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Everything posted by penfold
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Okay, first off I will lay out one broad assumption: that the inner chapters of the Chuang-tzu are, by and large, representative of a single author - whom I am happy to call 'Chuang-tzu'. I think we have pretty good reasons to assume this but I won't detail why for the sake of space. For ease I will refer to the text of inner chapters of the Chuang-tzu by using the italicized form Chuang-tzu. It seems to me that there is something idiosyncratic about this author, he has concerns and themes that we don't find elsewhere in Chinese thought of the Warring States period and certainly not in the Lao-tzu. These themes are almost too varied to draw up a complete list but here are five of the dominant ideas which are characteristic of the Chuang-tzu. I will re-iterate this again at the end but none of these themes are found anywhere in the Lao-tzu: 1 Focus on yu 遊 - wandering/roaming: This character appears in the Chaung-tzu almost as frequently as the character Tao (at least 30 times by my count). There are a couple - but only a couple - of instances when it is used in the 'normal' sense of to wander about physically. However the vast majority of uses have broader importance. In particularly the theme of 'wandering beyond/outside of' normal ways of thinking, here are two examples: ...he rides the vapour of the clouds, yokes flying dragons to his chariot, and raoms beyond the four seas... - Ch 1 (this phrase 'roaming beyond the four seas' is repeated in Ch 2.) "They are the sort that roam beyond the guidelines," said Confucius, "I am the sort that roams within the guidelines." - Ch 6 By my count there are as many as 10 uses of 'roams beyond/outside of'. The use of roaming is also, on at least three occasions, explicitly linked to the process of thinking - using the 'heart' (hsin 心). eg "...let the heart roam with other things..." - Ch 4. It is also linked to the activity of sages: "where-ever the sage roams..." - Ch 5; [Hsu Yu said] "how are you going to roam that free and easy take-any-turn-you -please path?" - Ch 6 ;"Become wholly identified with the limitless and roam where there is no foreboding of anything" - Ch 7. 2 Use of specific examples from nature: The Chuang-tzu makes repeated use of natural examples to back up his points everything. From "fish forgetting each other in the lakes" (a phrase actually repeated in the Old Tan / Confucius dialogues) to the extraordinary speech of Wang Ni in Ch2, the whole of the Chuang-tzu is replete with examples drawn from nature. There are so many examples of this that I will not waste time quoting them. However what is particularly noticeable is that on the two occasions in the Chuang-tzu we are given direct 'quotes' from the man himself he makes use of such natural examples: In conversation with Hui tzu he says "Haven't you ever seen a wild cat or weasel? It lurks crouching low ... But the Yak now, which is a big as a cloud hanging from the sky ..." - Ch 1. Similarly in many of the stories about the man Chuang-tzu from the outer + miscellaneous chapters we find this theme again and again - see, for example, the story of Chuang-tzu hunting Ch 20, his rejection of office Ch 32 (also quoted Ch 63 Shih-chi), his attempt to borrow grain from the Marquis of of Chien-ho Ch 26, his discussion on uselessness with disciples Ch 20 etc... It seems that those writing about the man Chuang-tzu remembered his use of examples drawn from nature almost more than any other aspect of his teaching (and it is notable that given the commonality of this motif in the above stories how divergent some of their philosophy is, take for example the Yangist overtones of the hunting passage vs the Synchretist flavour of his discussion with disciples.) 3 The use of uslessness: Of all of these main themes this is the one which seems wholly unique to the Chuang-tzu, as far as I am aware, no other Chinese thinker advocates for the useless as Chuang-tzu does. In fact in the Lao-tzu 'useful' is always used in a positive sense, (eg - "emptiness acquires use") exactly the opposite of the position we find in the Chuang-tzu! The most memorable and detailed of the 'use of the useless' narratives are found in the mid-section of Ch 4 (the 'useless' trees) and Ch 5 (the 'useless' cripples); however the theme crops up in other places as well - the discussions between Chuang-tzu and Hui-tzu in Ch 1; a fragment of a cripple story in Ch 3 (probably dislocated from the Ch 5 series); the closing lines of Ch 4: "All men know the uses of the useful but no one knows the uses of the useless." 4 Particular criticism of Confucius' historical strategy as flawed: This particular criticism of Confucius is not found in the Lao-tzu. However in the Chuang-tzu it is mentioned on a couple of occasions; most explicitly in the 'Madman' of Chu's speech to Confucius at the end of Ch 4: "Of the age to come we can't be sure // To the age gone by we can't go back" (interestingly in the same speech Confucius is accused of 'interfering with the madman's 'roaming': "Thistle, thistle, // Don't wound me as I walk. // My walk goes backward and goes crooked, // don't wound my feet.") We also find this theme implicit in Confucius' own realization that he cannot 'roam outside the rules' and his identification as a man 'manacled by heaven' by Old Tan both in Ch 6. 5 Subversion of Confucian characters into Taoist heros: As is often pointed out the Lao-tzu has a strange characteristic of not mentioning characters at all. In the Chuang-tzu we are met by a whole motley crowd. What is particularly interesting is that so many of them are taken from Confucian literature. For example the above mentioned 'madman of Chu' (Chieh Yu) appears three times in the Chuang-tzu and is taken from Ch 18 of the Analects. We also have Ch’u Po-yu the wise man of Wey, Yen Hui, Old Tan, and, of course Confucius himself, all originally Confucian characters and all, at various points of the Chuang-tzu, acting as Taoist spokespeople. ............................................................................................. There are two reasons I have selected these five themes from the Chuang-tzu: firstly they represent five majour themes by which I think we can identify the voice of the Chuang-tzu's author. Secondly they are all themes absent from the Lao-tzu. If we read the seven passages from Ch's 12, 13, 14 (x3) and 21 which detail the meeting of Old Tan and Confucius we find all of these themes articulated clearly in Old Tan's dialogue. I am willing to provide detailed examples but I'm sure you have a copy of the Chaung-tzu lying around and can look for yourself ; plus this post has gone on far too long and my wife is getting that look in her eye that tells me my time is almost up... On the other hand we get none of the language of the Lao-tzu (ie 'root', 'mother', 'unknowable', 'valley', 'emptiness', 'wu' (other than one single use of wu-wei) etc...). Thus it seems plausible that the author(s) of these fictional meetings of Old Tan and Confucius based the character of Old Tan on the philosophy found in the Chuang-tzu rather than the Lao-tzu. It seems to me that it is Chuang-tzu's voice we hear coming from Old Tan's lips.
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[...] I could not agree more that these text should be read with care. My point, having spent some time with these texts, is that in the Chuang-tzu's inner chapters we can find a unique and brilliant voice, which traditionally has been attributed to a man called Chuang Chou - in fact the historical identity of the author interests me little, it is content that counts. However, it seems to me that it is this voice we find in these accounts of meetings between Confucius and Old Tan rather than any of the voices we can hear in the Lao-tzu. As for whether Li Erh exists or was the author/compiler of the Lao-tzu I claim no special knowledge. What I would point out is that when Ssu-ma Chi'en wrote the Shih Chi in the first century BC (the erliest identification we have if Li Erh and his identification as Lao-tzu) the author also mentions that possibly he's wrong and the identity of Lao-tzu could be Lao Lia Tzu who came from a completely different time & part of China. Ssu ma Chi'en sums up "The world is unable to know where the truth lies." It seems, if you'll forgive me; a little bold for you to be claiming, a couple of millennia later, to know exactly that.
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Thanks.
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Dunno what a Doaist would do. But here's my thoughts. Companionship and love are two things that cleave close to who we are. If she makes you happy then take her back, weakness be damned. Life's too short to be worrying about perception. In the long run you might get hurt but that's part of the game, no relationship is free of that risk. Above all be honest with yourself, don't let your ego get in the way of happiness. Best of luck.
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Sometimes I get lost. Othertimes I find something significant. Most of the time it just help me keep my balance. But There was this one time. Sitting in a garden in Dorset (south coast UK). Cloudy day, not much in the way of sun. There was a moment, little more, where it all made sense. Contradictions resolved, ego gone. It was just the moment and nothing else. Damn I wish I could get there again.
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I'm fairly new to Daoist thinking. One idea that has interested me a lot of late is that of wu-wei. Really my question has to do with action. In Zhuangzi I've come across a similar notion of yin-shi ('reacting by flowing' - Gibson). These two notions seem pretty intertwined; for example in Sunzi's Art of War he uses wu-wei in a manner that seems to fit easier with ideas of flow and adaptation than those of naturalness or inner nature. However there does seem, to me at least, a tension here. Passages relating to wu wei in the Daodejing seem to associate it with ideas of simplicity and naturalness (concepts like Ziran & Pu), and ultimately, our inner natures. These seem to be static 'truths' - just as men of antiquity could tap into an inner nature (thus acheiving De) so can we; the implication being that our inner nature is still the same as men of antiquity. Yin-shi on the other hand emphasises dynamic response to situations: "I go down with the water and come up with the water." There is no appeal so something as static as inner nature. Rather the implication is that reality is always changing and we should be fluid in our reactions to this. So while wu-wei appeals to something static yin-shi appeals to the changing. So what is the Daoist ethic? Should the Daoist seek the quiet and unchanging, or should they merely adapt, Chameleon like, to the changing world around them? Or is this a false division?