Also difficult, but less so (again, based on my experience) is distilling jing into chi so that it may enter the coccyx and therefore be further moved to higher centers. I've found that a strong Bulbospongiosus (sometimes referred to as Bulbocavernous) muscle contributes greatly to expiditing these more difficult moves. In the case of the former, flexing of a (strong) BS muscle significantly assists the sacral pump in moving chi past this most difficult of hurdles. Even more significant assistance is provided by the strong BS muscle in the case of the latter, where it facilitates juggling of hot jing, without loss, allowing it to cool and be distilled into cool chi, which may then be propelled into the coccyx (again assisted by the strong BS muscle) and upward to the sacral pump. Where, as previously described, the strong BS muscle again, still has some significant benefit in supporting the sacral pump. Considering these benefits, clearly a strong BS muscle is a tremendous advantage to succesful accomplishment of negotiation of the most difficult of the SKF moves required to achieve adeptness and experience of CCO. The best way to strengthen the BS muscle is with weight lifting. Tu Jin-Sheng is a current leader of iron crotch techniques that focus on strengthening the BS muscle and facilitating, among the spiritually significant endeavors of MCO activation, SKF adeptness and achievement of CCO, seemingly unbelievable physical of strength with the BS muscle. In the former video, Tuck lifts what I think is 150lbs. I have no idea what force Tu is moving in the latter video...big though. My current training weight is 100-120lbs., which I lift in 20-30 minutes sets. My current maximum weight is about 180-200lbs., which I lift in the manner of Tuck. I can kegel-lift approximately half of my training weight. Kegel-lift strength is BS muscle strength. I'd post a picture of me lifting but I'm too modest. In short, I recomend that men interested in the spiritually significant endeavors of MCO activation, SKF adeptness and achievement of CCO, strengthen their BS muscles. Love. xeno

How did you achieve this CCO? Both in the immediately prior case and in the as preparation case. Was there a conditioning period? If so, how long was it? Again, in both the immediately prior and in the preparatory case. How did you generate jing? How did you distill it to chi? How long did it take you to learn/condition yourself to move your chi to your Ming-Men (Door of Life)? How much longer after that did it take to learn/condition yourself to move your chi to your Pai-Hui (Crown Center)? What did the golden nectar taste/smell like? What did the experience consist of? How long did it last? How did you make it continue? So you're not spiritual...has the experience changed that? If so how? Curious. Thanks. Love. xeno

Thanks Trunk. I didn't mean to connote that she/we didn't try methods such as some of the ones contained in that excellent reference. She/we did. They worked for me and didn't for her. Craig and Taoist, minor point, I use SKF to mean what Chia referred to it as, Seminal Kung Fu. There is also OKF, Ovarian Kung Fu.

Very interesting discussion. I wonder about the female mechanism for MCO activation too. Our new female member witch reports a CCO within a very high frequency of vaginal orgasms. These are analogous to prostate orgasms in men, and are tremendous drains of sexual energy that completely disrupt the distillation of jing to chi and disperse chi before it can be brought to the sacral pump (I refer to these orgasms as "leaking chi" orgasms). For men, they are antithetical to the achievement of movement of chi to higher centers. Makes me wonder. What I do know: Mrs. x (long before she became mrs. x) faithfully trained (kegel egg, egg weights) in accordance with the guidance from the Chias' "Cultivating Female Sexual Energy" and while she was able to extend her menstrual cycle to about 8 weeks and strengthen her happy parts considerably , she never felt her chi enter her sacral pump. She trained for about 3 years. Maybe that wasn't long enough to attain that benchmark of MCO activation. I think that's the case, I know it wasn't for me. But I'm not a woman, so I don't know. Basically confused and conflicted about female MCO/CCO mechanics. Probably meant to be that way...woman are supposed to be mysterious right?! Indeed. "Some men may not be ready for many more lifetimes to change stages." - Mantak Chia (ref: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;st=0). But it can be done. I've done it. I'm sorry if it offends anyone for me to say that. I mean not to. I say it not out of pride, but out of Love and the hope that sharing the truth of what I've experienced may benefit others who may be able to experience it too. I hope that's understood. I know it sounds incredibly corny, like some Timothy Leary acolyte, but I know that the world would be a better place if we all could experience a CCO. I'm saddened because it seems so unreasonably unfortunate that so few apparently ever do. Maybe Chia is right...it's just a matter of sufficient lifetimes. Which is only slightly less saddening. I've rambled enough for tonight. Cheers. And Love. xeno p.s. CCO shouldn't be thought of orgasms...I think it was MatBlack who stated this...I agree. They're not sexual experiences at all. They're awareness experiences. p.s.s. Fer pitysakes fellas!...you can have sex and be on the path to spiritual evolution, just practice SKF when you do. Hello McFly!...you can have more sex this way!

Justin Wilson.

I'm very positively impressed with both the concern for others inherent in the question and the understanding of the duality of the Tao with respect to the "simple" and the "complex" expressed in the replies provided. As in all things, the complex may only be mastered by means of mastery of the simple. This doesn't mean that one cannot find deep "simple" meaning in a dew drop on the petal of a daisy, but it does mean that one will not be able to find the deep "complex" meaning of a dew drop on the petal of a daisy until one has found the former. The topic in general has been addressed by Mantak Chia... Excerpted (and abbreviated) from Chapter Ten: The Seven Spiritual Stages of Cultivating Sexual Energy (pgs. 163-179) of Taosit Secrets of Love: Cultivating Male Sexual Energy The Seven Spiritual Stages of Taoist Sexual Energy Cultivation: 1. Physical Control of Seed Loss 2. Physical and Mental Control of Sexual Orgasm 3. Mind Control of Sexual Desire and Orgasm 4. Exchange Energy Without Having Sexual Intercourse 5. Beyond Sex 6. Transforming Spiritual Energies Beyond the Mind/Body 7. Union of Man and Tao "I don't know what stage you will pursue. I only offer some guidelines. Some men may not be ready for many more lifetimes to change stages. After you read this book you may abandon the Seminal Kung Fu practice altogether and go on happily ejaculating like Niagra Falls. But if you want to get involved in cultivating your sexual energy you will spontaneously evolve and move toward higher spiritual levels. Your goal will be realized most quickly if you apply yourself with single-minded devotion to your spiritual evolution. Eventually it will become effortless as you stop struggling against your nature, which is the same in essence as the Tao. Your awareness of the universal subtle energies will grow naturally and you will move up in stages by yourself, not according to any religion or philosophy, but from an inner guidance." Once the level of spiritual evolution that comes from inner guidance has been mastered, every moment possesses both the seed for and the flower of self realization. In this way, both the "simple" and the "complex" are joined in one's practice of spiritual evolution and self realization. And the distinction between them dissolves. As does that of one's spiritual evolution and their self realization. This is Chia's #7, Union of Man and Tao. Chia concludes his comments on this subject (pg. 179) with a reminder of the paradox of progress toward the Tao. "The great Chinese physician Sun S'su-mo, (581-682 A.D.) famous for inventing the small pox inoculation and who lived to be 101 years, astutely noted the problem of progress in his Recipe for Making Priceless Gold: "In youth, man does not understand the Tao. At middle age he hears about the Tao but does not practice what he hears. When he is old he sees the truth of the Tao, but is too weak to act on it."" Waste not time nor health bums! Practice as if all were coming, because all is coming. And contemplate the dew drops on the daisies. And smile as their meanings evolve as you do ! Love. xeno

No and yes. No in that I had to experience a "conditioning" period, which may be considered a "priming of the pump" period prior to achieving the ability to achieve CCO. I regret to report that for me that period was 10 years. And it appears to me that less is not realistic to consider. In any case, that constitutes the "no"part of the answer. The "yes" part is comprised of this: post priming period, upon bringing chi to the crown, there is initially a warming that is pleasant but not strikingly so. With continued chi delivery to the crown and the deliberate effort to contain it at the crown, a spontaneous thing happens: the initial sensation is that of a cerebral warming, which upon ititiation of the CCO transforms into a sensation of a cascade of viscous fluid dripping down the inside of the skull. Contemporaneous with this is the sensation of a strong very pleasant odor...the sensations of a viscous fluid cascading down the inside of the skull and the fragrant taste/smell are in combination, the golden nectar...for me it always smells/tastes like what magnolia blossoms smell like. Subsequent to this, my awareness doesn't include my body. Having noted this in my initial CCO, I've repeatedly tried to sense my body during subsequent CCOs. I can't do it. I'm convinced that the reason for this is that the brain stimulation is so great that even though I'm tugging on my penis in order to send pulses of chi to my crown in order to witness the churning of my dynamo an it's relationship to the energy field within which it exists, I'm not even aware of my penis, let alone the rest of my body. Very curious that. This is among the reasons why my current working hypothesis on the mechanics of CCOs includes short-circuiting of the sympathetic nervous system to that of the vagus nerve (a system as well really as it "meanders" and branches to and through many parts of the body). Suffice it to say, the awarenesses of a CCO (neuro-electric change) is so profound that one's (presuming mine is equivalent to one's) mental abilities in the physical realm are as far as I can tell effectively null. There is a sympathetic increase in one's mental abilities in the spirtitual realm. The principal mechanism by which this appears to take place is by means of what I can best describe as wholesale ego stripping. The loss of awareness of one's body does significant work towards stripping one of one's sense of ego, but more significant still is the intensely humbling sensation conveyed by the awareness of one's energy "package" (i.e. one's dynamo) in the infinite energy field within which it (one, you, me) exists. It is this understanding that is simultaneously, in order of sensation, incredibly humbling, beautiful and satisfying. Ego reduction is accomplished in a very efficient manner while these sensations are occuring. I must prepare myself for experiences of CCOs. To face such experiences contains (equally) great potential for self damage as it does for self evolution. One must be very well aquainted with one's self in order to engage one's self in the naked format that the CCO experience imposes. This reality is, IMO, a built in safeguard of the apparently requisite period of conditioning, which, more succinctly can be thought of as a period of supplication of the ego. The eventuality of freeing one's self by means of releasing the vestiges of one's ego presupposes that one is prepared to view the infinite energy field that is Tao and have the strength of self to engage with the incredible power and humbling (ego stripping) nature of it. This (IMO) is why one must engage in the ego reduction and concommitent self realization that the long years of SKF training produces prior to the experience of CCO. It's a precursor of things to come. Love. xeno

So much to say. For now, I'll limit my comments to the following: Just so we're all clear, I don't claim to be enlightened. Indeed I'm quite sure that I'm not. Furthermore, I know that I don't know what enlightenment is. But I know that the ability to pursue spritual evolution is greatly facilitated within the experience of CCO. And I know how to open that door. Sharing information about that door and what exists beyond it may be part of my path towards furthering that evolution. And may facilitate it for others as well. Which I see as an act of Love. Something which is very important in that pursuit....indeed, most important among the things that have been made clear to me in my CCO experiences is that Love is the key to spiritual evolution (or if one prefers, 'enlightenment'). I understand that one need not experience a CCO to know this, nor to therefore understand the key to spritual evolution, but I KNOW that the information contained within the CCO experience is incredibly helpful toward that understanding. I considered carefully before using the word 'enlightenment' because I know it's a very charged word, and to do so is to, among other things, invite attack from others. I'm sorry that I did. I should have been more clear in my meaning, as hopefully I've now been. What I meant to convey by the sentence in which I used it was the reality, as I've experienced it, that to access this door to heightened ability for spiritual evolution that is a CCO, takes a long time. I've spent much of my words on this Forum seeking information to the contrary. None has been provided. Based on what I understand so far, IMO, the most significant dis-service to his readers of Chia's was indicating that distillation of jing to chi and the movement of that chi to the Ming-Men point (the door of Life beyond the sacral pump) can be achieved in the course of "several weeks". I'd like very few things more than to talk with someone for whom this was true. Not even close so far. CCOs are not subjective experiences, they're universal experiences...literally, 'experiences of the universal'. I don't think that there are words adequate to describe what CCOs are in more explicit terms. But if pressed, I'd describe them as the experience of being given the eyes to see one's own energy dynamo and it's place within the infinite energy field within which it exists. I'll spare you all descriptions of the experiences of ancillary significance such as loss of body and associated things in order to inform you of the most important aspect, and here is where the real value (IMO) of CCOs lies, a capacity to understand the nature and significance of Love as THE energy source that energizes one's dynamo and facilitates any spiritual evolutionary actions within the universal energy field that we may attempt. Simply put, more Love more facilitates spiritual evolution. We're Love machines my friends. It is true that there are many paths to the Tao. Life is short, decisions are few. Lose ego, find self. Love is the key. But above all, understand and be at peace with all that your cultivation practice means for your self. I'll save further comments for some other time and will simply wish all bums a very merry christmas. Love. xeno

By mine as well (distillation of Jing to Chi being the hard part!). What I want to know is how do those that do this ("this" being (Jing to Chi) energy conversion and subsequent circulation, IOW, MCO activation) not experience CCOs when they do it. Based on my experience and the information provided in this thread, the latter of which uniformly indicates an absence of experience of CCO, and therefore, based on my understanding of the operant mechanics of MCO activation, an absence of experience of COMPLETE (where complete means ability to convert jing to chi and deliver it to the crown) MCO activation. I can only conclude that those that think they've achieved MCO activation, in fact, have not. I'd like this understanding to be wrong, but that'll take different information than has been provided here so far. I hope that didn't come across as "heavy". I'm simply inquisitive. I do Love you all. And am trying to help you (with respect to what the realities of MCO activation and CCO cultivation are in this case). I hope you'll treat me similarly. Thank you Spectrum and Grand Trinity for your contributions. To summarize my current hypothesis, I think most people And then they don't make it. Because it takes YEARS OF COMMITMENT, based on my experience. Which, based on my experience and the information that I've gathered here (and elsewhere), most people, including, based on the information provided, those who've responded in this thread, don't have. Sorry. Again, I'd Love to be wrong. Please...pretty please, give me reason to think otherwise. p.s. Word up friends...no CD is going to open your MCO. This is another case of my suspension of belief (i.e. sig advice) not being sufficient to incorporate the concept of an "easy button" Tao. Yes, meditative and other "light" practices are easy and thier benefits are real, but transcendental (dare I say "heavy") practice takes commitment and time as far as I can tell. One doesn't accidentally find enlightenment. Like I said, please give me reason to think otherwise. When it proves to have been worthwhile, suspending my belief is my absolute favorite activity...I'm doing it now in anticipation of the further insightful comments of my fellow bums... Offered with Love. xeno