Jeff

I may have some how given you a misconception regarding the immortal fetus. The immortal fetus is not a "you" as constrained in the human body. It is a complete divine being. Think of it in terms of an archangel, taoist "immortal" or some people's concept of a god. Such beings are literally beyond the constraints of time and space.

Hi MooNiNite, Thank you for your kind words. Regarding Karma, you are correct that one is never truly free until 12, but by level 8, one has mostly stopped creating new Karma on a personal level. I also think you raise a very good point regarding the integration of the male and female components. Realizing the 7th chakra would be comparable to level 7, the 8th chakra (or inner heart/soul) is levels 8-9. One's "higher self" or deeper component of the subconscious is the opposite sex. The true realization of "oneness" requires the bringing together of the male and female sides of our being. While it could be described as being like sex in the early stages, it is really much more like "merging". This merging give "birth" to the new "immortal" being. This same thing is called the "mystery of the bridal chamber" in gnostic Christianity or part of the "completion stage" practices in Buddhism.

Hi Jetsun, The stages are meant to be a general map across all traditions with descriptions of what is experienced. The descriptions were more energetically given the broader TaoBums audience. But, in each case one can describe each "level" in terms of states of mind. I would also agree that one can "skip" any or all steps, I was just trying to provide a broader mapping. In particular, traditions like Zen are more mind based. It is possible to reach clarity of mind (7) with no energy aspects experienced. But, I believe that if one read's the Lankavatara sutra (pretty universal Zen sutra), you will see that Buddha discusses the importance of the "vow" to move on to full enlightenment. Also, it goes into great detail on the various levels of realization of emptiness, each of which also would map directly to the generic descriptions above. Energy aspects are included in the later stages of development in Buddhism (often called the completion stage).

IW, To try to answer your question, having some descriptions as to you definitions of the levels would be helpful. From my perspective, to be qualified to be a master/guru, one must have reached the level of realizing the "light" of consciousness (or God in the world/Holy Spirit). This would be levels 8-10 on my above descriptions. Anything less and you are too subject to the issues/fears and obstructions of mind. Also, many stop/get stuck at level 7 thinking they are "done", as the "local mind" is now quiet. (Jed McKenna books are a good example of this). As one reaches the deeper level's of consciousness, intent becomes critical. One increasingly becomes able to affect their existence and the thing around them. To a large existent, the percieved endgame is defined by one's own beliefs and intent. Historically, many traditions have had the "cease into God" concept as the endgame. Buddha realized there was a broader and deeper perspective, of helping everyone "realize" the truth. That is why he created the concept of the "vow". To help lock in a deep intent, so that one did not cease (or quit) in the bliss of oneness. To your specific Master question. For intent, it requires two components. The first is a drive for realizing the "truth". An desire to "go inside" and explore with no preconceived beliefs. This point is why the sutras of all traditions say things like knowledge=bondage. The second component is something like the Buddhist vow, but it is more like as described by Jesus, "love your neighbor as yourself". The word "love" is often mistaken to have some romantic concept, so in modern terms, the intent for a master level, may be better said as "forgive everyone for everything". It may sound corny, but truly forgiving others is the key to the inner heart/light and becoming a "master".

Hi IW, I would agree in general with your point. In my opinion, the best path is for one to "go inside" and find out for themselves the truth. But, I do not see how your comments relate to this thread. Are you implying that there is no "general" human spiritual progression to discuss?

Rather than an earthly power, in the Christian tradition it's more like a seed planted in us that is actualized. Sort of like we have an earthly body and a soul. Kundalini could be described as the "integration" process of the earthly body and soul. You might find the following scripture helpful... 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. p.s. Reading these texts you probably now see why in the past I have tended to use Buddhist terms to try to explain things.

Thanks for the greater details. I would also agree with you that there is really only "one thing". In my experience in Christian tradition Shekinah = Holy Spirit and Kundalini is a earthly power in the body of the Holy Spirit. The text below alludes to it as in Christian tradition the world is "dead" and the power of the Holy Spirit "raises you up" (as in Kundalini). The "descent" and "doves" is a later (completion) stage... Romans 8:11-14 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Also, the "good vibrations" of Kundalini can be called "living water"... John 7:37-38 37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” (p.s. In the original greek, I think the words are more "out of the belly" rather than heart.)

No problem, happy to help. But, I am a little confused as to what you are specifically looking for. Are you looking for specific references regarding the Holy Spirit as like below... John 14:10-17 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.15 “If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. Or more related in general to Christian Mysticism, like... Gospel of Thomas - Sayings 1 and 2. 1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death." 2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

Here is an online source for the "Sayings of the Desert Fathers". ( http://www.ixoyc.net/data/Fathers/174.pdf) Also, if you are interested in Eastern Orthodox aspects in general, I would highly recommend the Philokalia. There are many good sources for it online. Regards.

Apech, Any interest in a Gospel of Thomas discussion as a continuation? 2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

Hi TI, I would definitely agree that there is not much directly written on Transmission (or any advanced practice) in the Christian tradition. It has historically been only an oral tradition since the early consolidation of "Chrisitanity" by the Roman empire. Also, if you have read the Christian Mysticism thread (http://thetaobums.com/topic/31213-christian-mysticism/), you will find in greater detail my position and doctrinal support. In essence, I am saying that the "true meaning" of communion is direct transmission with Jesus. As, the reader will see, it was a controversial position for some of the forum members. This thread and the details I describe in it are an outgrowth of the requests of certain members who participated in the Christian Mysticism thread. Regarding "light" transmission in general... Any master/guru who has the capability to transmit at the "light" level is beyond the differences of mind and paths/traditions. Hence, since you are very familiar with Dzogchen (which also uses transmission), feel free to post any Dzogchen/Bon master's words which would disagree or contradict anything that I have said regarding transmission or light transmission. Any disagreements you may find would be useful (and fun) to discuss. (p.s. in our email discussions years ago, I used words like "connecting" to describe things like mind transmissions.)

IW, I may have somehow misspoken if you have somehow given the impression that my path has been passive. While I believe that "acceptance" and "letting go" is critical of any path, I more consider myself in your self initiative category. As I said above, I have a deep curiosity and enjoy exploring. Many times I have pushed farther than I should and been energetically "fried". I would say more that I have a deep abiding trust in God/Divine and know "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that everything will be OK (even in death). I would also say that a truly loving grandmother knows way more about spiritual growth than anything that can be found in any practice. To your other point, I would say that all souls have equal potential, but i would agree that each soul has a different "starting point" that is experienced in a human life. So, on a practical level I would probably agree with you. On describing how to do a transmission, the challenge is that rather than a practice, it is really an inherent capability of what is often called a "light body". The light body itself is not really something you build, but rather the natural outgrowth of realizing the inner heart/8th chakra/Rigpa. All of which is really ultimately dependent on removal of issues/fears and obstructions in the "local mind". Meditation and energy practices help one notice and then release (let go of) the energy structures that make up the stored "form" of the issues/fears and obstructions. As I said in the earlier post, there really is no "one size fits all", but i do believe it is helpful to realize what types of practices are useful at different levels of spiritual development. I will start such a thread in a day or so. Everyone feel free to share.

Hi TI, It has been a long time, I hope you are well. "Kundalini" is an aspect of the Holy Spirit. I thought these words from a teacher might help remind you of our old discussions on focusing on the heart, playing with "energy" and doing nothing... Practices from the Zhang-Zhung Nyan Gyud as transmitted orally by Lopon Tenzin Namdak Thödgal refers to the nature of the state of Rigpa. The Natural State (rigpa) pervades our entire physical body, but it is especially concentrated in the hollow cavity inside of our physical heart. The Kati nerve is a tube like hollow channel. By means of the wisdom winds (ye-shes kyi rlung), the Natural State (rig-pa) comes up through the channel from the heart. This represents an important method: the Natural State (rig-pa) comes up out of the heart, moves along the Kati nerve and goes out through the eyes. This Natural State (rigpa) shines through the eyes, that is, it comes up through the channels and goes out through the eyes, although actually the Natural State(rigpa) is immovable. Between our internal space and external space beyond, we have a window or door. The Natural State (rigpa) resides in the heart and it comes and goes through the Kati channel and through the doorways of the eyes. Here we can find the unification of energy and awareness. Unification of these two exists equally everywhere from the top of the head down to the feet, but normally this situation is covered over with obscurations, and we do not see it clearly. But it is clear in the Kati channel and here it is like the sky without clouds. This is an indestructible gnosis or knowledge. If we practice consistently, we will realize Ngonshe (mngon-shes) or the clairvoyant powers. Even if we just practice ordinary śamatha, as the Hindus and others do, we will realize these powers. But this clairvoyance is limited, whereas in Tantra and Dzogchen, the clairvoyant powers will be very vast. “There exist several methods for keeping in the state continuously. We can go on for years without distraction.” (p.s. Alwayson - You might also be interested related our old discussion related to what I called "heart viewing".)

Hi IW, Now those are some interesting and provacitive questions... Rather than any specific goal of mastery or level, I think of it as that I have an infinite curiosity in understanding creation/God. I have found that one does not "gain" mastery, rather one "clears" the obstructions that hide what we have always been. Call it a Buddha or a child of God, it does not matter, the process is much more like remembering than learning. Regarding practices, I think it is highly dependent on the where the person is in their own development. I do believe that late stage practices are critical and much of that knowledge has been lost to humanity. True light transmission is an example of that. On my own practices... It is pretty simple... I stay focused in the pure light of the moment as much as possible. But, if you (or anyone) is interested, I would be happy to discuss issues and possible practices for various levels in spiritual development.

Best explanations of what? And do they relate to any of Jesus's words?

I don't have any experience with Gurdieff or his concepts. (That is why I asked. )

Do you think his stuff is similar to gnostic Christianity or closer to other traditions?

What is the law of seven and the 4th way materials? Do they relate to Jesus's teachings or Christian Mysticism?

Hi 3bob, Could you further explain what you mean by... "three in one" is of all time and space...? As it seems to be important to your position. Also, can you point to any place in the words of Jesus (any cannon or gnostic gospel) which supports this concept? The concept of the Holy Trinity was not introduced until around the 300s with the shift of the church to Roman control.

Hi 3bob, I would agree that gnostic Christianity (and specifically what I have been saying) is not a Brahman style description. If anything, it is much closer to Buddhism with Jesus being the equivalent of a Buddha. He is "one with God", yet he is a "son/child of God". Jesus (and he teachings) are about us becoming "one in Christ". Regarding your comments on nonduality, are you using the Buddhist meaning of the word or the "oneness" meaning of the word? In a light transmission, the being "giving it" operates from a level of oneness with all beings, but from the perception of the "receiver", they are obviously operating at a level of duality. Finally, I.completely agree that what a "soul to do" is that everyone should "go inside" and find out the truth for themselves.

As Apech mentioned, it is also in many places... 1 Corinthians 12:11, 12 KJV "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."

At that depth, one is beyond "mind" and there is no concept of right and wrong.

Interesting point. But, I would also argue that the percieved "separateness" is more dependent on the relative "depth" in consciousness/oneness. Things like light transmissions work because at a deep enough level in consciousness you and I are really the same being (and have no arms or legs). A Christ is one who has realized such depth and greater.

I would agree that there is no need to say that they are the same. While the lineages may all ultimately lead to the same place, the "outer forms" and early stages are separated by culture, viewpoint and technique. In the past, I have been a major proponent of trying to show the parallels, as I see a great beauty to the symmetry of the traditions. I think part of the issue is that certain traditions do a much better of describing things in easy to understand terms.

It the context, he is describing that tantra is not something that can shown by being written down in words. It is "beyond" a simple practice that one can do. It is a knowledge (or empowerment) that is "shared" by a realized being.