Jeff

Hi C T, Sorry, no sources to quote for you. But, we all have the resources to verify it. On the emergence from emptiness... At the deepest level, emptiness is sort of like a primal chaotic sea of clear light bubbling with potential. The surface of the sun with light and blobs shooting out is a good example. “We” are blobs of light plasma in that bubbling sea. Each self aware blob is a separate “being”, but is part of (or made from) the whole. The primal sea itself is too chaotic for the vast majority of blobs to grow. Also, it is so chaotic that it is nearly impossible for a blob (being) to stably form. At some point, a blob hit critical mass and became stable. This blob/being then created a stable “bubble” in the primordial sea. This bubble was formed by separating the clear light and potential. The clear light is also sometimes called the “void”. The void is also called buddhamind or universal mind with “no activity”. “Form” is energy/light that is then created in the stable void/bubble of buddhamind which gives us what we perceive to be “existence”. The “potential” that was split off is what is called noble wisdoms. Buddhamind is a shared mind space for all beings in the bubble. Or, from the human perspective, we all share the deeper aspects of what is commonly called the "subconscious". Becoming a Buddha, is realization of all the aspects of buddhamind. Once fully realized, the Buddha can then go and create a new bubble (or world system).

Apech... Getting bored already... 3 at once... 4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same." This one for me is pretty classic. A newborn child is free of mental attachments. The fact that the child is "seven days old" is to tie it deeply to the story of creation in Genesis. The seven day is the holy Sabbath (the day of repose) and focus on God. The passage finishes with reminding us that we are "one" in Christ. 5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest." For an understanding of this one, it is helpful to turn to the gospel of John for help... John 1:9-10 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. In the above statement Thomas is talking about the light of the Holy Spirit that is found inside all of us. Earlier he told us to look inside ourselves and as you "look inside" it will become plain and light (or divinity) will become manifest.

Move on to 4 or give a little more time?

Hi SJ, Terms like conditioned and unconditioned are not necessarily helpful unless a context is provided. The Heart Sutra is describing it in the highest sense of Ultimate Reality... Then Mahamati asked the Blessed One, saying: Tell us, Blessed One, how all things can be empty, un-born, and have no self-nature, so that we may be awakened and quickly realize highest enlightenment? The Blessed One replied: What is emptiness, indeed! It is a term whose very self-nature is false-imagination, but because of one's attachment to false-imagination we are obliged to talk of emptiness, no-birth, and no self-nature. There are seven kinds of emptiness: emptiness of mutuality which is non-existent; emptiness of individual marks; emptiness of self-nature; emptiness of no-work; emptiness of work; emptiness of all things in the sense that they are unpredictable, and emptiness in its highest sense of Ultimate Reality. Lankavatara Sutra (Chapter 3) (edit - missing word)

As the Heart Sutra says... Emptiness is the "realization" of Void=Form and Form=Void...

Hi C T, My agreement comes from what is experienced and also what is described in many traditions. As ChiDragon describes here... As his direct translations says, his "engendered" is my "emerged from". The visible is the manifest or existing in "form". The Tao is Buddhist emptiness. The visible manifestation that emerges is Buddha or buddhamind. Then more visible is created in universal or buddhamind. In more classical Hindu terms, the Tao is pure Brahman, Ishwara emerges from Braham and creates the manifest (or visible stuff).

I would agree with ChiDragon on this one. The Tao did not create everything, but everything "emerged" or bubbled up into manifest form (which is still the Tao) from it.

Think about my concepts in the Christian Mysticism or the Transmission thread. I also "know" that I am right, but would you want me to present the information (left forever more) with no real debate on the topic... I will also rest here...

If the author was controlling it, would they allow dissent of their opinion (even if it was on point). I believe that there are many who would not. I agree that needless chatter (and heckling) is annoying for the author and the serious reader, but some would consider a counter argument as needless chatter.

If there is no ability to openly discuss the contributed article, why not just have the person put it in their ppf? Contributed articles gives an implied statement of greater "stature" on a topic. If the author only allows positive comments, how would the uninformed reader have a basis for understanding? Regards, Jeff

Emptiness is like a chaotic primordial sea of clear light bubbling with potential. Kind of like the surface of the sun...

3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." For me, this verse is a very powerful statement to the Jewish people of the time and also the institutional Christian concepts that are often currently taught. Jesus is saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is not found in some higher realm or afterlife that many believe, but instead found within yourself as Brian also said. And more deeply that once you "realize" that you are a "son", you will know that the "inside" and the "outside" are the same and that is the Kingdom. That "level" of realization and understanding is where one realizes that the "inner heart" maps directly to all of "external" creation.

What does the verse say to you?

Nice. Think we are ready to move on to verse 3?

Or think about being created in the "image" of the father. What about self aware beings each being like a small (and obstructed) "copy" of God in God?

Interesting point... Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven... Does that mean on should relinquish or "align" with the natural state/order as in Heaven. Does one completely relinquish or go with the flow of Tao?

Definitely not my intent to lead it to Buddhism. OK, then does a does a son of God (or Buddha) have the concept of "free will" or the independently "act"? I like your definition "To me it means the level of being in which you recognise in an immediate sense that you are not different to the power that is your origin.". So then since God has the "power" to create the world, would not also a son of God by your definition?

On ruling the All... Do you believe in the concept of an all powerful Buddha or Taoist "Immortal", or do you see it more like Jetsun when thinking about the nature of existence/consciousness? The definition of a "son of God" is a relevant point as we move forward. p.s. Jetsun - I assume that then you also do not believe in a concept of "free will"?

Hi BaguaKicksAss, I would definitely agree that different aspects can be realized at different levels. Rather than truly being levels, it is more like multidimensional growth and everyone can grow faster in specific aspects. By "astral" in level 10, I really meant that there is a fundamental shift in the nature of perception. One goes from percieving with the "mind" to percieving with the "heart". Regarding the rainbow body, I am not familiar if there is a specific hermetic terminology. In gnostic Christianity, it is sometimes called the body of truth or becoming "One with God".

Very good points. Going "light body" and leaving your physical form is different than going all the way to 12. One can transfer their consciousness into a light form starting at level 9-10. Also, each human body sort of has a maximum amount of light/energy that it can hold, to go beyond it, one must leave physical form. All human evolution has progressed, the human body can now hold more than in earlier times. Yes, there are individual chakras that continue after the 8th (but they don't map to the 12 levels). Also, another good point on the mini chakras. There are many others in the body, also some people don't notice the 8th as above the head, the feel it as an expansion in the inner heart. It sort of depends if you are more outwardly or inwardly focused.

It is a little more like the expand or explode into the complete divine being. It is a radical shift, like going from 3D to 13D. All past, present, future and parallel world versions of yourself are also integrated. This is also why they say talk about all Buddhas being 3 fold (past, present and future). Reaching level 12 is very rare (like once every 1000 years), when most people describe "merging with the light", they are describing level 8 (or possibly level 6 with astral light) and the light of consciousness. p.s. I also appreciated your additional perspectives in the above post.

You will be missed. Thanks for all of the light that you brought to the bums.

Hi Jetsun, My perspective is that Jesus is describing something more (and different) than what most other teachers describe. Do you find that they also use terms like "ruling over all" and moving mountains on command?

Apech, You can't expect every "saying" to be completely self contained (or in a easy order). Like sutra it must be looked at in the broader context of what every Jewish person would have known at that time. You said... "If he is saying that you will not experience death then this points to a form of immortality - as its Jesus I would assume physical immortality or the equivalent to what he achieved in being resurrected. I don't see here anything about reincarnation ... or indeed overcoming it ..." The concept of reincarnation was common in the Jewish tradition at that time. Jesus even describes that John the baptist had a previous life in the bible. But, reincarnation or not, it really doesn't matter as part of the tradition. The main point is that the body "dies", but the spirit/soul does not. The same point is further described in Romans. Romans 8:6-17 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Errands to run. I will respond to you second point later today. Continuing to the second point, Aoech said... "I would like to know what words are translated as 'troubled' and 'astonished' here - maybe something like amazed and in awe (in the trad. sense) and the All I take to be the Godhead .... ruling the All is an expression which needs more teasing out for meaning I feel. I don't recognise the Buddha-like concept of ruling the All - Buddha as far as I know does not speak like this. Ruling here must be Christ the king of course." The "troubled" point is very common in the gospels, remember that Jesus was bringing a "new covenant" or higher understanding. Here is one example, he goes on to describe that family members will fight over his words... Luke 12:51-52 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. On what Buddha's are like or do, I would suggest you read the Lotus sutra, but that is not really important. But, in general, Jesus gives examples of the "rule the all" in many places in the gospels... Matthew 21:21-22 21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Apech - Thanks for starting this thread. Also, I think these two saying go very well together... 1) And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death." 2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." In the first, Thomas is saying that these following words give guidance to enternal life and overcoming the reincarnation. In the second, he is saying that the words he brings are different than the historical old Testement. It is a new and "higher" understanding that will be vary hard for the Jewish people to accept. This is similar to other gospel statements about families having problems with it (3 against 2 stuff). He makes a big break with historical Jewish beliefs and Indian/Hindu beliefs of the time is the "he will rule over the All". In the "ruling", he is defining that a "son of God" does not "cease" like in other traditions. Also, "The All" would be consciousness or oneness. In essence, stating that Jesus's words lead to a "Buddha-like" concept. Finally, notice the departure with established institutional Christian beliefs. He says anyone who understands what he is talking about can "rule over the All". Not that he (Jesus), is the only son of God. This statement says that we are all children of God.