Jeff

Hi 3bob, How can done be the "loss of particular and limited attachments"? Which attachments to mind do you keep? Why would one desire to keep some of them, but not others? Also, how does one know that they have not just released at a conscious level, but still still have deep subconscious fears and issues that they "thought" they had dropped? Best wishes, Jeff

How would you define that "stage"? Would you define it as "emptiness of self"? Emptiness of ultimate reality?

Yes, welcome to the party.

"...Whether one is Buddhist or Taoist, there is one question regarding meditation that should be asked: "Is there any method that neglects or abandons the physical body, the sensations, emotions, mental states or thoughts associated with it?" Another excellent quote. Thank you SJ. The body is a direct mapping to all that "is".

""The deluded man clings to the characteristics of things, adheres to the Samadhi of oneness, thinks that straightforward mind is sitting without moving and casting aside delusions without letting things arise in the mind. This he considers to be the samadhi of oneness. This kind of practice is the same as insentiency (i.e., being like rocks, trees, etc.) and the cause of an obstruction to the Tao." Paralleling what is imbedded within the above quote, the book TAOIST YOGA: Alchemy and Immortality (1970), translated by Lu K'Uan Yu, emphasizes if a person goes into the void but there is no spirit light energy created then this is a false void -- a false emptiness." Excellent quote. Thank you. I would somewhat disagree with CT. It is not possible to transcend body and mind without both sides of the (same) coin. (Edit - format)

Yes, a very good place. If one can survive the gauntlet and discuss something here, they can do it anywhere. Insight is one thing... Translating and sharing with other "mind streams" is quite another, don't you think? Best wishes.

True knowing happens when one "resides" in the light and one knows that there really are no others. When that is known and realized, one can directly be (or share presence) with any "other being". In Buddhist terms, it would be called the realization of emptiness as described in the Heart sutra, when one knows that Form=Void and also Void=Form. In some traditions, it is called residing in the "inner heart". And yes, it is very rare. Many rate and judge others with "colors", but that is more what people call the 3rd eye (and of the mind).

Light seen as halos around saints heads is the "translation" in mind of viewer of the natural radiance of of the saint. If someone views it as "raising kundalini", they have not yet realized the clear light (or the nature of universal mind). But, that which is often called kundalini definitely has an evolutionary effect on the human form.

Agreed. But, hopefully the words are useful for the mind as a pointer/description.

Worth repeating as an answer. I would only add that clarity can also been thought of as a deeper component of emptiness (rather than something to merge with). As it goes "deeper", it is sometimes called the emptiness of ultimate reality. Rainbowvein - it is not possible to "see" the light of which CT describes. It is more the clear light of the "framework" of mind and can only be known or felt. Any seeing is an arising of the mind itself and subject to the obscurations.

Thank you CT. He is the real deal.

Hi Adept, Ultimately the pathless path is the only path of the Tao. All paths are constructs of mind (or universal mind) and must be let go to realize the Tao. But, all that is experienced (and hence can be talked about) is of the mind, and the mind is always one with the Tao. What can be experienced in the Tao is like a great ocean. Some snorkel in the ocean, while some scuba dive. Great masters (Buddha/Christ), first learn to lay at the bottom of the ocean, look up and see the wonder of the ocean. Then they can become the ocean. If you don't mind, a question for you(and all)... Is the spiritual process like a baby chick breaking out of an egg?... Or, a flower sprouting in the sun, also needing rain and good soil? Best wishes to you also.

I have a friend who has fried three computers and the electrical systems of two cars. The issue happened because he had not learned to radiate the excess energy into the environment around him.

Everyone. Thanks for the (US morning) chat.

You are welcome. The kabbalistic stuff can be very complicated with their symbolism. If you want a good and more scientific overview, I would suggest the Lankavatara Sutra (Buddhist). It explains everything in more mind and perspective issues. All of the magic stuff just makes things more complicated.

Hi Edward, Yes, it is a natural progression of the Christian path (and all paths). But, like all big experiences or "states", it is easy to get stuck. The issue for many Christians is their concept of God. Listen to a pastor and it could become a Zeus like old white guy. Read (and know) the words of Jesus and one will realize that God is the same as Emptiness. Best regards, Jeff

Hi Edward, I would agree and believe it is a common problem/issue in all traditions. As one begins to realize "emptiness of the self" they experience the light of mind (or universal mind). In Christian terms, this is sort of touching the "soul". The experience of first connecting into this sort of universal human level can be so overwhelming that many think it is God. Often people get attached to the experience and declare "done". This same thing is happens and is called opening the 7th chakra in Yoga or realization of no self in Buddhism. While it is a very meaningful step, it is really more like a new beginning. Best wishes. (Edit - format issue)

Saw a post about anyone ever chatting and thought... Why not, work is slow this morning...

Hi SJ, I don't quite understand your point on commenting on my usage of "space" as an analogy. I was just responding to your use of it in your posted quote and the possible misunderstanding of the word "meditation". You said... "Malcolm: Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought. When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics. Thus, the Bodhittavivarana states: Abiding in the mind without objects has the characteristic of space; that meditation of space is held to be the meditation of emptiness." On a personal level, I think that the meditation of space is only marginally helpful in the realization of emptiness. As the Heart Sutra you recommended states. Emptiness is the realization of both... Form = Void and Void = Form. The meditation of space helps with the first half of Form = Void, but not in the deeper and harder aspect to realize that Void = Form. Also, the Lankavatara sutra also takes a pass on the second half while just calling it the emptiness of "ultimate reality". Truly fully realizing the second half is the effective difference of a Buddha. Best wishes, Jeff

Yes. I think that we can agree, that if someone is "meditating and has an experience", by definition, it could not be the realization of emptiness.

Had to go to the bathroom at some time... Thanks to those who stopped by to say hello. Everyone enjoy the moment/day.

I agree that commentary can be very helpful. As an example, I think many get confused in the meaning of above usage of "meditation". It could be misinterpreted to something like "the focusing on or contemplation of space" relates to the realization of emptiness. The true meaning of meditation seems to be lost.

Hi Yabyum, Thank you for your expansion on the point, it sounds like we are agreed. My concern is often that many just "touch" unfabricated presense and declare victory. Also, some may notice the intrinsic clarity of mind and believe they are "done". Residing is different than "noticing". Best wishes, Jeff

I agree that it would be nice if there was more on the Lankavatara Sutra. It is a beautiful and consise overview. I wish I would have found the text much earlier.

Hi SJ, My point was different in my question for yabyum. It was regarding the nature of realization (or level of realization) in his "didn't get the whole way" comment. As described in the Lankavatara Sutra (which I believe is pretty much accepted by Zen practitioners)... The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death. Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis. But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. Regards, Jeff