Jeff

Hi Chegg, Thanks for the discussion. A few points with a difference of perspective... A realized divine being can choose to manifest in human form. This happens in the Christ tradition (similar to like with the Buddhist vow) with the perspective that it possible to "help" the development of beings/souls. All physical form is subject to both bombardment of issues, but also fundamental developmental attachments (karma) that must be seen through. So essentially, Jesus had to re-see through it all. Regarding what Jesus "did" (or the new covenant), I have described my perspective in some of the other Christian threads. But, similar to what you said, he created (became) sort of a human network/bridge for those with faith/knowledge. True communion is a transmission/connection. Interesting thoughts on Sophia. My perspective is different. One must remember that Sophia is from the "everlasting" stuff and before creation. Also, the Holy Spirit is in creation. I would agree that intent (or will) is the driver, but in discussing heading to sun (or any location), it would seem necessary to discuss the nature of physical reality. What is the sun that one's spirit/soul could go to it? Also, I have definitely experienced Christ's light and know what you mean, but i would argue that "brightness" is a perception of mind. Finally, I would say that there are many valid traditions and lots of beings helping out. Best wishes, Jeff

Thanks for the link. Are you a member of the Cyprus based group? Worked with their meditation and practices? Best, Jeff

Hi Chegg, Some comments on my perspective below... So essentially you are saying that we are all manifestations of Christ, but that Jesus was sort of a previously realized being that took human/manifest form to teach us to also be children of God (or that we are all Christ like). Similar to what is described in John... John 1:9-14 (KJV) 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Pistis Sophia is very interesting, but I think it is beyond the current scope of our discussion. Regarding "Sophia" and how it may fit into your perspective, I would lead you to Proverbs 8. Sophia describes itself below... 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. 22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Notice that Sophia (or the noble wisdoms) have existed before the world and made of the "everlasting". On the Holy Spirit, I would agree that it relates to the manifestation of life, but I would say that the Holy Spirit is much more and would somewhat cut into your Logos definition. I offer these words from the bible on the Holy Spirit... Romans 8:6-17 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. On your previously moving towards the sun... I don't understand your logic on this one. Christ has always existed. Jesus is "beyond" time. I would agree that Jesus brought a "higher realization" into the world, but the as the bible says, he is not the only one who is "possessor (realized) heaven and earth". Some words from Genesis for your consideration on the point... Genesis 14:18-20 (KJV) 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. Finally, who is this Melchizedek guy and why according to the Letter to the Hebrews, Jesus is identified as a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek, and so Jesus assumes the role of High Priest. Hopefully some words for your consideration. Best wishes, Jeff

Hi Chegg, Since you have quoted the above, could you list the source? The tradition? Also, is the above your personal perspective and experience? Thanks, Jeff (Edit - IPad formatting problem)

Hi Goatguy, Thank you for your thoughtful response. Do your above comments mean that you do not believe that the Gospel of Thomas agrees with and supports orthodox Christianity, hence rather than being the words of Jesus, you believe it is sort of an instruction manual for riddles in the canonical bible? Also, do you believe the words of Jesus in the biblical gospels are words that can be attributed to him, or are they also riddles? Finally, if you don't mind a personal question, what denomination of Christianty are you from/describing? Thanks again, Jeff

Hi Chegg, Thank you for your thoughtful response. You touch on some interesting points that I would like to learn a little more about your perspective on... I do not disagree that a Christ is "one with God". Is there only one such manifestation? Given above, what is your definition of the "Holy Spirit"? Also, what is "Sophia" as described in the bible? How did you develop the view that previous to Jesus souls/etheric double went to the sun? Why would that be the case? Thanks, Jeff

Hi Goatguy, I don't quite understand your point or see how this passage is in support of puns being used. Don't you think that in this passage, Jesus is describing his relationship to the world (and humanity) and how one may find "repose" (peace and rest in God)? Thanks, Jeff

28) Jesus said, "I took my place in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in the flesh. I found all of them intoxicated; I found none of them thirsty. And My soul became afflicted for the sons of men, because they are blind in their hearts and do not have sight; for empty they came into the world, and empty too they seek to leave the world. But for the moment they are intoxicated. When they shake off their wine, then they will repent." I also like this verse very much as it mirrors the beginning of John... He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:10-14 KJV) In the Thomas passage, Jesus is reminding us that he is manifestation of the Word that took physical form. By "intoxicated", he meant that he found that everyone was attached and focused on worldly things (trapped in samsara) and not thirsty for true Knowledge of God. Jesus became saddened (afflicted) by what he saw. Making the point that they are "sons of men", rather than the "sons of God" he had come to remind us to be (as described above in the John verses). Being "blind in the heart" means that one has not opened the "inner heart" and hence can not see (have direct knowledge of) God. Also, when a soul comes into the world it is empty (no stuff) and the same is true when we die (leave the world). When we "shake of the wine" and drop the attachments of the (intoxication ) of the world, we will return (repent) to God. Best wishes. (Edit - iPad format problems)

Hi Chegg, Sorry to intrude on your discussion... But, you are definitely implying a point, and I would be interested in your interpretation of the words. I think it could be an interesting discussion into the broader meaning of "being one with God". Best, Jeff

The original Greek word would be better translated as "return", rather than repent.

I agree that we should pay respect to intellectual learning, but prajñā of meditation is the direct realization of wisdom. Meaning learned from hearing, reading books and intellectual reflection is subject to the perceptions of the mind. As you stated above, one must sever (or step beyond) the mental "contamination".

It is definitely possible. Both because there are beings out there, but also as one increases their clarity, they drop mental rules/structures that limited certain types of behavior. The new found openness can lead to various experimentation.

With nothing to resonate with, the energy of the "attack" flows through as there is nothing to hit.

Hi Chegg, Thank you for your overview (and the blessing). From my perspective you have declared the list complete a little early. A few more steps for your consideration (and discussion)... 6. Lucky guy begins to experience "oneness" with the Holy Spirit and realizes that he is really not human/person constrained to the local body-mind. Begins to realize co-creation, but still holds onto plausible deniability. 7. Lucky guy further integrates with the Holy Spirit and finds that he can "shift" to other beings or define future light body form. Accepts responsibility for co-creation. 8. Lucky guy realizes full integration with the Holy Spirit and realizes the the primordial nature of God. Lucky guy is now infinitely free or infinitely trapped, depending on your perspective. Have a Merry Christmas everyone! p.s. My perspective is that at 4c you finally realize the role you have been playing is locked in. The key is realizing that you are not the character that you are playing. (Edit - added p.s.)

Hi Chegg, Interesting concept. Could you describe a little more about what you mean? Are you saying that you are somehow separate from your spirit? How do you know what is the will of your spirit? Do you know the future and what is mapped out for you? What happens if you fight it? Thanks, Jeff

Hi Deci & goatguy, Sorry to intrude on your discussion, but rather than "wretchedness" and repenting, the message of Jesus is one of returning to God. English versions of the gospels often describe Jesus as saying... "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." But, if one looks at the underlying greek, the phase translates more as... "Return, for the kingdom of God is at hand." Concepts like one's wretchedness and the associated desires/suffering are an illusion of the mind. As written in John, we are children of God and "sin" is found in the perceived separation of the will or flow of God/Tao. John 1:12-13 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. In my opinion, scriptural analysis of the gospels based on aspects of the old testament is challenging as rather than a continuation of a story, they are describing two different levels of realization/understanding... John 1:17 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Also, I would agree that Deci's concept of ignorance is closer to the mark, but it begs the further question of... Ignorance of what? It is that deeper understanding that the Gospel of Thomas points us to...

27) <Jesus said,> "If you do not fast as regards the world, you will not find the Kingdom. If you do not observe the Sabbath as a Sabbath, you will not see the Father." In this passage, I see Jesus talking about our relationship to God while living in the world. Talking about the Sabbath is an important point. In fasting from the world, Jesus is not saying that we should not live our lives and completely pull back from worldly interactions. But, he is saying that we to periodically (fast) and regularly (Sabbath) take a step back, go inside, and connect with God and the deeper aspects of ourselves.

Excellent point. As is there a difference in intent?

Sounds like very good advice to me. I would only add that when Jesus says that you love your brother like your soul, he is saying more than just loving others like yourself. He is reminding us to love others as the highest aspects of ourselves, to see others as they are in God.

I think the phrase works. Just wanted to make sure that we were talking about the same concept.

What does being a "light based being" mean to you?

How so? Everything is just a subset of the creator. Problem solved.

As long as one admits that something "exists", there is no way to debunk a creator.

I would definitely agree.

Hi SJ, Plus, given the above types of statements, I am not optimistic regarding discussing the logic of a statement.