Jeff

On your evolution point... I guess it depends on where one thinks evolution is naturally "taking" the human form. What do you think "happens through spiritual work - which is something greater and more significant"?

Hi SonOfTheGods, Thanks for highlighting Jesus's connection to Melchizedek. I think it is a meaningful point relevant to the difference (and nearness to God/Tao) that he brought. A few words from The Gospel of Thomas that would seem to relate... 28. Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty. But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways." 16. Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone." 10. Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."

I would agree with you that human evolution and development is a very uneven kind of thing. I have found that as one spiritually progresses there is corresponding shift at a cellular and DNA level (part of the kundalini process). This expansion creates a greater potential for energy/light to be "held" in the human form/body. When there are children, this expanded potential is passed on. As you said, ultimately it is up to the person to unlock the potential, but not all bodies/forms have the same starting potential. Regarding the concept of the "Holy Grail", I have found it more common in gnostic Christian traditions to represent the "Shekinah of the Messiah". The completion (or consort) of a Man (or Woman) as the primordial Adam. In the concept of Christian enlightenment, primordial Adam is beyond male and female separation (or contains both sexes). It is very similar to other traditions where gods are alway seen as having a consort or sometimes having both male and female sexual organs. The Gospel of Thomas describes it as follows... 22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

Hi Apech, I would agree with much of your post around the aspect of human evolution. The Holy Spirit (or God in creation) is always driving expansion. The pure desire to grow and expand, like with a flower growing in the Sun. I would describe it as that humans (and human potential) have been expanding in God/Tao. Before the coming of Jesus, masters in the world would reach a level of "nearness of God" and share the resulting light/nearness with their students. Very similar to the old computing paradigm of a mainframe with computers connected directly to it. Growing in God was mostly dependent on this master/student direct connection. The more one would surrender to/thru the master, the stronger the connection. With the coming of Jesus and his higher (or greater nearness to God) revelation, human potential (or local computer processing power) had expanded. Expanding the model from the past, Jesus cleared a layer of obstructions from God. In computer terms, not only was he a more powerful mainframe, but he also established peer to peer networking (person to person). This new community in Christ was available to help anyone who wanted to join the network (faith in Christ). Rather than just the lone person striving to connect to the mainframe, it was now possible for Christians to also work and grow together (network computer processing). Also, the cool thing is that there has recently been a new level of expansion in human potential. Best, Jeff

The words are describing in symbolic terms the meaning of true communion. Jesus is describing an advanced form of light transmission (or shared oneness/presence), similar to guru/divinity yoga. Historically, there have been two main different types of transmission. First, earth or Mother energy often called Shakipat (leading to Kundalini). And second, sharing of presence (or knowledge) which momentarily create a state of "clarity of mind". In communion, the "body" represent body/mother energy or "Kundalini". The "blood" represents spirit energy or "state of knowledge". In Christian terms, the state of knowledge is often also called "the peace that passes all human understanding". Bringing together both components greatly accelerates overall human development because you have the "kundalini" force pushing ongoing "clarity" rapidly forward, while the guru/master provides an ongoing "sharing" of peace (mental clarity) to help protect from the normal issues that can come from kundalini. This shared clarity or peace is also why many Christian's will describe a "top down" rather than a "bottom up" feeling to energy/kundalini. In more esoteric gnostic christian texts, it is often call things like the "bridal or marriage chamber". As in the Gospel of Thomas... 75. Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite." Also, from the Secret Gospel of Mary... 12. Disciples of Mary said to her, “We are going on a pilgrimage to the holy land so we might see where you and the Lord lived.” Mary said to them, “The holy land is wherever a child of Light goes, and it is where the child of Light abides. The holy land is where the Anointed and the soul are joined, it is the bridal chamber.” 23. Mary spoke, and said, “There is baptism, chrism and wedding feast, and there is the ransom and bridal chamber. Baptism is water, chrism is fire and the ransom is earth. The wedding feast is the air, for in the Spirit we shall meet the Anointed on the Day of Joy, and then the element of the bridal chamber shall be fully revealed. Everything the Lord accomplished he accomplished in a mystery, and the Anointed Bride is the mystery.” 48. Mary taught her disciples, saying, “The Aeons of Light are the handmaids of the Bride at the wedding feast, and the best man is the Son of Adam at the wedding; in the bridal chamber the soul acquires intimate acquaintance with the Anointed and becomes the Anointed. Until that time, sing and dance and rejoice, for it is to those who abide in joy that the Shekinah comes, and it is through her that you will enter the bridal chamber.” Best wishes, Jeff (edit - couple of word fixes)

Hi Apech, I will do my best to stay away from Dzogchen comparisons and try to stay focused on the Primordial path presented by Jesus as the High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek... Best, Jeff

Why don't you start us off?

I would agree. True Communion is incredibly profound and deep practice.

In another thread, I raised the concept that Jesus was also a Dzogchen Master. A member quoted the Lord's Prayer as a counter argument, implying that it bore no resemblance to Buddhism. A great challenge in the Christian tradition is that the original words were delivered to mostly uneducated Jews where much has been lost in language meaning and translation. Also. in the "institutionalizing" of certain texts and using Jesus's words to support the agenda of building Roman empire. The Aramaic Language has (like the Hebrew and Arabic) different levels of meaning. The words are organized and defined by a poetical system where different meanings of every word are possible. So, every line of the Lords Prayer could be translated into English in many different versions. As an example of how the intent of a passage can be changed, here is a translation (copied from another site) of the Lord's Prayer directly translated from the ancient Aramaic language into modern English. "This, then, is how you should pray:" ~Jesus, Matt 6:9 Abwûn "Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, d'bwaschmâja who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration. Nethkâdasch schmach May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest. Têtê malkuthach. Your Heavenly Domain approaches. Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha. Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense). Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna. Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên. detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others. Wela tachlân l'nesjuna Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), ela patzân min bischa. but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose. Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn. From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age. Amên. Sealed in trust, faith and truth.(I confirm with my entire being)

Hi SonsOfTheGod, I am not getting mad. I always enjoy a good discussion. Also, it seems like you have made your full position clear in your words above. Best regards, Jeff

You may want research the Hebrew and Aramaic original meaning of the word "fear". Think more respect and devotion. Or, if your prefer, the Holy Bible describes the meaning of fear itself... The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline (Proverbs 1:7). The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding (Psalm 111:10). The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding (Proverbs 9:10). Regards, Jeff

Hi SonOfTheGods, You are doing it again... Even at the beginning of the section Jesus says it is a parable.... Luke 19:11-27 KJV "And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Please put your quotes in appropriate context.

Hi SonOfTheGods, Now I definitely understand what you mean by literal... The passage is about showing how the power of faith can transcend cultural and religious prejudice. Somehow very fitting for our discussion... Best wishes, Jeff

Hi SonOfTheGods, Very disappointing on how you only took a limited section of the passage to create a misleading picture. Here is the full text... Matthew 15:22-28 KJV "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Best wishes on your path.

Hi Alwayson, I thought you might appreciate Father Baron's stating the Catholic Churchs position regarding the perception of God in the Old Testement. www.wordonfire.org/WoF-Blog/WoF-Blog/April-2010/Father-Barron-and-Dr-Scott-Hahn-the-Old-Testament-.aspx Regards, Jeff p.s. I am not Catholic, so it won't hurt my feelings if you don't like the video.

Hi SonOfTheGods, Interesting comments, but your focus seems to be on the Old Testement and in taking the words literally. This thread is focused on the broader meaning of The Lord's Prayer and more generally the words of Jesus. Do you have any examples supporting your positions on things like denigrating women in Jesus's words in the Gospels? Or, more broadly in any other texts of Jesus's words like in the Gospel of Thomas? It would be helpful if you could provide some support in Jesus's words for your positions. Thanks, Jeff

As the OP, I give you full athority to give the thread your best shot. What do you have to say? Regards, Jeff

Hi Clarity, Thank you for sharing your perspective. I would definitely agree that our thinking is very slow compared to insight. I have found that knowledge, truth (or insight) are found in the "inner heart". The "translation" of insight to actionable items in the mind is always challenging, as one is then subject to the deep subconscious energy structures and obstructions. Concepts of duality like separate beings, suffering, judgement, expectations, strong and weak enter the perception of the moment. Thanks again for the earlier ethics discussion. Best wishes on your path. Jeff

Hi Clarity, What is a "failure" weakness? Thanks, Jeff

Hi Chris, Since you asked... Honestly no, I did not feel that it was accurate. I have pretty good clarity into myself and my ongoing issues/obstructions. If you take a look at your defined list of my weaknesses... "...thinking is weak... ...weakness coming from "hiding"... ...Being precautious.... ... can only be truly understood if you do it... ... having negative perception of people doing good deeds... ...fear of losing control... ...Lets correct you for feeling, perception, intuition and answers, actions, results and manifestitations since you have relied too much on the intellectual mind to get answers and also on external authority for insight (weakness there)... ...weakness around looking people in the eyes... ...Related to hiding your personality, corrected..." they all seem to be related and supporting of your original perception of my "having negative perception of people doing good deeds" or specifically that I was somehow being insulting related to my original question (and example) around the ethics of helping someone without asking. Best wishes, Jeff p.s. looking people in the eye and negotiating with them is a big part of my day to day job. (edit - added p.s.)

Hi Chris, Quite a picture you paint... Enjoy the day. Jeff

Hi Clarity, Thank you for your thoughtful responses. Also, thanks for the discussion on my ethics of "helping" concept/question. As you said, it seems like it makes sense if it feels like the right thing to do in the moment. Best wishes, Jeff

Hi Chris, What did you mean by "hiding"? Regards, Jeff

Depends on the power and technique, but my point was really about "unintended effects" that could result from the action. Thanks, Jeff

Hi R V, Very interesting concept... Would not to truly know that you are in a neutral state, you have to be "enlightened"? Best regards, Jeff