Jeff

Thanks. But that does not really answer my question. What do you mean by there is unbroken awareness? If you have a dream in the first place, doesn't that simply prove that you don't have unbroken awareness, because some dream popped up? Just like if you mind runs off in some daydream during the waking state.

So in your view, is something like lucid dreaming the same as Turiya? As the person maintains awareness of them-self in the dream? As this seems to be the fundamental point of the debate to me. Or as you succinctly said, whether there is a "beyond the beyond" or not.

I am a huge supporter of the concept of having an agreed upon nomenclature for such discussions. But, the challenge is even broader than the words themselves, as each experience is different and hence the nature of the use of the word can be dramatically different even if one agrees to the meaning.

Awareness - Conscious focus in mind, as there are tons of things happening that are subconscious or you are unaware of. Consciousness - Same as mind. Mind - Same as consciousness, but can often be thought of as sort of "local" mind and more universal mind/consciousness.

I think you raise a good point. Any active dreaming (whether lucid or not), is not Turiya. But, I would also agree that it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep, and it is very much like Spotless described earlier... laying in bed, fully aware at various layers of consciousness... and then your wife hits you and tells you stop snoring...

How do you feel today? Good night? Notice any change?

Actually you did connect, and even sort of went higher in consciousness. Maybe just a little disorientating. Some sleep will help integrate it. Also, I have some work to do now, but can discuss more tomorrow. Best wishes.

Yes, on more empathic. Maybe think of it like you are energetically connecting to the people subconsciously and that connection causes you to feel or sense more from them at an emotional level. Rather than weakening (or ignoring) it, you can just start to notice the underlying energy of it. Yes, fits well and I did feel you actually connecting so expected you to have some response. The waves of pleasurable feelings (rather than rising up or super quiet mind), imply more that you are more heart based. Let’s see if you also notice the polarity difference of the energy too... I am going to send you a hug. This time instead try to imagine me as a woman for a minute. Then stick your finger in my heart again. See if you notice a difference or if there is an increase in the pleasure or some change with rising up or feeling taller. Doing it now...

In chakra terms, you currently have chakras 1-5 open, and are currently transmitting at the throat (5th chakra). You are subconsciously energetically connecting to people and your environment around you. Probably have some vivid dreams or feel tingly vibrations around stuff when your mind is quieter or silently listening to stuff. As for practices, it sort of depends on what you may have felt or sensed with the experiment. The good news is that you did reach me and were able to make the conscious connection. Depending on what you get, people tend to either be more heart or mind based. Different traditions sort of concentrate on one of the two sides.

Also, want me to respond on findings here or send you a private message instead?

Also, for an experiment now. Imagine me in front of you and stick your finger inside my heart. Feel it, dont worry about a complicated visualization.

Checking on you now. See if you notice anything...

Ok if I do sort of a remote energy scan on you to maybe make some specific suggestions? Also, you are at a level where you may notice my checking. Could feel like a rising up, mind quieting, or some vibration at heart or throat. And if you are interested, you are currently transmitting energy at the throat (which is all good stuff).

Nope. Can tell you already have some real energy flow. I would suggest you find a real teacher or pick some tradition to work with. You already notice/feel it, or are doing a lot subconsciously.

At more normal levels, but with energy flow. Fire/transmission feels like heat or getting warm because one is hitting issues and fears but not releasing them, so the resistance feel warm, and hence the name “fire”. Reception/water is the letting go or releasing, so one frees up space, that new space takes a while for the energy to expand into it, so it tends to feel cool/cold, and hence the name “water”.

The two are really just the polarities of the same thing. But at higher levels of consciousness, fire will feel like expansion or rising up, water will feel like tingling or vibration. Fire is transmission, water is reception. Between the two poles energy/light flows. But it is like a pendulum swinging back and forth, and the higher you go (and the mentally clearer you are) the broader the range of the pendulum swing, and the easier to notice.

He has some real power and sends an energy transmission at the level of the 6th chakra (third eye). So when he transmits it at the base of the spine, the energy is really hitting the 3rd eye, but at the physical body layer it feels like it rises up the spine. Depending on the issues and fears of the person obstructing the flow, it will feel like a slight tingle up to a powerful push (or nothing at all). Actually, a person who feels a slight tingle is actually more “clear” person.

I dont think Siva is simply trying to describe some theory. As he has stated, I believe he is trying to explain his point. The challenge for such a discussion is that he trying to describe sort of a "layer", which you and others do not acknowledge or perceive to exist. My guess is that his quoting the master Ahbinavagupta is try to find words to describe this layer (that you do not acknowledge). At a practical life level, the difference would comparing a simply quiet mind, to one that is active, but like in the Dzogchen concept of Rigpa, spontaneously perfects as stuff comes up. So like the issues and fears actually dissolve, rather than simply being silent (while still effecting your subconscious responses). To show the difference in actual joint practices, I have shared the space and then have the participants try to bring up their deepest fears and issues. More advanced students can notice the underly energy structures break down (dissolve), while other students will just feel a lessoning of the pain/attachment to that issue or fear.

In mental terms, water is reception or being receptive to things, accepting things. Fire is transmission or the desire to do things, to strive or act. The TTC describes it well in many chapters, but the basic point is here... EIGHT The highest good is like water. Water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive. It flows in places people reject and so is like the Tao. In dwelling, be close to the land. In meditation, go deep in the heart. In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. In speech, be true. In ruling, be just. In business, be competent. In action, watch the timing. No fight: No blame.

Very interesting idea, and some of my own recent meditations have been related to a similar concept. Your question ultimately fits in with the concept of a “new world” that arises as described in the book of Revelations. In a way, you could say you are right as the concept of original sin could be thought of the nature or limited capability of the human world system. That human beings are limited because of the built in (body level) separation that needs to be realized/integrated to become whole (which is all of the separate two becoming one or previous verse talking about woes with a body or soul needing each other). With the second coming in Christianity, there is sort of this built in integration as part of the new world. Some would call it that divine beings will be more easily accessible. At a human body level, there is an increase in the amount of energy/light that it can hold without destabilizing like many traditions describe as ascending.

There is a huge cross over with the traditional gospels. My theory was that it was not included in the Bible because it does not support the supremacy of Peter (and hence Rome) as the council was overseen by the Roman emperor at the time.

Thanks for sharing. Not really sure what you think we are not agreeing about? Clarity that Norbu talks about in Dzogchen would seem to be similar to samskaras disappearing. You are just describing the cause, and he is describing the absence of the cause. Also, I would agree that some dreams are associated with the astral body, but I would just say that is very rare for most. Maybe like 1%, as most have to many local mind samskaras "in the way of" any astral projections, and hence it is mostly just the residual as you described. Also, even with astral activities, the residual is "viewed" or reflected in the local mind as the perception that creates the mind/dream experience.

To me, this is the most interesting point. From Jonesboy’s quote... “If the level of the practitioner is highly advanced, the state of chosed may manifest and dreaming will cease. This state is different from not remembering dreams, which may be caused by lack of clarity or by temporary circumstances like too deep sleep or heavy food. When one ceases to dream, the dreams never arise again and clarity becomes manifest both in the waking state and in the state of dream.” Dreams are simply subconscious mental activity. Energy flows spilling over into the local mind space.

Some more from the gospels on the same topic... Romans 8:6-176For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Yes, we have discussed this many times, I just have to respectfully disagree. 1.22. mahāhṛidānusaṁdhānān mantravīryānubhavaḥ By the attentive continuity of meditation on the great ocean of consciousness the power of supreme I is attained.