Jeff

Thanks for sharing. I read it a little bit differently. As you mentioned earlier, the perspective of different jhanas change as one move "beyond" it. You can sort of think of each jhana as an increasing "depth" in consciousness (or mind system=universal mind=buddhamind). One rarely ever fully realizes a "level" or removes all of issues/fears (mental obstructions). Even a Buddha needs to continually go back and use the "light of awareness" to clear stuff up. It is a never ending process until of "ceases".

Without a specific question, is there a need to say more. The issue is really about the nature of "tantra" and it's meaning in modern culture. From the "ego perspective" or with "limited clarity of mind" it tends to get simplified down to good sex. But, the deeper (or inner) meaning is perfectly described below... "The Tantras are teachings and knowledge based on the application of energy. Their origin is not found in the oral teachings of a master, as in the sutras taught by the Buddha, but stems from the manifestation in pure vision of a realized being." - CNN (Alwayson - please give some counter argument or source and not just say...bad translation )

If we are going to discuss a topic, it would be helpful if you would be familiar with the material. Off the cuff resposes, just demonstrate lack of understanding on the topic. The Sutra goes into great depth on the topic in many sections. Here is a brief quote that relates to the discussion in general... Chapter V The Mind System Then Mahamati said to the Blessed One: Pray tell us, Blessed One, what is meant by mind (citta)? The Blessed One replied: All things of this world, be they seemingly good or bad, faulty or faultless, effect-producing or not effect-producing, receptive or non-receptive, may be divided into two classes: evil out-flowings and the non out-flowing good. The five grasping elements that make up the aggregates of personality, namely, form, sensation, perception, discrimination, and consciousness, and that are imagined to be good and bad, have their rise in the habit-energy of the mind-system,- they are the evil out-flowings of life. The spiritual attainments and the joys of the Samadhis and the fruitage of the Samapatis that come the wise through their self-realization of Noble Wisdom and that culminate in their return and participation in the relations of the triple world are called the non out-flowing good. The mind-system which is the source of the evil out-flowings consists of the five sense-organs and their accompanying sense-minds (vijnanas) all of which are unified in the discriminating-mind (manovijnana). There is an unending succession of sense-concepts flowing into this discriminating or thinking-mind which combines them and discriminates them and passes judgement upon them as to their goodness or badness. Then follows aversion to or desire for them and attachment and deed; thus the entire system moves on continuously and closely bound together. But it fails to see and understand that what it sees and discriminates and grasps is only a manifestation of its own activity and has no other basis, and so the mind goes on erroneously perceiving and discriminating differences of forms and qualities, not remaining still even for a minute.

3bob, What do you think is the deeper meaning of this story? Why would it be important for Buddha to "revisit" jhana's?

If you disagree on a topic, it would be helpful if you would explain your logic (or position) for disagreeing. Or, if you prefer, feel free to quote sutra (or teachings) in defense. Making statements like "new age" may have some meaning to you, but is not relevant to the discussion. For the readers of this thread who are interested in the concept of universal mind (or buddhamind), I would highly recommend the Lankavatara sutra. If explains it in very detailed and consise terms. (edit - iPad issue)

3bob - I think that is a really good point and very true for all us along the path. Each new "depth" uncovers a new level of understanding that changes our perception of what we previously "believed" to be true. Many times I have experienced or noticed something that I thought to be profound, only to later realize that I was just blindly feeling part of the proverbial "elephant". The "body" is an aspect of (or mapping into) universal mind. All that is percieved is of universal mind (or if you prefer...buddhamind).

All "sexual" perception of the bliss from tantra is a mental association/attachment. That is the point. Any truly advanced teacher can give you this guidance. (sorry for heading sideways in your thread 3bob)

If one has read the full thread, they would see that I said specifically that in post 5. it would also seem to be point of 3bob's leading statement in the original post. But, your statement does not relate to or address the nature of tantra, and it's "mentally" percieved bliss.

Jhanas have to do with ongoing clarity of the mind (or universal mind). With a more "clouded" mind, tantric flows are experienced as sexual. As clarity "increases", one "drops" the mind attachment that associates the experience as sexual, and one can more directly (or accurately) percieve it.

Nope. What does tantric sexual bliss mean to you? What has your teacher taught you?

Mahasiddhas taught Vajrayana, where "tantric" bliss is superior. The sexual aspect is described by those who have not yet realized the first Jhana.

Seems to me it sort of depends on what you view as naturalness or the illusion ending... Most people seem to define it at the state of "clarity of mind". At that point, one is past most of the automated ego responses. Things like anger (and irritation) are gone and one can directly respond to the moment. But, from that there one sort of has a "choice" to make...

Not fair... I asked first... But, oh well... At the first Jhana, one notices the pleasant sensations of a single pointed focus (or concentration)... By the eighth, you have realized that you were just fooling yourself and that the whole concept of meditation itself is just a "contrived" state of mind... Or, said another way... you "realize" that meditation and normal daily activities are really the same thing.

Hi 3bob, Could you further explain what you are trying to say in the above post? What you think it means or implies. Thanks, Jeff

Hi IW, Thank you for the interesting discussion and thread. It again sounds like we are pretty much in agreement, but a few points of clarification. I like to use the term obstructions, because it has a broader meaning than just issues and fears. At sort of the level of "local mind", it is mostly just clearing issues and fears. But, as one goes deeper into "universal mind", it becomes things that "obstruct" us from realizing that we are also the tree that is outside the window or the energy/light that flows through us. Also, I do not have your large group experience, my experience on "equalizing pressure" with two, it is not an average concept. The "clearer" one creates a space for the more obstructed one. The obstructed one, if they "let go" can equalize to the "deeper level" of the clearer one. I have never heard of the term drashan. Could you describe a little more about the relationship between a master and the group? Is it something that you participate in? Also, how do you define that someone is qualified to be a master?

Hi Seth, After our discussion, it sounds like we really were always in agreement. In my experience, I have found that there is no limit to how far it goes... That is why some call it buddhamind.

I agree with some of your disagreeing... All that exists is an aspect of universal mind. I agree that the further you go into the subconscious, the more you access greater aspects of universal mind (including parallel worlds). But, as "clarity" grows, they become part of conscious mind and directly accessable (no longer dreams).

If one resides in the primordial state, is there such a thing as "practice at night"?

Thanks. That is helpful to know. You also have said that he has specifically stated that he is not enlightened. Does that also mean that he does not "reside in rigpa"?

Hi Seth, I would disagree. Dreams are sort of energy flowing in the subconscious mind during sleep. Part of the process of spiritual growth is the "accepting and letting go" of fears and issues in the subconscious. As the issues are released, it is kind of like the conscious mind expands into what had been previously subconscious. Over time, there is less and less subconscious stuff to give rise to dreams. Regards, Jeff

Why would it be the highest practice? I would think that at Norbu's level, the normal daily state would be the same as dream level (or meditation).

Hi Juliank, If you search the forums, you will find that there are a few strong anti-AYP advocates here. In particular, Seeker of Tao has done a pretty detailed analysis on what he believes are the problems with the AYP approach. Most of the detractors do not have any issues with the spinal breathing practice, there concern is with the mantra meditation (and approach around it). While not an AYP practitioner myself, I am very familiar with their practices, and have visited one of their retreats. I am also pretty good friends with a few of their leaders. I would be happy to discuss it if you are interested. Also, if you post the questions more specifically in the main forum, I am sure that you will get a lot of comment on the topic. Regards, Jeff

Logs for me too.

Hi IW, It sounds like it would be helpful if we had an agreed upon dictionary of terms for our discussion... In your "group mind" concept, do all of the participants need to be of a similar (or a minimum) level to participate? In my (very limited) experience with group efforts, one of the people (or beings) is usually higher (or deeper) in consciousness and sort of holds the "space" for the group (and kind of becomes the leader). On broader frequency ranges... I meant something similar to what you mentioned regarding men and women working together. In your intent example, the group is trying to focus on a specific frequency range (love) and share that energy. Since, we all sort of naturally broadcast on all frequencies with which we have clarity, so in "dual cultivation", there is a less specific focus and each party is sort of naturally "hit" in obstructed areas by the other person's clarity on that type of issue. If each party "let's go of the issues", it is kind of like equalizing pressure. This is the same dynamic as being in the presence of a true guru/master.

Hi IW, Very interesting post. Thank you. I have definitely experienced the two person (male-female) effect that you have described. At broad frequency ranges, I have heard it called a "dual cultivation" loop. The broader group dynamic sounds very interesting. Is there sort of a limit on effectiveness? Or, the more the better? Regards, Jeff