konchog uma

the buddhist propensity for nitpicking and starting arguments is well known... if i look back at all the arguments i have seen on this forum, i think most of them involved buddhism... 2nd most is religion in general (vs taoism). after than, nobody really seems to get up in a knot about much except general incompetency or thread derailment. well since mak sin ti left and the kunlun lizard people stopped popping up in discussion anyway lol as a buddhist who sees the value of organized religion, i am not proclaiming innocence, but its interesting to see the general level of accord and harmony that daoists share. i appreciate it all the time, and i talk pretty freely here, as compared to my 0 posts on dharmawheel and esangha combined. i have learned more about buddhism there of course, but thats not what we're talking about. recently i posted on vajracakra, and got some helpful feedback on pursuing the dzogchen path... but mostly i stay away from all the verbosity, infighting, and know-it-all-ism that buddhists seem to swim in. i think its because there are so many schools of buddhism with differing methods and views, while most daoism isnt lineage based, so there is just lao and chuang and the others who all teach general harmony and virtue. hmmm im still a buddhist because it makes total sense to me as a path to freedom, while daoism is more for my energetic and sexual practices, and a nice augmentation to my buddhist path... but anyway i really appreciate this forum too, i have met some great people here, and really appreciate a chance to talk about things where there is at least a general attitude of tolerance and harmony.

agreed

because its not what i meant. i wasnt talking about madhyamaka when i said it.. i was talking about buddhists like zen and others who say "life is nonexistant" and stop there. if the process stops there, its still a form of extremism and nihilism. thats what i was trying to clarify. yes, i am all for stopping ones logical process. by all means. but in that instance, those words didnt fit what i meant to say. speaking of zen, i think koans are more efficient ways of stopping the logical process vis a vis madhyamaka... just based on the number of words used to finally get beyond words not really making a point.. just saying... the point of no point

@SJ, thanks, yes. Non-conceptual realization is the only thing worth pursuing from my point of view. I find it ironic that it takes nagarjuna a sprawling epic of a text thats too long for most non-monastics to read at all, or that Center of the Sunlit Sky is 1000 pages long.. but the point of all of it is nonconceptual. Not knocking it, just finding irony. @alwayson, i shouldn't have used "logical process" as you are correct and it doesnt encapsulate what i meant. But as you know, saying "this doesnt exist" and leaving it at that is extremism and nihilism, neither of which are madhyamaka points of view. So its not a complete consideration because it is conceptual. One can have the same attachment to nonexistence that most people have to existence, and like you say, freedom from both is the point. So yes, it can't be logically conceived, but i shouldnt have said that that end of process stems from negation alone... i realize it doesn't.

thanks for the reminder SJ. i appreciate it, and agree. Further, the words and logic that madhyamakas use to define "existant" "nonexistant" and all the other designations inherent in that logic are all imputed terms. At the ultimate level, once a person breaks through the shell of delusion and sees that reality is not unlike a dream, everything you could say or think is imputation. So all that buddhist logic is nice and helpful to many, but to some, it is like pages and pages of fingers pointing, but no moon. The moon only appears when one can put all the discursive activity down... in other words i have never heard of anyone thinking themselves to liberation. Its not something you can share directly through books. And while i agree that science is inherently materialist, i would say that there is nothing wrong with understanding the material world and how it works. Its just not the end-all-be-all... not the full equation.. as fringe science happily acknowledges. Quantum physics confirms the observations of the buddhas, and if it didn't i would have as hard a time "being buddhist" as i would with being a fundamentalist christian who thinks that dinosaur fossils are tests of faith and that the world is 5000 years old, was created in 7 days, etc. I can't do that tho, i can't be that. You can take this or leave it, but my root lama has taught me that there is a reality, and that we need to pay attention to it, to connect with it, to understand it as best we can. It might be a fleeting mirage, but dismissing it without recognizing it at our true self, the sacred vajra mandala, and treating is as such (somewhat sacred) is a cop-out. He's a prasangika, and dismisses view that stops at svatantrika emptiness, but i see the sense in what he is trying to impart, and i have been influenced by him to respect, revere, and observe reality as a student, not to dismiss it outright as unreal and thereby unimportant. lastly, i don't take you as saying that reality is unimportant, that is not in direct response to you. Its just a commonly held "buddhist" viewpoint that reality is unreal, illusory, and thats the end of the logical process. According to madhyamaka, that is an extreme point of view, and no different than saying reality is real. So the truth of the vajra world is neither of those extremes, and shouldn't be seen as important or unimportant, sacred or profane... that is what madhyamaka teaches, a way beyond words and concepts, but it doesn't mean that gravity isn't relevant, or that you should step out in front of a bus because the bus lacks inherent existence. Those sorts of things are for the fully realized, or at least who have awakened the power of flying about or teleportation... until i get there, i feel like understanding the laws of the world has relevance.

"The longest road you'll ever have to walk is between your mind and your heart" -indigenous (American) saying http://www.scu.edu/ethics/architects-of-peace/Lane/essay.html this link doesn't have anything directly to do with this thread, but since i started it i can derail it muahaha its just an inspirational read focused on Phil Lane Jr.'s accounts of things elders have told him i've always found the indigenous traditions of the world to place an unfathomably greater emphasis on respectful and appropriate (for all intents and purposes "right") speech than modern cultures.. its amazing to contemplate. I am often times told what a "nice" or "good" person i am, but in the face of the average indigenous of almost any tribe in the world, i would be an entitled, temperamental, mouthy dickasaurus. Almost every time i come into contact with native americans or indigenous people of any part of the earth i am humbled in a beautiful way, not a humiliating way, but a gentle reminder that a person's virtue can go bone deep and emanate from the natural state of their being.. that speech intentions actions etc can be respectful to all without measure or judgement... that we are all related, that thats not some philosophical talking point or a "view" but a truth that forms the foundation of every action. oh well i don't mean to bore anyone waxing native.. just pointing out something that has both affected me profoundly, and been completely forgotten at times. Maybe im writing to myself... lol dear sir, wake up, your friend, self.

seems like a cop-out. but its true, madhyamaka doesn't offer a position. i guess that also means it can't be right. since nothing exists to them i suppose madhyamakas dont care. i respect that the truth can't be conceptualized, but it seems that in empty space, things spontaneously arise. One could refute the inherent existance of those things (but they would still be there), or refute that things arise (but again..) i asked a physicist friend of mine and he pointed out the law of conservation of energy, which does accord with the view. He said that theoretically that energy comes from particles that spontaneously disappear elsewhere, because that happens, but nobody is sure where the energy goes (in keeping with the LOCOE). So that makes sense logically. sorry to derail your thread with physics. If someone is unwilling to accept the existance of things in the first place, im not sure how important the laws which govern those things are... lol j/k physics basically confirms madhyamaka i just wondered about that one point

so i should assume youre going to ignore the question in favor of making one line quips?

nice to read more than one-line quips btw

reading COTSS at present.. & i agree with madhyamaka so dont take me as trying to refute nagarjuna or anything like that but as the dalai lama says, if science provides information that contradicts buddhism, buddhism should change. and i am just wondering what you think about vacuum fluctuation (which is when particles spring into existence in a vacuum)? (i know "nothing arises". but that seems like a cop-out to use that line and go no further. if you can prove scientifically that nothing arises i would be interested in hearing it. til then..)

common problem with the book. A qigong teacher and lineage student of DrYJM told me that it was next to impossible to learn from that book. sorry to say, but he said that to learn from a qualified teacher was best by far. but you're not missing anything, the book just doesn't really give instructions on the practice. Its more like a collection of texts than a practice manual.

yes good discussions.. good luck with finding a teacher. you can always send me questions about kuji-in. no guarantee i will have an answer, but i'll address it in the most helpful way i can

The right speech that i am talking about here is more literal and person to person, not within the stories or teaching tools which use metaphor, but in the way we set the example for each other of how to talk to one another on this forum. thanks tho, i didnt know that ... funny

the buddha rebuked his monks in the sutras.. he called them fools when they were fools. You could call that an insult, but then again, it was always followed by kindly advice on how to remedy ones folly. So i agree basically, whether you look to Tibet for cues or to the pali sutras, it seems the same

you might like this book malikshreds: Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm he talks about cessation of pulse and respiration

i think that is pretty right on apech there is a goal which is beyond the hinayana goal of non-returning, beyond samsara, and beyond nirvana, but i don't think that buddha called it sunyata. I think he said it could only be realized, not expressed verbally, dualism in language being what it is and all. I am not sure he named it. I think nirvana can be expressed as "no-self" as it literally translates to extinguished (like a candle flame) and sunyata can be translated as emptiness. What the buddha was really pointing at is, in his own words, beyond concepts, hence the finger and the moon analogy. So there's no word in english sanskrit pali hindi tibetan that really can convey the primordial nondual state but yes it is talked about in all those languages again i could be wrong im just a student.. i dont think you can name that state although i think dzogchen (great perfection, great completeness) is an attempt to in tibetan.. still a finger really, just pointing

Its a vow to work for the benefit of beings. It is also a vow to return if liberated, in the sense that when one is liberated, not returning is an option. the quote from shantideva is considered a suitable way to take the vow, its what i say in my morning prayers for example, but there is more to the vow than encapsulated in those words. to clarify, its not posponing nirvana, a bodhisattva can live in the state of nirvana, its that when they die they will be reborn until all beings are liberated. There are infinite beings in infinite worlds so its still problematic, but its not nirvana that a bodhisattva forgoes, its their own dissolution into the nothingness ne'er to return, that is renounced. all this according to my own understanding which is limited

what kind of meditation are you reading about? shamatha/vipashyana is buddhist meditation where shamatha watches the breath until the mind is calmed and then various vipashyana techniques (some of them just different focuses on the breath) are used to gain different kinds of insight but i am not sure thats what youre asking about.

im with turtle shell, more attention when i haven't come for a week or more.

why do you say chronic fatigue is a bullshit condition?

yeah good luck letting go of those.. "holdings" i like that, good way to say it. i found that it lead me to very similar findings, realizing my own holdings has been part of my process today was a mess, only sat 20 minutes this morning, skipped out on sitting at the sangha tonight, busy day. Ah well. Tomorrow...

because its a meditation that deals with non-contrivance of the breath. As stated in the title.

The Sun Of Wisdom: Teachings on the Noble Nagarjuna's Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso haven't cracked it yet, just checked it out of a library yesterday The Way of the Bodhisattva (bodhicharyavatara) by Shantideva transl. by Padmakara Translation Group been reading this for a while.. a beautiful poem about the activities of a person on the bodhisattva's path. Not my favorite translation of it but i was just struck by this and wanted to quote: "likewise since it is a group of fingers a hand itself is not a single entity and so it is with fingers, made of joints and joints themselves consist of many parts these parts themselves will break down into atoms and atoms will divide according to direction these fragments too will also fall to nothing thus atoms are like empty space - they have no real existance all form therefore is like a dream and who will be attached to it, who thus investigates? the body, in this way, has no existence what is male, therefore, and what is female" i am always struck by how close the observations of the buddha and meditative mystics of that order are to the declarations of modern particle and quantum physics. Clarifying the Natural State: A Principle Guidance Manual for the Practice of Mahamudra by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal transl. by Erik Pema Kunsang (I guess its out of print now because i got my copy before they were $250.. yikes! only getting around to reading it now tho) dakpo tashi namgyal wrote the definitive book on mahamudra, called "Mahamudra: The Moonlight", an epic tome about how to sit and do nothing lol. This is a manual for practice geared less towards the philosophy and view of mahamudra and more towards how to actually sit and realize the natural state.

right

its not a qigong practice. the purpose of the practice is to do exactly what i described.