Jeff

Thank you for pointing this out. Do you know if this is common with Dzogchen practioners in general?

Wow. Reading this thread, I would have to agree with Creation. He does seem to think it is all about gross level human biology. Hard to believe with CNN's books. No wonder there has been so much confusion in my discussions with them. Alwayson - Do you partake in CNN's transmissions? Anything on the energy body?

It is very good.

Hopefully, the energy/light component was shown a little in my other response. If not, I am happy to discuss any specific questions. On "clear mind"... Dzogchen, unlike many traditions, has sort of two levels (with the rainbow body). I believe many today who declare "enlightenment", have only reached clear/quiet mind. It also references a current discussion I am having with Vmarco in a different thread.

Definitions of light and energy vary widely, but regarding energy... From "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu The individual is made up of three aspects: body, voice and mind. ... Through the material dimension of the body we can understand its energy, or the "voice". ... The energy of the individual is closely linked to the external energy, and each can influence the other. ... It is possible to influence the external energy... Such activity is actually the result of having control of one's own energy. Also... The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its characteristic is that it manifests without interruption. The explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure, material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests are described. More... In Dzogchen, too, various methods of using energy are practiced, but these are not based on the activity of the mind. Energy, that is beyond the mind, is often called light.

Thanks for posting the reference to the essay.

Hi TI, Always good to hear from you. I very much enjoy my discussions with Malcolm & the guys at Dharmawheel. My early difficulty in discussions with them was that I did not realize that none of them can feel any energy or light. My original goal had been to compare the completion stage practices of different cultures/traditions. Ultimately, I was able to get the information I was looking for from other sources. I appreciate Dzogchen, because the descriptions/texts mirror much of my experience. Also, CNN very clearly describes things from an energy/light perspective. Additionally, he goes beyond "clear mind" in his descriptions. I hope you are well. Best wishes with your path.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response. Hawking & Hartie are brilliant physicists, but have not shown that they can percieve beyond the gross layers of existence. They are operating in the framework of the six senses. Additionally, they have no "good" explanation for why the growth of the universe is accelerating. Acceleration requires energy. Postulating God is just as valid as a closed loop universe theory. On Jed, I highly recommend that you read his 3rd book (or at least don't quote him in the future), because he completely undermines your position. I also agree that non-dual light is the right way to approach it, as I have been saying that from the beginning of the discussion. (Why I asked you if you could percieve it?) The issue is that the sutra is not describing "gross light" of the gross percieved reality. That is why it cannot be percieved by the six senses. It can only be percieved after one has moved "beyond mind". Also, there is not just one type of non-dual light (more of a spectrum). Finally, I am also a big fan of using hearing as the approach. I think that listening most naturally leads to a calm mind. Relaxing music can be particularly effective in a busy schedule. If one "just listens", you will notice the music actually seems to get louder.

Thanks for the fun discussion. Jed (books 1 & 2) is a classic example of someone who stuck at (or near) the level of "clear mind". This level of self realization is much more the "beginning" than the end. If one reads his 3rd book, you see that he is starting to break out of his mind trap as he begins to describe "human adulthood". His longing for human adulthood is his beginning to perceive the "light". If one reads the 3rd book with an open mind, you can see that he pretty much logically recants books 1 & 2, but his ego is obviously still in play as he tries to hold the three books together. Also, while I am not trying to define/defend a creator in our discussion, there is no modern physics that denies the possibility. In addition, the recent work on Higg's particles/fields shows that things in "existence" grow from nothing. Most modern physicists also support the concept of parallel universes with our universe continuing to expand at accelerating rates. This acceleration requires "energy" from outside the "universe" to support it. (edit - name reduction for SereneBlue)

Welcome to the party!

Hi Daojones, What you are experiencing is very common. i have friends who have spent 6-9 months in that state. Often one finds themselves there because your psyche needs some peaceful healing time. The fear/issue is too much to face at the moment. Staying in the present is a great approach. Letting it "kill you", can potentially be giving strength to the fear. It is better to try to just "accept it" and eventually it loses power. If you are looking for a practice that can help... Take an example memory of the core fear and imagine it outside of your body. Then zap it with divine light and allow whichever Being/Saint you believe in take it away. It also helps, if they take it in some silly/goofy way. (for my kids, it was the TV dinosaur Barney chomping it). Humor helps with fear.

Hi Vmarco, In my question about your whether you perceive the light in daily life or meditation, you made assumptions and extrapolated (rather than answer my question). Your assumptions about my perception on meditation were incorrect. One does not make assumptions while residing in the present. Assumptions are a projection of past memories into an "expected" future. That is an aspect of ego/mind. I agree with your overall description of meditation. Meditation is a "contrived state" of mind. With a "calm mind", there is no difference between meditation and normal life. In general, Buddhists do not worry about energy/light until they have reached the state of "calm mind". (They avoid/ignore the earlier states of body & mind light/energy focusing on clarity of mind). Beyond the level of "calm mind", one can perceive beyond the six senses. The concept of the "speed of light" becomes meaningless. Universal oneness with quantum entanglement is a better description of the "indescribable". In Buddhism, starting to notice this is part of the "completion stage" and is sometimes called building the "light body" or "rainbow body". Physical light is at the "gross level" and is nowhere near the same as spiritual/rainbow light. Existence "exists", but it is perceived/felt differently depending of the "depth" of perception. A true Buddha has "integrated" all layers of perception. And... can perceive outside (or all of) time.

Why? Can not Shen be felt as "light"? It is just beyond "mind".

In the traditions were I have seen two levels... Illumination is clear mind. Often called realization of the self. One begins to experience spiritual light (beyond mind). Enlightenment is Buddhahood. One is the light.

Is it? What if one is not looking for or indifferent to the error? (like MH was) Anyways(implied meaning:) ), have a good evening.

Like you, I am sharing my experiences (not making anything up). I am not Buddhist (more of a light/energy guy), but i would agree that as one dives deep into what could be called the pure state, there is no "time". Time has a specific energy feel as you go very deep. But, for me the pure stuff is bubbling with potential. That spilling over is what gives us creation/reality. The pure stuff is not "separate" from existence, with all manifest (apart of) from it. A question... Do you experience the "light" during your normal day or only during meditation? Also, the "light that I am" has no direct correlation to light in what we call existence, so I don't see the usefulness of the analogy. Thanks. P.s. no beliefs... Just exploration...

That was not your logic structure... You said... "thus my claim: One who finds no fault with the faulty shares in that understanding..." Stating that if someone doesn't disagree, they automatically agree.

That is not logically correct. One can just be indifferent or not feel the need to judge someone else's belief. It does not mean that they support the belief. P.s. I apologize to everyone who responded to my post (page 1) for not responding back. Was travelling and somehow missed this thread. No point going back... Next time...

Malcolm originally recommended it to me as part of a dharmawheel discussion we had.

Also, if you are coming from a Taoist (energy based) perspective, I would highly recommend Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State". It is an excellent overview of Dzogchen and how it is different from other traditions.

Even in the pure moment, energy exists as potential. (edit - deleted question. reread first post in thread)

Thank you for describing the four main types of energy. Jing Qi Shen Primoridal Shen Can you give any further information about the energies? How they relate to the world? Thanks.

Your responses are so silly and ridiculous there is no point in further discussion. Have fun with your vendetta.

Obviously, you would have a banning notice from Yogani. He would do the honorable thing and explain his actions, even if his disagreed with you.

The UK is a little out of my neighborhood (US for me). There is no logical reason that you are requiring an in person meeting, other than as an excuse to hide behind the fact that there is no such message. On smiles, unlike some, I take my statements and facts seriously.