konchog uma

"Clear light is defined in most texts as the unity of emptiness and clarity. It is the pure, empty awareness that is the base of the individual. "Clear" refers to emptiness, the mother, the base, kunzhi. "Light" refers to clarity, the son, rigpa, pure innate awareness. Clear light is direct realization of the unity of rigpa and the base, of awareness and emptiness."

"We lose the real sense of the clear light as soon as we conceptualize it or try to imagine it. there is neither subject nor object in the clear light. If there is any identification with a subject, then there is no entry into the clear light. Actually, nothing "enters" the clear light: the clear light is the base recognizing itself. There is neither "you" nor "it". Using dualizstic language to describe the non-dual necessarily results in paradox. The only way to know the clear light is to know it directly."

-Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

i haven't gotten to watch those talks, and won't have time for a little while, but i am wondering, who banned them exactly? were they banned in Argentina, or by TED, or by some parents group? can someone clarify?

Peyote is very powerful. Taking it showed me different realms, stopped me drinking alchohol and showed me many ways to live. I am greatful to it.

me too.

its also the reason i don't do drugs or drink.

lol

Thanks for your addition. Only one comment - rather than a "lama mak[ing] an incalculable difference," could you not simply say... it is "one who has the indefatigable qualities of a lama (or realized one)" that can "make the difference."

 

Your thoughts?

rv, im not sure what youre getting at. Its less simple to say it that way, in word count anyway. It seems semantic, except that in rare cases, there are those people who have devoted themselves to study and practice and logged the retreat time that lamas typically have etc. In that case (which i am not personally familiar with) i guess it would depend on if they had achieved a state of mind which allowed them to introduce students directly to the natural state.

I have been given empowerments, guidance, transmissions etc by westerners which were effective. Surprising even. But nothing like the experiences i have had with my lama... he is electric... so i am only speaking from my own point of view here. I haven't had any experience with people who have the indefatigable qualities of a lama who weren't actually lamas

not sure that answers your question but there is a lineage energy beyond someone's personal energy that a lineage holder taps into adn carries at all times. Being a lama might be qualitatively different than just having meditated and studied a lot, but im not %100 sure

without looking at the issue in terms of superior and inferior, its true that the Tibetan tradition of lamaism is based on the lama's ability to give empowerments, guidance, and to transmit the experience of the natural state. So its not without basis.

Its also true that its entrenched in dogma and antiquity and, from a certain point of view (which i believe is where you are coming from ralis) could use an overhaul in order to make it more accessible to those who do not have the need for the trappings of a guru (putting the lama before all others, making prostrations to the lama, and other trappings of lamaism that strike westerners as strange)... and i think its good that the dharma spreads in the west moreso than that bunch of Tibetan men get to maintain their time-honored traditions and religious fetishes.

But i think that the lineage of ridgens or vidyadharas who can awaken others is valid, and not because it reflects a need for divine intercession, but of human intercession. Its a practical thing, not something you need faith to practice or belief in what can't be proven. The benefit of a qualified teacher is tangible, quantifiable. A person may be able to achieve realization without one if their karmic conditions are right, but a lama makes an incaculable difference.

rising with my breath

the hillock of my belly

undulates gently

mathematics can express the sacred, and buildings are built based on mathematical proportions.

it is quite possible that a structure can evoke the sacred, and this is why most temples are built with sacred geometry as their basis.

thank you for the interesting video cat.. i liked the guy that came on in the last 5 minutes best

i can only speak for myself, i go to temples because the experience i have there is qualitatively different than meditating alone at home. Places of religion absorb a certain atmosphere of calm and tranquility which seems to seep into the walls and radiate outward to those in the rooms. I like the art and colorful thangka paintings, the smell of incense, and it reminds me of the community of practitioners whom i appreciate, even when i am there alone.

I don't really go to church or synagogue, but i imagine that those are places where people find some kind of inner peace or at least quietude, which might be all they get as far as spiritual experience goes. Worshiping christ on the cross isn't my thing, nor am i jewish or muslim, but as so many people have pointing out before, it helps many people to connect with virtue in that way.

religions are a two sided issue, there is great good in their ability to lead people towards virtue and fellowship in the spirit, and there is great harm in their polarization of people into aggressive zealots. So there is more to the picture than any one sided portrait of it, like the one found in the OP, could paint. Religions are powerful, and that deserves to be looked at, even if it is decided that their power lies entirely in the ignorance of humanity, we certainly could learn a lot about ignorance by examining religion. Writing it off as folly can be a cop-out, the end of a dialogue where one should just be beginning, as Alain de Botton illustrated in his talk.

the harm of religion comes from thinking things are a certain way and never looking beyond that with the open eyes of a beginner to see if you are right or wrong, or what other possibilities can exist. And the harm of views like that expressed in the OP is the exact same.. so whether one takes the view of religion or anti-religion, their minds are probably encased is dualistic vision and are unable to encompass the naked truth that everything exists because it has its purpose and lesson. Instead of blind rejection, one could adopt an inquisitive attitude and wonder why humanity has always created religions? what is it that is "there" that causes people to come together in this way? i think its very fascinating

first cousins are directly related so technically its incest

but its legal in the US to marry, and in many other countries

i think complications can arise if it goes on for too many generations tho.. i've heard of kids in the hills of a state that i will not name who have very light skin and a tendancy towards birth defects

its actually only a recent development in history that cousin incest is considered taboo.. it was long accepted as i understand it, but i can't put a date on that.. you'll have to do your own research if it interests you

Hi Jax,

thank you for the explanations. When i experienced direct introduction it was as you describe, a collapse of the waveform of my consciousness and an expanse into space or spaceousness. It was immediate and transformative.

I am not negating anything anyone else says, only sharing my experience to confirm that in my case, it happened that way. i believe that for some it is gradual, and for some it is direct, so I am not saying my way is the best way or the right way or any nonsense talk like that.

A question: how does rigpa relate to clear light in your understanding?

I don't think divine message works like that.

 

If a "divine" message could be butched and mutilated to be ineffective, it's not a divine message to start with.

 

You seem to be a guru follower. Nothing wrong with that.

 

In my personal experience, the "transmission" can come from unelightened person, even someone who's not in the sipiritual path. They are just medium of the divine message.

 

Think about it, if God/Tao wants you to know or experience something, who could stop it?

i was into mark griffin for a while but stepped away from all that.. i don't think of my root lama as a guru but i guess you could. Anyway, no nothing wrong with all that, but i think people do it because they tend to experience transmission more often from a guru than from an ordinary joe on the street.

i dont think there are any rules tho, and while i tend to look at it from the point of view of karma, instead of god/dao, if a person is meant to awaken, or have a particular experience, i agree there is little to do to stop that from happening

Understood....overboard....Please forgive me

 

Stefos

no problem.

right

sorry ralis, i meant that bit about rainbow body and non-mutual exclusivity towards teknix

and i meant the bit about the conjecture towards you

i was posting in a hurry sorry for the confusion

to address what you just said, i don't think that thoughts or logic or science is mutually exclusive to the natural state. As i have learned (and occaisionally experienced), one can rest in rigpa and think too. Its just that the thoughts self-liberate in the same instant they arise.. and yes i know that in an ultimate sense they neither arise or liberate, but i am speaking from the conventional level.

So there is experience, even thought, but there is no grasping, no clinging.

science and dzogchen aren't mutually exclusive.

speculation about what might happen to a scientist is pure conjecture though.

you should research the phenomenon of rainbow body.. a lot of people have died and left nothing but hair and finger/toenails... its been documented. that might even qualify as supernatural lol

Hi Konchog

If Malcom said " i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light, " then he is wrong.

Not only does clear light manifest into all things, the dharmakaya and the sambhogakaya are inseperable..

 

Maybe Malcom is a scholar and a tibetan doctor, but perhaps he isn't a guru or a practitioner..

 

Where exactly did he say that?

 

And then answer this question.. why do you think that Guru Yoga starts with the practice of visualizing the Guru in perfect detail, then visualizing the red/white/blue light emanating from the Guru to you, and then dissolving the Guru into you?

 

Why do you think that Max's Kunlun level 1 says to visualize yourself floating in a blue empty sky and then visualize, as you breathe in... and "make it real"?

 

The reason is because everything emanates from the clear light. The clear light, when split into yellow, is the manifestation of solidity. Into red light, is the manifestion of fire.. Blue light, space.. etc.. the five lights.

 

The reason for the visualizations is to start training in manifesting and dissolving the five lights. How else could you walk through solids, fly in the air, heat up the body etc? It is by realizing that we are creating the material plane through the mind, by manifesting the five lights/elements and by learning to play with them.

 

 

 

 

 

TI

"'od gsal, or luminosity, is experienced by everyone as they go to sleep. It has nothing to do with visions of light."

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=278&p=1692&hilit=clear+light+visions+of+light#p1692

i dont know why that style of guru yoga uses red white and blue lights. that is what i am trying to convey here: i dont know enough to get into a conversation about clear light, and if i did, i probably wouldn't anyway. just sayin

Excuse me sir. I didn't mean to come across as being patronizing!

I understand that you are adults.

 

Your response to me however isn't good and is very telling.

You immediately judged my phrase without even asking about my intent! Does that make sense to you?

At that, you don't even know me!

 

If you're a Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Atheist, you should know better!

Show some humility.

 

Stefos

now youre being patronizing

hi TI,

remember that its okay to have a different impression of a book than someone else. I am glad to hear that you like it so much.

i have read about clear light in a bunch of places.. the union of luminosity and emptiness, the subtle manifestation underlying all reality, and so on and so forth

what i don't have is direct experience of clear light, unimpeded by other aspects of reality. Maybe in the bardo, but i didn't recognize it as such at that time. i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light,

At any rate, i didn't say it was a bad book. I said i liked the introduction better than the translation and commentary. Thats just me expressing how it struck me.. as in, good thing we aren't all the same! lol i never said that the book wasn't good.

anyway, i don't have a lot to add, although i have been practicing the beginning stages of sleep and dream yoga, with small but good results, but dont want to talk about that much.. inner yogas and dzogchen are traditionally private, so even when i do achieve results, i think that they are just for me. I prefer to keep my practice sealed in the traditional way. Even when i talk privately with people about my experiences i feel really weird about it afterwards. I think its best for me just to talk to my lama and other meditation teachers about things like that. But i digress

If i achieve insight into clear light in a general way, i will be happy to share for the benefit of others. Til then, the words are just words to me (alas! lol)...

Hi Stefos

Well hopefully this isn't an argument..

 

Konchog believes that you can't "illuminate the truth in words, writing.." Perhaps scholars or pandits can't..

 

I say you can.

 

If an enlightened being writes words down, there is a characteristic vibratory signature that can be dectected. But you have to be resonating at the same level or at least a high enough level in order to detect it. Have you ever heard the expression, it takes someone with heart to recognize someone else with heart?

yeah but its not the words themselves that illuminate the truth. its the vibration of the consciousness, and it requires readiness, or sensitivity, as noted.

Tilopa hit Naropa in the face with his shoe and Naropa experienced the natural state as a result. Tilopa did this because all the words in the world were obscuring the truth from Naropa, who was a scholar. See what i mean?

So in other words, the teachings of an enlightened master are just a medium for the transmission.. they are not the important thing itself, from a certain point of view. An enlightened teacher could babble nonsense at me and if i was prepared, i could bask in that wakefulness and possibly experience an opening of consciousness. A teacher could spit in my eye or hit me in the face and it might be more useful than all the words they could blather about enlightenment.

Which is why i said "finger, moon..."

so you are only half disagreeing with me, because what you supply to support your point of view is the same thing i could supply to support my own.

I don't want to speak too much from personal experience, because thats very private and i dont have very much of it, but i think its relevant and useful to say that I have had greater experience of the natural state with my root lama that were born of silence than i ever experienced trying to understand the words he was saying at me.

embrace your rights americans!!!!! wow after three years mulling about this thread is an overnite sensation....

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-defends-liberties-says-americans-stupid-141450112.html

 

we still have to wait til next season to know if viscious trolling ponies find enlightenment?

thanks for sharing! funny stuff

@Tibetan Ice & Konchog uma,

 

Look folks...please don't bring this discussion to the level of arguement.

TI and i are both grown ups. Thank you for your concern, but its okay to disagree. Nobody was calling names or throwing a tantrum, and I don't think we need your moderation.

what about the CRITICAL ISSUE of VICIOUS PONIES

we really need to get into a huge fight about that everyone

lets go

merriment a-plenty!

didn't he get banned like twice?

here we go again