Jeff

Hi Stefos, Please share with us what you learn. Best wishes, Jeff

I also enjoy the discussion... And I would agree that "ceasing" concept is common to many modern day traditions that think in terms of consciousness. But, in some traditions it is realized as "outer form", with the deeper and "inner form" very rarely ever being realized. The difference in the sort of levels that I described is found is described also described here in the Secret Gospel of Mary... 12. Disciples of Mary said to her, “We are going on a pilgrimage to the holy land so we might see where you and the Lord lived.” Mary said to them, “The holy land is wherever a child of Light goes, and it is where the child of Light abides. The holy land is where the Anointed and the soul are joined, it is the bridal chamber.” In the spiritual advancement process, one first drops the "ego" (fears & issues) where one realizes the "clarity of mind". Many mistake this for enlightenment (God) and stop here. But after that has stabilized, one begins to notice the "light of God". This is the beginning of "oneness" or the realization of the soul. In other traditions, it is also know as beginning the "completion stage" or building the light body. The light body is the description of the deeper integration and connection to all existence/consciousness. Or, where one realizes that the inside and outside are the same. The anointed is a fully realized Christ/Buddha who is beyond "consciousness". An highly evolved soul begins to be able to perceive beyond consciousness and ultimately can "merge" with an anointed, and thus themselves begin to realize the "fabric" of consciousness. The Lankavatara Sutra describes the stopping and getting "stuck" in the following words... The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death. Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis. But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. p.s. Sorry about slipping again Apech... But, needed the clearer Buddhist words.

Hi Dominicus, No problem, we just disagree. My perspective is that what you are describing is the interim step of realizing/integrating with the soul. (Sort of like "saint level"'). As, Jesus say in the Gospel of Thomas, my experience is that "we" are that which "appeared" in God's image. Children of God that when realized are more like a "full operating subset" in God. 50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'" Or, from the Secret Gospel of Mary... 1. These are sayings, spoken by Salome the Maiden in the name of St. Mary Magdalene, which women of wisdom have held in trust. Mary said, “If you know the Woman of Light, you will know your Mother and be reborn of the Mother Spirit as a child of light. Because the light is bornless, you will have eternal life.”

Very true...

Hi Rene, The two really do come together, but it is sort of in the description of the details. The unknowing (or dropping of Ego) is the letting go of all fears and "local mind" obstructions. One then reaches a state of "clarity of mind", from this point there are sort of two ways to go. One can just sort of hang in the bliss of clarity (stay on the mountaintop) or reenter the world to continue the process of also clearing "non-local" obstructions (also called "oneness"). A Christ (or Buddha) is one who continues on for the benefit of all sentient beings. Many other traditions just stop and hang on the mountaintop. Best wishes, Jeff

Hi Seth, Things like the "Cloud of unknowing" are important steps along the way, but not the realization of "Christhood". Unknowing is the state of clearing the "local mind" of obstructions (anger, fears, etc...). In Christian terms, it is the realization of the "soul". From there it goes on to expand to oneness with all things. Christhood is beyond that, realizing the true primordial nature of God.

Hi Dominicus, The concept of there being "no more you" or the individual view of existence ceasing is not the case in Christhood ( or Buddhahood). In Christhood, one more like a subset of God that it is of God. A "son of God" who realizes it and then becomes a co-creator in God. The Gospel of Thomas describes as below... 108. Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him." The separate "him" does not cease. The percieved obstructions are just cleared (surrendered). Best wishes, Jeff

Hi Deci, Thank you for the above post and it's natural clarity. Best wishes, Jeff

Very beautifully said.

Sorry if I implied that you were a fundamentalist, I definitely did not mean to do that. My point was really in relationship to the concept of Christian Trinity in general. I believe that it was a much later concept and has been "read into" the ongoing interpretations of the bible. I think that there is actually more support for Theophilus of Antioch's position regarding Sophia (Wisdom). The best description of Sophia can be found in Proverbs... proverbs 8:22-31 22 The Lord created me at the beginning* of his work,* the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,* or the world’s first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;* and I was daily his* delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

Hi Apech, I would agree that your perceptive is more similar to the platonic and also the institutional Christian view. But, you have to remember that the concept of the Trinity in the early church did not even exist at the time of the writing of the gospels. The first of the early church fathers to use it was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century. And he defined the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia). The first real use of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and used it as a defense against aspects of the early church that said that Jesus was a human prophet and not "God". The Christian tradition did not declare Jesus God until Constantinople's council of Nicea in the 3rd century.

Yes. God is primordial and beyond word and form. The Holy Spirit is God in creation/existence. God as word (Logos), thought, energy or any form. Christ is the "word made flesh". Or, God in existence, "realized" in flesh.

I would definitely agree that "So a great wind and tongues of flame" is describing the power of the Holy Spirit.

Also, Psalms 33-6 specifically says... By the word of the Lord (Logos) were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. Also, the first words of creation in Genesis match John pretty directly, describing that the Spirit of God was with God when there was only void... 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Hi Apech, How are you describing the word Logos? Wikipedia gives the following... Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (ca. 20 BC–AD 50) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[6] The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[7] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnate Logos. Is not the Holy Spirit... the divine, through which all things are made? Best, Jeff

I think that Apech's posting of the beginning of the gospel of John is a helpful point in the overall discussion. But, I believe that a few more lines will paint a more complete picture of the topic. Below are the words with my comments added... John 1: 1-15 (KJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. In the beginning of "existence", the Holy Spirit was with God and was God. (Or Form=Void and Void=Form) 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Everything is made by and also "from" God. No separation. Everything is God stuff. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. God is life and this "life" is the self-awareness of men. It is a reference to man being in the image of God. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. The light of God(or Holy Spirit) is everywhere, but it is not noticed in existence. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. John describing himself. Here to tell about it, but not "enlightened". 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Now John is telling us... That the Holy Spirit (and God) is in every person that exists. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. The Holy Spirit is in the world and made of/by him (as God in existence), but nobody notices. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. The Holy Spirit reaches out to everyone, but no one pays attention. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: But, anyone who pays attention, he teaches to be a son of God (not only "one" son) or "enlightened". 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Which is not a product of the body or the mind, but beyond mind (of God). 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Now we are finally starting to talk about Jesus... 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. John telling us that Jesus is enlightened or a true "son of God". The story of Jesus told by John continues from this point... Best wishes, Jeff

Hi Apech, The Holy Spirit is also called the "word" in the bible. It is the primal "vibration" that defines all energy. All form or the physical world is made of energy. Hence, the Holy Spirit is the aspect of God that is manifest in energy/form. Regards, Jeff

Hi 3bob, Like you I have a pretty tough hide on these things. I find the greatest challenge is to find words in which one can agree to the meanings. Hence, rather than attempting to mix traditions, I periodically slip in using another tradition's word/term because I think it has a more universally agreed meaning for the Toabum readers. To respond to you point, while also staying on topic for Apech, I will give a quick overview regarding what "comes" in the broader second coming (the reader can do their own comparision or not to other traditions...). As I mentioned before, for Jesus to "help" in growth towards God, direct communion (or Union) with "form" of the master was necessary. The master becomes the network or broader path.. With the second coming, there is an even broader expansion. Human potential has expanded, allowing the integration of all paths. The human network now allows for greater and broader network processing and expanded oneness with all of the "other" human networks (traditions) and people. It is kind of like there is now a multidimensional internet, where in the past only multiple separate computer networks existed. Additionally, the new network expands beyond time and to all "parallel" human world systems. That one should give everyone something to discuss. (edit - comma and ")" )

Hi 3bob, I definitely agree with you on the all souls point and apologize if my words were confusing. The "no pearls for pigs" concept is really more about the "right information" for the right time. Regarding your p.s., how do you feel that I am throwing Buddhism into the Christian mix?

These words are very important in describing what Jesus did and what a "Christ" is... It is always very challenging to describe things like this without an agreed upon set of "defined" terms (that is why I often use Dzogche/Buddhist ones). It may be helpful for those who are interested to review my old thread on the stage of progression in the contributed articles section. http://thetaobums.com/topic/25866-stages-of-progressionenlightenment/ As one develops spirtitually, they go through various levels of perception. First the local mind, then beginning aspects of "universal mind", and ultimately aspects of "oneness". When one truly realizes oneness, they know that they are all beings and can also "be with" all beings. Hence, at the level of oneness you can gain knowledge/insight from various divine beings. In Christian terms, they are angels, saints and divine beings like Jesus & Mary (in other traditions various Gods and Buddhas or visiting higher heavens). Historically, reaching these higher beings and higher energies was very rare and required a significantly advanced soul ( beyond the 7th chakra in a seven Chakra system). As I said in the previous network analogy, normally a living master/guru would be the conduit. In living form Jesus had realized beyond the sort of "universal human" level of oneness and could be with all souls/beings that wished to share presence with him. Normally, that would be lost upon his leaving the material plane. But, in his acension, he sort of became a the "living network" or connected everyone to the "community of Christ". This network upgrade made it possible to "feel" the Holy Spirit at "less evolved" spiritual levels. He lowered the bar so that anyone with an "open heart" (or open 4th chakra) could start to notice the broader aspects of existence (in God). Peace, Jeff

Hi 3bob, In gnostic Christian terms, the purpose the existence (or Heaven and Earth) is for a soul to realize their oneness in God. Kind of like giving a stable environment for the growth and development as a full child of God. Rather than saying that it was just specifically for James, the text is referencing him as an example of a very advanced soul with a clue. It is sort of the "positive" version of the "don't throw pearls to pigs" statements in the gospels. Also, I will touch on your Holy Ghost comment in my response to Apech. Regards, Jeff

Hi Rene, The Gospel of Thomas is primarily a list of sayings of Jesus and does not give any more details about levels of understanding. But, other gospels (that did not make the cut) speak to it directly. They describe that there was sort of an inner/higher understanding group that was led by James and Mary Magdolene and a outer/lower understanding for the masses that was led by Peter. There is even a gospel where one of the apostles actually tells Peter to stop being sexist and listen to Mary Magdolene, because they all knew that Jesus loved her (and her understanding of his words was) best. Many gnostic Christians see the lineage flowing through Mary Magdolene as Jesus's living in the world consort/partner. At one point the Cathlolic church made up the story that she was a protestitute to undermine the perspective. Amazingly, the Catholic church has retracted the statement (admitting that it was wrong) in recent times, but the "story" persists. Best, Jeff

Hi 3bob, I would definitely agree that the Jesus that I have met has complete freedom and power within the wheel. Regarding a successor... The following words are from the Gospel of Thomas... 12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?" Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." May be why the Roman bishops and emperor did not include the Gospel of Thomas in the early bible...

My perspective is a little different. Depending on the context, I think it means both the "enlightenment" of the individual, but also, more interesting for our discussion, the coming of a second Christ ( or Maitreya Buddha). Evolution (or the Holy Spirit) marches on, or as Jesus says "greater works are coming"... John 14:10-12 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Fair enough... On the topic, what is your (or anyone else's) concept on the definition of the "second coming" of the Christ? (Your turn to go first)...